Back In The Game?

[letsgojackets]

I personally think it will never happen, why? Because Bettman is in charge. Whatever makes sense, doesn't make sense to that knucklehead. The NHL fans have been calling for his head on a plate for years but to no avail. Personally, I would love to see Phoenix go to Winnipeg and be renamed the Jets. No other name in Winnipeg would make sense. As long as Bettman is in charge there will be lots of teams in the Southern US with a handful of fans per team, where there are lots of places in Canada that would flourish with a NHL team. After wait 20+ years to finally get a team (Columbus) I can only imagine what Winnipeg fans are going through.

[CJR]

2) Did Houston apply for the late 90's expansion? Hard to give a franchise to a market that didn't apply for one.

They were one of six finalists for the teams that ended up going to Nashville, Atlanta, St. Paul and Columbus.

Oklahoma City was the other.

From OKC's Journal Record, February 20, 1997:

While Bettman would not say who was favored, hockey experts around the country have said Atlanta and Houston are virtual locks for a team, while Nashville is also considered a strong favorite because of its lucrative proposal that would pay a $20 million bonus to any team landed. Minneapolis-St. Paul is considered by these same pols to be less of a competitor for an expansion team and more of a favorite to land the Hartford Whalers, who are rumored to be moving. That leaves Columbus, which has no arena, and Oklahoma City. Columbus officials recently scheduled a special sales tax election for May to fund construction of a new arena. If the election fails however, Oklahoma City's chances improve, according to Bettman. "If the referendum doesn't pass it cripples or hurts the chances of a franchise going there," Bettman said.

Interesting how things turned out.

That was also the expansion round that ended Portland's chances, as the NHL pissed off Paul Allen in the process.

[rams80]

Now I'm really confused. Who lead the ownership group, because that might have something to do with it.

That or the legal and legislative wrangling over this might have cost Houston a team.

EDIT-further reading of the article claims this was the case.

Otherwise, they should have gotten a team. Very large market that you could share with the NBA, good past with hockey, and it had an IHL team to drive out of business (if you subscribe to that theory of the NHL's market choices. )

[TFoA]

So I see the two monsters were merged...now I'm confused.

[dfwabel]

Now I'm really confused. Who lead the ownership group, because that might have something to do with it.

That or the legal and legislative wrangling over this might have cost Houston a team.

EDIT-further reading of the article claims this was the case.

Otherwise, they should have gotten a team. Very large market that you could share with the NBA, good past with hockey, and it had an IHL team to drive out of business (if you subscribe to that theory of the NHL's market choices. )

Houston big problems was the facility, Compaq Center (nee The Summit) at the time of this decision regarding expansion. Atlanta was in the process of replacing The Omni with Philips Arena, Houston was not even close to the same pace of replacing The Summit. McNair was in the potential ownership group, but getting the NFL back would have been my priority if I was a Houstonian.

[DEAD!]

So I see the two monsters were merged...now I'm confused.

Or scared because it's now one really big monster...

[Island_Style]

So I see the two monsters were merged...now I'm confused.

Or scared because it's now one really big monster...

Monster squared.

[tp49]

Something's gotta be up with that Reinsdorf thing, and I can't believe more people haven't smelled the rat. Look. Jerry's no idiot. Well, I mean, he's an idiot, as in "you idiot! you can't break up the Bulls!" or "no, you idiot, one Sox championship isn't worth more than six Bulls championships," but he doesn't throw his money away, and this, this, is a textbook example of wasting money. This is the same guy who has professed to the media on more than one occasion that he isn't going to pay top dollar for present or future Bulls because he refuses to pay the luxury tax. If he won't open the checkbook for Ben Gordon, why would he be slated to buy a failed hockey team that is hundreds of millions of dollars in debt with no readily apparent return on investment? That doesn't add up.

If he's interested it's probably so he can use the losses as a tax write off.

[IceCap]

The Leafs, while understandably worried, have little to nothing to lose from a team in Hamilton. Most of the fans they would draw would be either people who don't support the Leafs anyway or people who have a hard time getting Leafs tickets, and thus their loss wouldn't mean a thing to the Leafs' cash flow. The Sabres have more to lose then the Leafs do.

So long as Maple Leafs ownership/management is worried that they have anything to lose to a Hamilton-based NHL franchise, no matter how "little" it might be, the Leafs organization is going to fight such a development tooth-and-nail. They want the marketplace to themselves... period. Further, the "losses" the Leafs feel that they'll suffer needn't be concrete. So long as Maple Leafs management believes that it will be harmed by the existence of a rival franchise in Hamilton, the team will oppose such a move.

Combine that with the fact that Balsillie's brash manner rubs many of the "older-guard" NHL owners the wrong way and I'd say that despite the Coyotes' dire predicament, the chances of the team ending up in Southern Ontario under Balsillie's control are slim. They may not be in Phoenix much longer, but barring a sea-change in the mindset of the league's owners I wouldn't bet on them ending-up in Hamilton or Kitchener-Waterloo.

Reading is both informative and fun

Just saying that I've said numerous occasions in the two threads (now one I can see) devoted to this subject that while I would prefer the team to move to Hamilton or another southern Ontario market, ultimately I just want to see the team not die. And that's exactly what they're doing in Phoenix. If that means Hamilton, fantastic. If that means KC or another market that promises stable ownership and fans in the seats, be it in the States or Canada, that's fantastic too. Just get them out of that desert death trap.

And of course, to reiterate, I've said that before.

As for Balsillie, he'll be good for the league. He's proven he's devoted to the NHL and the running of a team. Really, one ideal situation would be to move the Coyotes to KC and then let Balsillie buy the Leafs.

Well there are Coyotes in southern Ontario. So if they wanted to keep the name, it would have some merit.

As for the name Jets? It's always possible, especially seeing as it is part of the team's history. I'm sure "Hamilton Jets" would irritate a lot of Winnipeg fans, however.

I really like the name rams80 came up with. The "Hamilton Arrows" after the Avro Arrow. It's location appropriate, it plays homage to the team's past life as the Jets, especially if using a similar colour scheme, it's a nice nod to something that's become a bit of Canadian legend, and I always felt the RCAF roundel would make a great alternate logo

The safe bet would be Hamilton Tigers, which while very clichéd, is something I wouldn't be opposed to.

No, the Hamilton Arrows IS NOT location appropriate. The team would have to be in Mississauga (Malton) to be location appropriate

Well it's all relative. The plane was made in southern Ontario, which is enough I think to make the name work, given the nice nod it would give to the team's past history as the Jets.

[DEAD!]

Well there are Coyotes in southern Ontario. So if they wanted to keep the name, it would have some merit.

As for the name Jets? It's always possible, especially seeing as it is part of the team's history. I'm sure "Hamilton Jets" would irritate a lot of Winnipeg fans, however.

I really like the name rams80 came up with. The "Hamilton Arrows" after the Avro Arrow. It's location appropriate, it plays homage to the team's past life as the Jets, especially if using a similar colour scheme, it's a nice nod to something that's become a bit of Canadian legend, and I always felt the RCAF roundel would make a great alternate logo

The safe bet would be Hamilton Tigers, which while very clichéd, is something I wouldn't be opposed to.

No, the Hamilton Arrows IS NOT location appropriate. The team would have to be in Mississauga (Malton) to be location appropriate

Well it's all relative. The plane was made in southern Ontario, which is enough I think to make the name work, given the nice nod it would give to the team's past history as the Jets.

So, if I happen to buy a team and move it to Mississauga, I can name them then Steelers as homage to the great steel industry there.... ok.... had the team been located at 427/407 area (then it would not be in Mississauga ), then it would have been more appropriate because it's close enough to the airport.

[IceCap]

Ok. Now you're just getting ridiculous. The Coyotes haven't had a chance? It was a valid argument when Nashville was thinking of picking up and heading north, they hadn't even existed for a decade.

With Phoenix they've had what, thirteen years? How many more years do you want this team to bleed money?

It's not about years in existence, it's about years with a desirable product. They had no more than four of those at the beginning of the tenure, and those were nothing special.

Beyond that, other than being a team, they've given fans no reason to come out.

The Coyotes have had a chance and not done anything with it. The Phoenix market, however, really has not. Like I said before, that same type of ownership for 10 years would draw every bit as few fans here in St. Louis, but that's not an indictment of the market.

I'll simplify it.

You won't convince me that Phoenix can't be a good NHL market until they've had about 5 years of playoff caliber teams including one or two deep playoff runs.

Until that happens, it's a no brainer that any new market won't draw fans.

Now if you just don't want to put the effort into new markets, that's a whole 'nother view point. But what the NHL has done in places like Phoenix, Atlanta, and Miami is make half the effort by awarding teams, but not the other half by striving to make those teams desirable products (though I'm not blaming the league entirely for that, most of that blame falls on each of the individual owners).

It has nothing to do with a lack of effort in "non-traditional" markets, and it has nothing to do, really, with putting a playoff calibre team on the ice when you get right down to it.

The problem here is that you're coming from an ideological perspective. In that "hey, if we give fans in Phoenix a reason to care, they probably will, and we shouldn't give up until they've had that chance."

Which is great. And true to an extent.

The problem is that you're letting that blind you from the very real situation the team finds itself in. The team is bleeding money. They have been since day one. For thirteen years they've NEVER posted a profit. Both the team's immediate prospects and the current economic situation don't make for a very promising future.

Have Phoenix fans been given a reason to support the team? Unfortunately that's irrelevant because the team's in a dire financial situation, one they can't get out of in the current market.

Will five years of playoff hockey change that? Yes, probably. It's not as simple as saying "in five years from now it'll work" however. First the team has to be built into one. And that's the problem. They'll still suck even as they'll getting their act together. Then once it all finally clicks they need five years of continual success before they develop a following.

So that's eight years, at the least, that they'll still post financial losses. Combined with the current losses from the past 13 years, and the team simply can't afford to try and make the market work. In an ideal world where money is infinite, sure, let them stick it out and see if they can build a fanbase with a consistent playoff team.

In the real world, however, it simply doesn't make sense, the team's lost to much money in the market already. Much longer in that market, doing the same numbers, isn't acceptable from a business perspective.

Well there are Coyotes in southern Ontario. So if they wanted to keep the name, it would have some merit.

As for the name Jets? It's always possible, especially seeing as it is part of the team's history. I'm sure "Hamilton Jets" would irritate a lot of Winnipeg fans, however.

I really like the name rams80 came up with. The "Hamilton Arrows" after the Avro Arrow. It's location appropriate, it plays homage to the team's past life as the Jets, especially if using a similar colour scheme, it's a nice nod to something that's become a bit of Canadian legend, and I always felt the RCAF roundel would make a great alternate logo

The safe bet would be Hamilton Tigers, which while very clichéd, is something I wouldn't be opposed to.

No, the Hamilton Arrows IS NOT location appropriate. The team would have to be in Mississauga (Malton) to be location appropriate

Well it's all relative. The plane was made in southern Ontario, which is enough I think to make the name work, given the nice nod it would give to the team's past history as the Jets.

So, if I happen to buy a team and move it to Mississauga, I can name them then Steelers as homage to the great steel industry there.... ok.... had the team been located at 427/407 area (then it would not be in Mississauga ), then it would have been more appropriate because it's close enough to the airport.

The difference being that the fictional Mississauga team has no past history with a steel themed nickname. The Coyotes used to be the Jets, making the name Arrows that much more fitting.

Dallas may be the next NHL team to file for bankruptcy according to the Toronto Star

Link

Boy, those dreaded Coyotes fall, and the Canadian sports media thinks they can get the rest of those cursed Southern markets to fall like dominoes, don't they? Can't wait for the "Ducks to Moose Jaw" bandwagon to get up and running.

I don't think Stars fans have a reason for concern here. If Hicks fails, someone (Cuban?) will gladly take the Stars off his hands.

I'd like that actually. Shiny gold alternates for the Stars. It needs to happen.

Seriously though, I think Dallas is the perfect example of how to do southern hockey right. Losing them would be a real hit to the NHL.

[IceCap]

sorry, dp

[DEAD!]

Well there are Coyotes in southern Ontario. So if they wanted to keep the name, it would have some merit.

As for the name Jets? It's always possible, especially seeing as it is part of the team's history. I'm sure "Hamilton Jets" would irritate a lot of Winnipeg fans, however.

I really like the name rams80 came up with. The "Hamilton Arrows" after the Avro Arrow. It's location appropriate, it plays homage to the team's past life as the Jets, especially if using a similar colour scheme, it's a nice nod to something that's become a bit of Canadian legend, and I always felt the RCAF roundel would make a great alternate logo

The safe bet would be Hamilton Tigers, which while very clichéd, is something I wouldn't be opposed to.

No, the Hamilton Arrows IS NOT location appropriate. The team would have to be in Mississauga (Malton) to be location appropriate

Well it's all relative. The plane was made in southern Ontario, which is enough I think to make the name work, given the nice nod it would give to the team's past history as the Jets.

So, if I happen to buy a team and move it to Mississauga, I can name them then Steelers as homage to the great steel industry there.... ok.... had the team been located at 427/407 area (then it would not be in Mississauga ), then it would have been more appropriate because it's close enough to the airport.

The difference being that the fictional Mississauga team has no past history with a steel themed nickname. The Coyotes used to be the Jets, making the name Arrows that much more fitting.

But, you see, I don't give a flying what the nickname history is. Hamilton has nothing to do with the Arrow much like Mississauga had nothing to do with the steel industry. You can name them the Jets, for all I care, given they do have an airport.

[IceCap]

As is the case in almost everything else there's two realities. The truth and the "truth."

The "truth" is not only the one most people tend to subscribe to, it's also the one that makes for the better marketing opportunities.

Ultimately though, Hamilton Tigers remains my top choice.

[DEAD!]

As is the case in almost everything else there's two realities. The truth and the "truth."

The "truth" is not only the one most people tend to subscribe to, it's also the one that makes for the better marketing opportunities.

Kinda like religion....

[IceCap]

Pretty much.

[expos4ever]

Houston always gets overlooked. 6th most populous metropolitan area (soon to be 5th, larger than Philadelphia), currently the fastest growing city, largest metro area without a team, a team could settle in the Toyota Center (also home of the Rockets), and a stable economy. Sports teams in Texas always get supported well. A team in Houston could not possibly be worse than Atlanta, Nashville, Phoenix, or Miami.

Of course, the "Texas isn't a hockey market" arguement will arise, despite the success of the Stars.

I don't understand why bettman gave franchises to atlanta,nashville,miami,and tampa.but none for houston.in other words:SCREW YOU GARY BETTMAN!!!!!!!!!!!

Two points....

1) Florida and Tampa Bay were awarded before he became Commissioner

2) Did Houston apply for the late 90's expansion? Hard to give a franchise to a market that didn't apply for one.

yeah,they were finalist in the 98' exansion

[Linus]

As DEAD! has said, Hamilton Arrows is a terrible name choice for the team. Its been stated the plane (or jet whatever the 'Arrow' is) was built in Mississauga and not Hamilton. Plus, if Winnipeg were to get a team down the road, Im sure they will bring back the Jets as their name.

[rams80]

As DEAD! has said, Hamilton Arrows is a terrible name choice for the team. Its been stated the plane (or jet whatever the 'Arrow' is) was built in Mississauga and not Hamilton. Plus, if Winnipeg were to get a team down the road, Im sure they will bring back the Jets as their name.

Well, I'd buy a jersey.

Of course, I'd also buy a Hamilton Destroyers jersey.

[DEAD!]

As DEAD! has said, Hamilton Arrows is a terrible name choice for the team. Its been stated the plane (or jet whatever the 'Arrow' is) was built in Mississauga and not Hamilton. Plus, if Winnipeg were to get a team down the road, Im sure they will bring back the Jets as their name.

To be fair, the Arrow was built in Malton years before present-day Mississauga was formed. The Arrows really is a good name, but, it should not based on the plane. If it was, say, based an arrowhead or a spear, then fine with me.