Back In The Game?

[Brian in Boston]

I think he is the problem. He put the teams there, and the whole time they have been there he has been trying to fix them. He is just to ing stupid to realize that the moves he made were wrong. He is also too stupid to realize that hockey is not working in the south.

Gary Bettman is a far too convenient scapegoat for all of the NHL's so-called ills - i.e. expansion, expansion to "non-traditional" markets, etc.

Commissioner Bettman doesn't wield absolute, unilateral authority over the NHL. In point of fact, he is a contracted employee who serves at the whim of the league's owners. Bettman doesn't "put the teams" anywhere. The league's owners, represented by the Board of Governors, determine where expansion franchises will be granted. The league's owners decide whether or not a franchise will be allowed to relocate into a particular market.

As for Bettman's spearheading the NHL's move into the South and "non-traditional", warm-weather markets, that ship had sailed before his arrival. The NHL's owners had granted franchises to South Florida, Tampa Bay and San Jose before Bettman showed-up on the scene.

[The_Admiral]

I know what Bettman's plan is, but it's f-a-i-l-i-n-g.

[Brian in Boston]

I know what Bettman's plan is, but it's f-a-i-l-i-n-g.

Dubbing it "Bettman's Plan" is far too simplistic.

The NHL's owners had started down the latest expansion road before Bettman's arrival on the scene in February of 1993. Why? Because said owners recognized that collecting and splitting expansion fees was a way to make cash that didn't require them to do any heavy lifting. Said owners had also committed to expanding the league's footprint into so-called "non-traditional" markets before was hired as commissioner; franchises such as the Florida Panthers, Tampa Bay Lightning and San Jose Sharks were approved before Bettman's arrival.

Bettman serves the will of the NHL's owners. Direct your ire at them.

[Puck]

I know what Bettman's plan is, but it's f-a-i-l-i-n-g.

Dubbing it "Bettman's Plan" is far too simplistic.

The NHL's owners had started down the latest expansion road before Bettman's arrival on the scene in February of 1993. Why? Because said owners recognized that collecting and splitting expansion fees was a way to make cash that didn't require them to do any heavy lifting. Said owners had also committed to expanding the league's footprint into so-called "non-traditional" markets before was hired as commissioner; franchises such as the Florida Panthers, Tampa Bay Lightning and San Jose Sharks were approved before Bettman's arrival.

Bettman serves the will of the NHL's owners. Direct your ire at them.

I would remove San Jose from your argument, replace it with Anaheim.

The San Jose/Minnesota North Stars is its own situation.

[Linus]

Whats with all the St. Louis fans supporting Phoenix?

Seriously...

[Lee.]

Whats with all the St. Louis fans supporting Phoenix?

Seriously...

Is this not allowed for some reason?

[josh_cat_eyes]

So, if its the owners that approve the expansion teams, then why does Gary Betman keep on insisting that the league is NOT going to expand or relocate. Why is it always him that looks like an idiot saying that.

[Shane Does Art]

This whole "does Phoenix want hockey" thing sort of reminds me of when we'd loan, or not loan, video games out to each other as kids.

"Hey, can I borrow your copy of Street Fighter II?"

"Aw, do you have to? I love that game!"

"Yeah, but you just bought Street Fighter II Turbo and play that instead."

"Well yeah but sometimes I like to play the old one."

"Oh yeah? Like when?"

"...yesterday. A week ago. I think."

"Look. You won't even know I have it, because you won't play it."

"Sure I will!"

"WHY?"

"Well, I might want to."

"WHEN?"

"Eventually."

"You're being ridiculous. Fine. I won't loan you any games."

"Fine, take the stupid game."

15 years later, I still have that kid's copy of Street Fighter II.

I always hated that kid.

[oakland ehs]

Except there's no Milwaukee analog to help funnel money into the team in the province. And Wisconsin has 5 and a half times the population to support a team with 33 fewer homedates.

So no, they wouldn't have been the NHL's Packers, as they would have died within 3 years of moving.

While I wouldn't be dumb enough to say that they'd exist today, I think had the team moved to Saskatoon, it would have survived into the very early 90's.

The 80's was just about hockey and selling tickets. I think hey would have done just as well as the clubs in Calgary and Edmonton as far as selling tickets.

It wasn't nearly as much about merchandise, naming rights, and big TV deals as it is today.

[rams80]

So, if its the owners that approve the expansion teams, then why does Gary Betman keep on insisting that the league is NOT going to expand or relocate. Why is it always him that looks like an idiot saying that.

Because the owners pay him to take the heat and attention away from them?

And it works!

(Also, he's just relaying the message from them.)

[STL FANATIC]

How long should the NHL have to subsidize this team? 5 years? 10 years? More? I just don't see it as a worthwhile investment for the NHL in these times of economic incertitude.

And for that reason, I would understand the move some.

But I won't support the notion that Phoenix is a failed hockey market when it was hockey that failed Phoenix.

[Gordie]

Ottawa seemed to have little problem getting their own fanbase even though they're quite close to Montreal. Now they did end up bankrupt at one point but I really cannot remember what the circumstances were behind that (owner? lack of attendence? etc.)

Bankruptcy was a tactic necessary to relieve the team of a heavy debtload.

Fan support was never an issue. In fact, the Senators had a lot of good things going for them. Good management, excellent team, good attendance, good corporate support, they owned their arena, and they owned the land the arena was built on.

Their financial problems went back to their inception. The team was bought, and the arena was built, mostly with borrowed money. The original plan was for Bruce Firestone's company, Terrace, to build the Palladium west of Kanata, in what was then mostly farmland, develop the surrounding area, and the increased value of the newly-developed area would be the source from which Terrace could repay it's lenders. The reality was that the government of Ontario not only refused the development plan, but made Terrace scale back the arena plan, reducing it's capacity and eliminating an on-site hotel. To add insult to injury, the government then required the developer to pay for all infrastructure costs related to the arena's construction.

New investment was required for the team to survive, so it was taken over by a group led by Rod Bryden. With heavy debt payments eating up revenues, and a downturn in the energy and tech sectors in 2003 forcing lenders to call in loans, Bryden declared bankruptcy and sold the team to Eugene Melnyk. According to the CBC, Melnyk's team/arena debt is now 1/8th of what it was under Bryden. (estimated at 50 million dollars instead of 400 million, circa 2004)

[cajunaggie08]

The Aeros get decent support too. There have been occasions where the Toyota Center has been a sell out for a minor league hockey game. Houston would have an NHL team if the WHA Aeros would have lasted another year. So give Houston a shot. It cant be any worse than atlanta

As has been said before, supporting an AHL team and supporting an NHL team are two completely different things.

What support do you have that Houston WOULD have got a team? Is there evidence from the then NHL commish that Houston would have gotten a team?

I'm not the biggest supporter of Bettman, but i am glad he's finally come around to STOP expanding and relocating, and get down to the buisness of solidifying the franchises that they have in place. It's sad that it's the threat of his latest expansion teams moving that has sparked him into action.

I do hope that the situation changes for these teams, and that they get the complete fan support and municipal support they need to survive. If they cannot gain that support to survive, then I hope Bettman, the owners and the league do what they have to in order to put the team in a position to succeed.

The WHA Aeros folded one year before the NHL bought out the WHA in 1979 and merged most of the teams into the NHL.

[Quillz]

Isn't the Phoenix Coyotes the team that Wayne Gretzky co-owns or something?

How successful have they been? When is the last time they made the postseason?

[Brian in Boston]

So, if its the owners that approve the expansion teams, then why does Gary Betman keep on insisting that the league is NOT going to expand or relocate. Why is it always him that looks like an idiot saying that.

Because the owners pay him to take the heat and attention away from them?

And it works!

(Also, he's just relaying the message from them.)

BINGO!

[rams80]

Isn't the Phoenix Coyotes the team that Wayne Gretzky co-owns or something?

How successful have they been? When is the last time they made the postseason?

Considering your avatar, I would have thought you would have been on top of that.

/Gretzky's stake in the franchise is rather small at the moment.

[Dante_X]

Dallas may be the next NHL team to file for bankruptcy according to the Toronto Star

Link

[Panthers]

The NHL has screwed up leadership all the way down the line. Don't get me wrong. I love hockey and been a Rangers' fan all my life. But 30 teams in the NHL? And did you catch the new Sporting News that has a q & a with the commish? He takes credit for the rise in viewership, etc. although at one point last year Sports Illustrated referred to Versus as the NHL's "subterranian outlet".

Let's face it. In this economic climate, 30 teams are too much. Get rid of Phoenix, Atlanta, Tampa, Florida, Nashville, Carolina. Although morally I was against the relocation of Quebec and Winnipeg, Quebec had to move. And now that I have read about the Winnipeg situation, I can only think Robert Moses (he pushed the Dodgers out of Brooklyn and the Giants out of Manhattan). To the dude who thinks Hamilton will cut into Buffalo's revenue, I got news for you. Nothing sells like a rivalry and Buffalo-Hamilton-Toronto would make for some real nice battles on the ice. Think Devils-Rangers-Islanders. Now that the Devils are in the Pru Center in Newark, did you know the Rangers and Devils are separated by no more than 12 stops on the PATH train? Half an hour door to door, maximum.

No matter how much its pushed, hockey just won't work in certain areas, period. I doubt it would work in Houston and by the way, Thomas Hicks is almost bankrupt. There go the Stars!

Put the 'Yotes in Hamilton. Name them the Tigers as a homage to the past (but won't the Ti-Cats kinda, sorta be upset?)

Having said that, I wonder what the NHL would look like today if Baltimore, not St. Louis, had gotten one of the six franchises when the NHL expanded in '66 or for that matter had St. Louis gone to Saskatoon.

[Gothamite]

I don't want to take us too far off-topic, but there is a whole lot wrong with one thing you said.

And now that I have read about the Winnipeg situation, I can only think Robert Moses (he pushed the Dodgers out of Brooklyn and the Giants out of Manhattan).

Moses was responsible for a lot, but this is simply not true. O'Malley bears at least as much (if not more) of the blame for the move of the Dodgers, and Stoneham's Giants just coulnd't compete financially. Moses didn't push either team anywhere - on the contrary, he fought to keep the Dodgers in New York City, even after O'Malley changed his mind and refused to relocate his club to Flushing Meadows.

That having been said, please continue your hockey rant.

[Brian in Boston]

To the dude who thinks Hamilton will cut into Buffalo's revenue, I got news for you. Nothing sells like a rivalry and Buffalo-Hamilton-Toronto would make for some real nice battles on the ice. Think Devils-Rangers-Islanders.

Yes, the Devils-Rangers-Islanders rivalry has done wonders for the Isles' bottom-line. Charles Wang and the team's fan-base are doing cartwheels over the state of the franchise.