Back In The Game?

[The_Admiral]

Now wait. You said Phoenix had their moments. You also said they've never done more than exist. Which is it?

[STL FANATIC]

Now wait. You said Phoenix had their moments. You also said they've never done more than exist. Which is it?

I've said all along they had moments at the beginning. I don't believe however that ownership ever gave much more effort than to exist.

The moments were as a result of talent already on the roster by and large.

[CC97]

Now wait. You said Phoenix had their moments. You also said they've never done more than exist. Which is it?

I've said all along they had moments at the beginning. I don't believe however that ownership ever gave much more effort than to exist.

Other than bringing in the greatest player of all time in to coach, and signing legendary American players such as Brett Hull and Jeremy Roenick... Curtis Joseph, Mike Gartner were also signed in to play there.

What I'm saying is the owners have made at least some effort to bring in the fans, even if it was in a Kansas City Athletics-esque fashion.

[DEAD!]

Now wait. You said Phoenix had their moments. You also said they've never done more than exist. Which is it?

I've said all along they had moments at the beginning. I don't believe however that ownership ever gave much more effort than to exist.

Other than bringing in the greatest player of all time in to coach, and signing legendary American players such as Brett Hull and Jeremy Roenick... Curtis Joseph, Mike Gartner were also signed in to play there.

What I'm saying is the owners have made at least some effort to bring in the fans, even if it was in a Kansas City Athletics-esque fashion.

Then, they should bring in Gordie Howe....

[STL FANATIC]

Now wait. You said Phoenix had their moments. You also said they've never done more than exist. Which is it?

I've said all along they had moments at the beginning. I don't believe however that ownership ever gave much more effort than to exist.

Other than bringing in the greatest player of all time in to coach, and signing legendary American players such as Brett Hull and Jeremy Roenick... Curtis Joseph, Mike Gartner were also signed in to play there.

What I'm saying is the owners have made at least some effort to bring in the fans, even if it was in a Kansas City Athletics-esque fashion.

But aside from JR (and MAYBE Gartner), those moves were much more hoping the namesake would bring in fans as opposed to how those players would help them win games (or not).

In 90% of North American sports markets, there is one way to establish (perhaps 100% since we're talking about establishing and not maintaining) a fanbase, and that is to win.

The Coyotes did a marginal amount of that in the late 90s, but not enough, and then they tore things apart and made horrible decisions for on and off the ice.

To me, abandoning markets like Phoenix and Atlanta (and Nashville) would not be about trying and failing. It would be about never really trying.

[The_Admiral]

Wrong again, the Predators have slowly but surely built a solid organization. There's another team that has tried to go about things the right way, with underwhelming results on the business side of things.

[STL FANATIC]

Wrong again, the Predators have slowly but surely built a solid organization. There's another team that has tried to go about things the right way, with underwhelming results on the business side of things.

Nashville is a totally different story, because you're right, they've managed things the right way.

They're different for a handful of reasons. I can go back to the Nashville threads from last year if you really want me to get into it.

But basically, they're a brand, 100% new hockey market. Completely new. They really had to build a fanbase from nowhere.

And while they did everything right to build a longterm competitive team, it meant years and years of poor product on the ice while they developed talent. That talent finally arrived a few years ago, and fan interest did go up. But they never got anywhere in the playoffs. ANYWHERE. Still, they seemed to have momentum.

And then? LOCKOUT. It played a large role in crushing the fanbase here in St. Louis. It's no surprise that it reversed all the good the couple of previous years had done in Nashville to a new fanbase.

Since the lockout, it's been more of the same. Competitive teams, one GREAT regular season team even, and then some playoff no-shows. Nothing to get excited about.

My advice to the Nashville franchise? On the ice stay the course. They'll build a winner, and if they can translate that to playoff wins, they'll draw fans. Off the ice, perhaps up the marketing.

So my suggestion that they have not tried in Nashville would indeed be incorrect. But to pull out of Nashville now would be premature. Nashville has always taken a long-term approach, and that needs to be the case with building the fan base as well. I believe with more of the same in on-ice management, that Nashville will be a solid market within 7-8 years.

An efforts been made, but to pull out before that effort is finished...that would be what I would compare to not making an effort at all.

[-kj]

Let us not forget that Edmonton was very close to moving south at at least one point in the late 90s. Borrowing from Wikipedia:

Trouble followed the team off the ice as well. For most of the 1990s, the Oilers were desperately trying to stay alive. In 1998, the team was nearly sold to Houston interests who sought to move the team, but before the sale was finalized, and with just hours left on the deadline, the Edmonton Investors Group, a consortium of 37 Edmonton-based owners, raised the funds to purchase the team from Pocklington, vowing to keep the Oilers in Edmonton. The Oilers received support in this endeavour from the NHL, which had already seen two Canadian teams (the Nordiques and Jets) move to the United States earlier in the decade.

Edmonton is a solid, solid hockey market. The Oilers have had financial troubles. Draw what conclusions you may from this.

[TO Pens Fan]

Found this on another board:

Lets call them the Hamilton Maple Leaves

I've always thought that Maple Leaves would make a hilarious name for another Toronto-area team.

If anyone feels the Coyotes should move back to Winnipeg and become the Jets, here's a site for you:

http://backtowinnipeg.blogspot.com/

[HedleyLamarr]

As a guy that's probably closest to the Thrashers on here, two words best describe the Thrashers moving to Hamilton: Ain't happening.

The TSN article is basically saying "rich guy wants to buy NHL team"....nothing major.

[wesdog82]

Houston always gets overlooked. 6th most populous metropolitan area (soon to be 5th, larger than Philadelphia), currently the fastest growing city, largest metro area without a team, a team could settle in the Toyota Center (also home of the Rockets), and a stable economy. Sports teams in Texas always get supported well. A team in Houston could not possibly be worse than Atlanta, Nashville, Phoenix, or Miami.

Of course, the "Texas isn't a hockey market" arguement will arise, despite the success of the Stars.

If it relocates...Hamilton Steelhawks. I remember going to Hamilton Steelhawks OHL games as a young kid. What a name!

Buuuuut....this is where my opinion comes in. I'm born and raised in Hamilton. I LOVE hockey. But, I do not want an NHL team here in Hamilton. I love driving to games in Buffalo where the tickets are a fraction of the price in Toronto. Tickets for a team in Hamilton will be a lot higher than Buffalo.

We do not deserve a team here. We have not supported any hockey team that has played here. The Bulldogs won the Calder Cup a few seasons ago and can't draw a respectable crowd. Out mayor should take his head out of his ass and think about repairing our football stadium where we currently have a team playing in the CFL (not wasting his time on a team that doesn't and will never exist) where a set of lights crashed to the ground over the winter.

Aghhhh I hate when this topic comes up every year at this time. I wish people in our city just supported what we already have.

Rant over.

[njmeadowlanders]

Let us not forget that Edmonton was very close to moving south at at least one point in the late 90s. Borrowing from Wikipedia:

Trouble followed the team off the ice as well. For most of the 1990s, the Oilers were desperately trying to stay alive. In 1998, the team was nearly sold to Houston interests who sought to move the team, but before the sale was finalized, and with just hours left on the deadline, the Edmonton Investors Group, a consortium of 37 Edmonton-based owners, raised the funds to purchase the team from Pocklington, vowing to keep the Oilers in Edmonton. The Oilers received support in this endeavour from the NHL, which had already seen two Canadian teams (the Nordiques and Jets) move to the United States earlier in the decade.

Edmonton is a solid, solid hockey market. The Oilers have had financial troubles. Draw what conclusions you may from this.

Houston Oilers?

[GMac]

Let us not forget that Edmonton was very close to moving south at at least one point in the late 90s. Borrowing from Wikipedia:

Trouble followed the team off the ice as well. For most of the 1990s, the Oilers were desperately trying to stay alive. In 1998, the team was nearly sold to Houston interests who sought to move the team, but before the sale was finalized, and with just hours left on the deadline, the Edmonton Investors Group, a consortium of 37 Edmonton-based owners, raised the funds to purchase the team from Pocklington, vowing to keep the Oilers in Edmonton. The Oilers received support in this endeavour from the NHL, which had already seen two Canadian teams (the Nordiques and Jets) move to the United States earlier in the decade.

Edmonton is a solid, solid hockey market. The Oilers have had financial troubles. Draw what conclusions you may from this.

You forget Kev that Pocklington himself was bankrupt and owed the alberta treasury bank millions which was his primary reason for trying to sell the team... hell just recently he was arrested for bank fraud and Slats paid his bail...

plus the canadian economy in the 90s sucked compared to the states and in the late 90s, when teams like the Nords and Jets moved the Canadian Dollar was around the 70 cent mark... so while paying their players the same amounts in american dollars like the US teams they were bringing in canadian dollars as revenue so you are looking at around a 30 per cent difference...

[rams80]

Didn't the Blues even lose their draft picks during that mess?

Hard to imagine Saskatoon as a pro sports city.

-Dan

Could've been the NHL's Packers.

Except there's no Milwaukee analog to help funnel money into the team in the province. And Wisconsin has 5 and a half times the population to support a team with 33 fewer homedates.

So no, they wouldn't have been the NHL's Packers, as they would have died within 3 years of moving.

[rams80]

And to play devil's advocate here, what happens if those circumstances arise again?

[BJ Sands]

Houston always gets overlooked. 6th most populous metropolitan area (soon to be 5th, larger than Philadelphia), currently the fastest growing city, largest metro area without a team, a team could settle in the Toyota Center (also home of the Rockets), and a stable economy. Sports teams in Texas always get supported well. A team in Houston could not possibly be worse than Atlanta, Nashville, Phoenix, or Miami.

Of course, the "Texas isn't a hockey market" arguement will arise, despite the success of the Stars.

If it relocates...Hamilton Steelhawks. I remember going to Hamilton Steelhawks OHL games as a young kid. What a name!

Buuuuut....this is where my opinion comes in. I'm born and raised in Hamilton. I LOVE hockey. But, I do not want an NHL team here in Hamilton. I love driving to games in Buffalo where the tickets are a fraction of the price in Toronto. Tickets for a team in Hamilton will be a lot higher than Buffalo.

We do not deserve a team here. We have not supported any hockey team that has played here. The Bulldogs won the Calder Cup a few seasons ago and can't draw a respectable crowd. Out mayor should take his head out of his ass and think about repairing our football stadium where we currently have a team playing in the CFL (not wasting his time on a team that doesn't and will never exist) where a set of lights crashed to the ground over the winter.

Aghhhh I hate when this topic comes up every year at this time. I wish people in our city just supported what we already have.

Rant over.

The Blackhawks would never, ever, ever let Steelhawks happen. They stopped Mo-Hawks before and would do the same now.

I don't want to get involved with the Hamilton-NHL thing. Don't wanna tick people off.

[DEAD!]

And to play devil's advocate here, what happens if those circumstances arise again?

I thought you're a Blues' fan?

[Saintsfan]

My own personal view is that Coyotes is a bad name for a hockey team for a start. But secondly its particularly bad for a cold climate hockey team.

I wonder if there is a name that is jet related but not 'Jets' that the relocated team could use?

[IceCap]

Say what you want, Hamilton hasnt had the chance to show that they can support an NHL team. Phoenix, Atlanta, Nashville, etc. have and they've failed. You cant say whether or not Hamilton is the right decision until theyve been given a chance.

Hamilton would pack the house each and every night. As long as people are buying tickets and supporting the team there is nothing wrong.

Phoenix and Atlanta especially have not been given a chance. Put the same crummy front office, management, and team in Hamilton and it will fail just as bad. Unless they've given a good product, they have not had a chance, period. (Nashville is a different story having slowly built their product, been interrupted when the team and fanbase was on a roll by the lockout, and have not yet quite recovered but also aren't yet dead.)

You're right that as long as people buy tickets and support the team, everything is fine, but the type of support you suggested the franchise would get is not the type that's likely to last long, especially if the team fails to put a good product out to the fans.

Ok. Now you're just getting ridiculous. The Coyotes haven't had a chance? It was a valid argument when Nashville was thinking of picking up and heading north, they hadn't even existed for a decade.

With Phoenix they've had what, thirteen years? How many more years do you want this team to bleed money?

Linus, the type of fandom, if you will, that you describe you and many other Hamiltonians having is not what the NHL needs for a successful franchise.

The only way that works is if your kids are raised to root for Hamilton instead of the Leafs, and even then you're talking about taking a generation to establish a fanbase.

Now I feel even more that a team in Hamilton would not be the right decision.

I suppose we'll reiterate that there are two groups of hockey fans in the Greater Toronto Area, and I'd say it's about evenly split. You have the Die-Hard Leafs Fans, and the Die-Hard Leafs Haters.

Guess which group would love to support the thorn in the Leafs side?

Not to mention the fair amount of Leafs fans (myself included) that would have no problem supporting both the Leafs and the Hamilton Coyotes/Thrashers, especially if they're in the other conference.

There's so much truth there. The Leafs, while understandably worried, have little to nothing to lose from a team in Hamilton. Most of the fans they would draw would be either people who don't support the Leafs anyway or people who have a hard time getting Leafs tickets, and thus their loss wouldn't mean a thing to the Leafs' cash flow. The Sabres have more to lose then the Leafs do.

A team in Hamilton will draw. No question. It'll be great for the fans, it'll be great for the Leafs, Habs, and Sens, and it'll be great for the NHL.

And if another Canadian team is just to much to handle for you, fine. Move the Coyotes to KC. Another fine market with a built in rivalry just waiting to happen. Just get them out of that hockey death trap that is Phoenix.

[IceCap]

Well there are Coyotes in southern Ontario. So if they wanted to keep the name, it would have some merit.

As for the name Jets? It's always possible, especially seeing as it is part of the team's history. I'm sure "Hamilton Jets" would irritate a lot of Winnipeg fans, however.

I really like the name rams80 came up with. The "Hamilton Arrows" after the Avro Arrow. It's location appropriate, it plays homage to the team's past life as the Jets, especially if using a similar colour scheme, it's a nice nod to something that's become a bit of Canadian legend, and I always felt the RCAF roundel would make a great alternate logo

The safe bet would be Hamilton Tigers, which while very clichéd, is something I wouldn't be opposed to.