Back In The Game?

[STL FANATIC]

But what the NHL has done in places like Phoenix, Atlanta, and Miami is make half the effort by awarding teams, but not the other half by striving to make those teams desirable products (though I'm not blaming the league entirely for that, most of that blame falls on each of the individual owners).

You can't blame the league at all. It's not the league office's job to make sure the Florida Panthers don't suck ass for ten years in a row.

Right. And I'd rather not have to blame the league at all. But I'm willing to listen if people want to say the league shouldn't have put franchises in these locations unless they were to owners who really were prepared to putforth the effort to make those markets succeed.

[Swampee]

All the talk about Tampa Bay being moved here and there, there are a few teams in the NHL that are in worse shape than the Lightning is. Namely the Islanders and the Devils.

Lets move the Islanders to Kansas City and the Devils to _____________ (Insert Canadian outpost) and the Bruins to ____________(Insert another Canadian outpost).

Where teams finished with attendance:

2009

TB-22nd

NJ-24th

Col-27th

2008

TB-9th

NJ-23rd

BOS-26

NYI-30th

2007

TB-3rd

NJ-26th

BOS-25th

NYI-28th

2006

TB-2nd

NJ-26th

STL-27th

NYI-30th

2004 Stanley Cup Champions

TB-12

BOS-21st

NJ-23rd

NYI-26th

Just because there are some cloudy days, doesn't mean you need to move a proven team out of a city.

The bias against some of the southern states is laughable when you post cold, hard facts.

[BJ Sands]

The Devils just got a new arena. They aren't going anywhere.

The Bruins are similar to the Blackhawks, in that their fans were driven away by poor ownership and are just starting to come back. They aren't going anywhere.

[Drew22]

I don't see anyone posting about wanting to move the Lightning. It's mostly the Thrashers and Coyotes.

[The_Admiral]

And it's not so much people wanting to move the Thrashers and Coyotes, it's discussion of the fact that one or both are in talks to be moved.

[thestockholmpig]

The Devils are definitely not moving. They just moved into the Rock. Besides, fans are starting to come out more. The Devils sold out every playoff home game this year (sadly, there were only four). Of course, the bickering about the Devils not being able to sell out the first two rounds of the playoffs will never stop. Most people think we still play the trap.

[Swampee]

I don't see anyone posting about wanting to move the Lightning. It's mostly the Thrashers and Coyotes.

Did you read the whole thread?

We need to contract the league and get rid of Nashville, Phoenix, Tampa, Atlanta, and Florida. ..... Now are Nashville, Phoenix, Tampa, Atlanta, and Florida complete disasters? You betcha! They are all Bettman's love children.

This is why the NHL DOES NOT work in the south. Florida, Atlanta, Phoenix, Nashville and the New York Islanders should all be moved. Tampa will likely fail soon, so I will add them to the list too.

Tampa Bay to Quebec

Tampa a failure? I think not.

[jake22]

As one from southern Utah, with the Coyotes being the nearest team, I am kind of sad that they could very well be leaving, but I think there needs to be more Canadian teams in the NHL. I'd personally want the Coyotes to move to another western U.S. city (if they must leave Phoenix), such as Portland, Las Vegas (might as well as the city has no other major pro sports and the league is "eyeing" them and Vegas is in the same region as Phoenix--you could even keep the name), or Salt Lake City.

That said, Hamilton is a deserving city for an NHL team because it has a history in the league and hockey is the national sport in Canada. Why deny a city with a lot of potenial just because it's not an American city? The only thing I can agree with Bettman on is that he won't let a team move unless it's a "last resort" (unlike the NBA in the Sonics case), but I do think that some relocations are necessary in N.A. sports, and at least 2 or 3 of the "Sun Belt" teams in the NHL need to move, and Phoenix is certainly a borderline Sun Belt city in my book.

For the record, here's my opinion on the Sun Belt cties and their viability:

Stable

--Dallas (r.i.p. North Stars)

--Tampa Bay

--Carolina (r.i.p. Whalers)

--San Jose

--Anahiem

--Los Angeles (the original Sun Belt city)

Borderline:

--Phoenix

--Nashville

Unstable

--Atlanta

--Florida

where does colorado stand on this list?

[cajunaggie08]

Houston always gets overlooked. 6th most populous metropolitan area (soon to be 5th, larger than Philadelphia), currently the fastest growing city, largest metro area without a team, a team could settle in the Toyota Center (also home of the Rockets), and a stable economy. Sports teams in Texas always get supported well. A team in Houston could not possibly be worse than Atlanta, Nashville, Phoenix, or Miami.

Of course, the "Texas isn't a hockey market" arguement will arise, despite the success of the Stars.

I think Houston could support a NHL team. There are plenty of relocated hockey fans down here. Houston was in the running for an expansion team back in the 90's but the NHL went with Nashville and Atlanta instead. The Aeros get decent support too. There have been occasions where the Toyota Center has been a sell out for a minor league hockey game. Houston would have an NHL team if the WHA Aeros would have lasted another year. So give Houston a shot. It cant be any worse than atlanta

[tp49]

The Devils are definitely not moving. They just moved into the Rock. Besides, fans are starting to come out more. The Devils sold out every playoff home game this year (sadly, there were only four). Of course, the bickering about the Devils not being able to sell out the first two rounds of the playoffs will never stop. Most people think we still play the trap.

Problem with the Devils is that the arena is in Downtown Newark. Once people get over their fear of Downtown Newark on a game day things will be just fine attendance wise. Yes, I know Newark is a crime ridden cesspool but from what I understand the city does a good job with police presence around the arena on game nights.

[-kj]

Sports in General is down the hall, y'all.

[Puck]

Maybe a shuffle is in order?

Move Phoenix back to Winnipeg, give back the Jets.

Move the Panthers to Phoenix, let the Coyotes stay.

Miami stays would it should be: focused on the Dolphins, Heat and retirement.

[Gothamite]

But what the NHL has done in places like Phoenix, Atlanta, and Miami is make half the effort by awarding teams, but not the other half by striving to make those teams desirable products (though I'm not blaming the league entirely for that, most of that blame falls on each of the individual owners).

You can't blame the league at all. It's not the league office's job to make sure the Florida Panthers don't suck ass for ten years in a row.

Well, I don't know about that.

I think the league has an interest in building a fanbase in a new market, they ought to help out a struggling franchise in some way before it hits the decade mark.

There were rumors that the NFL offered the Fords some advice in the initial post-Millen days. Advice on who to replace him with, if nothing else. A league can't afford to have franchises stink up the joint forever.

[zer0dotcom]

The Aeros get decent support too. There have been occasions where the Toyota Center has been a sell out for a minor league hockey game. Houston would have an NHL team if the WHA Aeros would have lasted another year. So give Houston a shot. It cant be any worse than atlanta

As has been said before, supporting an AHL team and supporting an NHL team are two completely different things.

What support do you have that Houston WOULD have got a team? Is there evidence from the then NHL commish that Houston would have gotten a team?

I'm not the biggest supporter of Bettman, but i am glad he's finally come around to STOP expanding and relocating, and get down to the buisness of solidifying the franchises that they have in place. It's sad that it's the threat of his latest expansion teams moving that has sparked him into action.

I do hope that the situation changes for these teams, and that they get the complete fan support and municipal support they need to survive. If they cannot gain that support to survive, then I hope Bettman, the owners and the league do what they have to in order to put the team in a position to succeed.

[SenatorJake]

Ok. Now you're just getting ridiculous. The Coyotes haven't had a chance? It was a valid argument when Nashville was thinking of picking up and heading north, they hadn't even existed for a decade.

With Phoenix they've had what, thirteen years? How many more years do you want this team to bleed money?

It's not about years in existence, it's about years with a desirable product. They had no more than four of those at the beginning of the tenure, and those were nothing special.

Beyond that, other than being a team, they've given fans no reason to come out.

The Coyotes have had a chance and not done anything with it. The Phoenix market, however, really has not. Like I said before, that same type of ownership for 10 years would draw every bit as few fans here in St. Louis, but that's not an indictment of the market.

I'll simplify it.

You won't convince me that Phoenix can't be a good NHL market until they've had about 5 years of playoff caliber teams including one or two deep playoff runs.

Until that happens, it's a no brainer that any new market won't draw fans.

Now if you just don't want to put the effort into new markets, that's a whole 'nother view point. But what the NHL has done in places like Phoenix, Atlanta, and Miami is make half the effort by awarding teams, but not the other half by striving to make those teams desirable products (though I'm not blaming the league entirely for that, most of that blame falls on each of the individual owners).

See the thing is that when a team only spends close to the minimum salary allowed because they are losing so much money, that team will usually not be competitive. It's alot more difficult to have a succesful franchise (economically and on the ice) if you are continually tightening your belt due to lack of fan support and a lousy arena lease. The poor "on the ice" product was definitely a symptom of the "off the ice" turmoil that the Phoenix Coyotes have been going through financially. If the Coyotes made money, then maybe the ownership could spend money on improving the quality of the team through free agency or even via trade. This team is having trouble paying the low team payroll it already has. Is it any wonder the Coyotes are rarely in playoff contention?

[josh_cat_eyes]

I'm not the biggest supporter of Bettman, but i am glad he's finally come around to STOP expanding and relocating, and get down to the buisness of solidifying the franchises that they have in place. It's sad that it's the threat of his latest expansion teams moving that has sparked him into action.

I do hope that the situation changes for these teams, and that they get the complete fan support and municipal support they need to survive. If they cannot gain that support to survive, then I hope Bettman, the owners and the league do what they have to in order to put the team in a position to succeed.

If he is still trying to solidify at least half of the relocation's and expansion that he made in the 90's then I think he is the problem. He put the teams there, and the whole time they have been there he has been trying to fix them. He is just to ing stupid to realize that the moves he made were wrong. He is also too stupid to realize that hockey is not working in the south. If he wants to made money he needs to focus on Canada and the northern US. For almost all the the NHL's history, they have had a greater presence in the US, when the NHL mattered a hell of a lot more to Canadians. It's about time for that to change.

"I've always believed that the NHL's future is in markets where people actually like the sport of hockey. Which is why the NHL needs to retrench, forget about becoming a national property in the United States, get out of places where people are ambivalent about the game and concentrate on filling buildings with hockey fans." - Bob McCown

[STL FANATIC]

Oh, I fully agree with that Jake.

I'm just saying that you can't expect to just enter a new hockey market and make money. You have to plan to lose money while you build a viable product, and you hope down the line that the viable product will make up for those original losses.

In the case of the Coyotes, they lost money, but they rarely did more than try to exist. There was never really any chance that those losses would be recouped, because they weren't losing money to build a good team, they were just losing money to be a team.

The Blues are losing money right now (unless this year finally turned that around--it may have), but they're losing money in order to build for a profitable future.

The Coyotes have never really had a plan like that. They've had dreams of it, but no such plan to achieve those dreams.

[SenatorJake]

It is very unlikely that the Coyotes will somehow become a contender despite overwhelming odds. First of all, you would need this team to be able to make payroll. Second, you would need a complete overhaul of the hockey operations side of the business. Finally, you would need a new lease agreement with the city of Glendale. Add to this that many a times an argument has been made that Phoenix is quite simply not interested in hockey. It really does seem like an extremely uphill battle for the Coyotes to even be a marginally successful club.

When a team is spiralling out of control the way the Coyotes are, the solution for this market becomes a really long term solution. It might take 5 years for the team's financial situation to be turned around completely around and even then, will they really be in a position to spend more than the league average on player salaries? That's doubtful at best. Meanwhile, the NHL and its Board of Governors would've had given 20 years for the Coyotes to get their act together. How long should the NHL have to subsidize this team? 5 years? 10 years? More? I just don't see it as a worthwhile investment for the NHL in these times of economic incertitude.

500th POST

[rams80]

The problem with that line of thought is that the NHL's future, as well as that of any sports league with the kind of salaries the NHL offers is not in Canada, and definitely not in the part of the United States that has been declining economically for decades....and that trend is not going to change.

Fact: Canada has 1/10th the population of the US, and the GDP numbers are pretty much the same...and is pretty much giving its all to support hockey.

Bettman doesn't want to simply make money. He wants the league to make more money in the long term. Massive retrenchment does not benefit this goal.

Another thing to consider: I assume you like watching players like Ovechkin and Malkin on this side of the Atlantic. I doubt a massively retrenched NHL would be able to keep attracting top quality European talent over here.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I'm sorry Mockba...but until something more concrete about a potential move comes out, we might as well just merge this thread into the other one.

[The_Admiral]

This whole "does Phoenix want hockey" thing sort of reminds me of when we'd loan, or not loan, video games out to each other as kids.

"Hey, can I borrow your copy of Street Fighter II?"

"Aw, do you have to? I love that game!"

"Yeah, but you just bought Street Fighter II Turbo and play that instead."

"Well yeah but sometimes I like to play the old one."

"Oh yeah? Like when?"

"...yesterday. A week ago. I think."

"Look. You won't even know I have it, because you won't play it."

"Sure I will!"

"WHY?"

"Well, I might want to."

"WHEN?"

"Eventually."

"You're being ridiculous. Fine. I won't loan you any games."

"Fine, take the stupid game."

15 years later, I still have that kid's copy of Street Fighter II.