Back In The Game?

[rams80]

Still no official decision. This wait is killing me. I know it takes time but please make a decision asap!

It's not going to get done in time for a move this year. I can pretty much guarantee that at the least.

PHOENIX - Bankruptcy judge Redfield T. Baum believes the NHL is entitled to a fee for the right to put a team in Hamilton, and that unknown number is crucial to his decision on the fate of the Phoenix Coyotes.

His statement, coming during a combative and entertaining court hearing today in Phoenix, ran counter to arguments made by lawyers for Jim Balsillie that no fee is owed.

Balsillie has bid US$212.5 million for the insolvent Coyotes on the condition he move it to Hamilton -- something the league is against.

The relocation fee would take away money available to pay off creditors and Baum said that if that left them worse off, he would reject Balsillie's bid.

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=281369

So what's Bettman going to do, put the relocation fee at $200 Million?

And the ball would be in Balsillie's bid to say "OK, fine" and pay a fee on top of the 212.5 million so as not to take money from the sale away from creditors.

Again, satisfying the creditors is the first and foremost priority here if the court deems the Bankruptcy claim valid.

Except Glendale becomes a creditor if the team leaves. I believe they said they would be asking for half a billion.

The city of Glendale would become an unsecured creditor which would mean they would be at the back of the line,and once the secured creditors were paid,they would have to seek a settlement for a portion of what was left over to get any money at all.

But the goal of a bankruptcy sale is to satisfy creditors. If that was the case, wouldn't you want to minimize the creditors and the money that needed to be paid out?

[Mac the Knife]

How I interpret the article, and the judge's comments, basically boils down to this: make a deal with Balsille, or risk my wrath by forcing a deal on everyone that none of you will really like.

In short, unless Balsille walks (and if he does, there'll be no chance of him ever getting an NHL team, anywhere, at any time), the NHL's going to have to let him buy the team and relocate it. The NHL could impose a relocation fee or a territorial rights indemnification payment to Toronto and/or Buffalo, but even if that number's $100M, Balsille's going to pay it if it means he gets his club. He's gone too far not to at this point and not look like a fool.

As for the NHL, the judge seems to be saying, "your rules don't stand up to bankruptcy laws and whatever I'll impose, so make nice and get a deal done." Whether or not the league actually takes that advice or ties this thing up indefinitely just to prove a point (and if the Coyotes are losing as much $$$ as is being reported, cost each of the NHL's other 29 club owners around $3 million a year [uS] until they find a buyer), my guess is the Coyotes are gone - it's just a question of to whom they're sold, how much money's involved, and where they'll ultimately go.

[rams80]

And on that note the era of publicly funded sports pleasure palaces ends. Because if you can void leases at any time through bankruptcy, no politician in their right mind will build a potentially white elephant stadium. Sure franchise values may go up in the short term, but when block obsolescence of the stadiums kicks in in a decade or two...(or nobody decides to build an arena on speculation...) Granted Hamilton will fund the Copps renovation because admonitions such as these fall on deaf ears to Hamilton's apparently idiot city fathers, but that's the end. Good bye.

/Oh hell, this is long term thinking, which is a foreign concept to all involved, including the judge.

//Is it too late to register the domain name "peoriacanadiens.com"?

[dfwabel]

And on that note the era of publicly funded sports pleasure palaces ends. Because if you can void leases at any time through bankruptcy, no politician in their right mind will build a potentially white elephant stadium. Sure franchise values may go up in the short term, but when block obsolescence of the stadiums kicks in in a decade or two...(or nobody decides to build an arena on speculation...) Granted Hamilton will fund the Copps renovation because admonitions such as these fall on deaf ears to Hamilton's apparently idiot city fathers, but that's the end. Good bye.

/Oh hell, this is long term thinking, which is a foreign concept to all involved, including the judge.

//Is it too late to register the domain name "peoriacanadiens.com"?

In terms of public support, Barnum will always be correct; "There is a sucker born every minute".

There always will be a city which will think that an 18,500+ seat arena will make them "big time" and can gain a team. Even within this economic time, they will take that tax chance. To each their own, but just don't blame it all on Bettman.

*Posters here even refuse to read true sport "news" such from www.fieldofschemes.com in terms of relocation, but we know all which we see in terms of news. Honestly, I cannot understand why there are users who are that numb to seeing where information can be found easily*

[Gothamite]

And on that note the era of publicly funded sports pleasure palaces ends. Because if you can void leases at any time through bankruptcy, no politician in their right mind will build a potentially white elephant stadium. Sure franchise values may go up in the short term, but when block obsolescence of the stadiums kicks in in a decade or two...(or nobody decides to build an arena on speculation...) Granted Hamilton will fund the Copps renovation because admonitions such as these fall on deaf ears to Hamilton's apparently idiot city fathers, but that's the end. Good bye.

/Oh hell, this is long term thinking, which is a foreign concept to all involved, including the judge.

Chicken Little roleplay is always loads of fun, but I don't see this ruling having an affect on the way other teams are run. The circumstances are unique, and will likely become more so.

Even if the ruling comes down that way, you won't see other owners putting their clubs into bankruptcy to break stadium leases because they will hardly be eager to hand those clubs over to judges for administration. So it's a non-starter.

Not to mention that we'll likely see the leagues re-writing the franchisee contract to prevent this from happening again. They could require that the franchise itself be automatically returned to the League in the event of bankruptcy or something. There has to be a way to make such a provision legal.

[njmeadowlanders]

And on that note the era of publicly funded sports pleasure palaces ends. Because if you can void leases at any time through bankruptcy, no politician in their right mind will build a potentially white elephant stadium. Sure franchise values may go up in the short term, but when block obsolescence of the stadiums kicks in in a decade or two...(or nobody decides to build an arena on speculation...) Granted Hamilton will fund the Copps renovation because admonitions such as these fall on deaf ears to Hamilton's apparently idiot city fathers, but that's the end. Good bye.

/Oh hell, this is long term thinking, which is a foreign concept to all involved, including the judge.

Chicken Little roleplay is always loads of fun, but I don't see this ruling having an affect on the way other teams are run. The circumstances are unique, and will likely become more so.

Even if the ruling comes down that way, you won't see other owners putting their clubs into bankruptcy to break stadium leases because they will hardly be eager to hand those clubs over to judges for administration. So it's a non-starter.

Not to mention that we'll likely see the leagues re-writing the franchisee contract to prevent this from happening again. They could require that the franchise itself be automatically returned to the League in the event of bankruptcy or something. There has to be a way to make such a provision legal.

Good point. When all is said and done, this "precedent" will be moot (regardless of the side that wins) because the leagues probably already have lawyers and whatnot prepping amendments to bylaws and whatnot that will not allow this situation to go down the same path again. There may be a legal precedent set, but that will be circumvented so that this situation cannot happen again.

Of course there are always loopholes for different situations and whatnot and there will be as long as rules and laws exist.

[Gothamite]

Oh, undoubtedly.

But still, you would need an owner to put his team into bankruptcy. Not going to be a common occurence just for a relocation threat.

[njmeadowlanders]

Oh, undoubtedly.

But still, you would need an owner to put his team into bankruptcy. Not going to be a common occurence just for a relocation threat.

Wouldn't it also depend on the type of entity that owns the franchises? If it were say, an LLC running the organization there wouldn't be anyone with personal liability for any debts, as opposed to an LP where there'd be at least one general partner who would be personally liable for debts of the entity?

On edit: For the US based entities. I don't know what Canadian laws state.

[rams80]

And on that note the era of publicly funded sports pleasure palaces ends. Because if you can void leases at any time through bankruptcy, no politician in their right mind will build a potentially white elephant stadium. Sure franchise values may go up in the short term, but when block obsolescence of the stadiums kicks in in a decade or two...(or nobody decides to build an arena on speculation...) Granted Hamilton will fund the Copps renovation because admonitions such as these fall on deaf ears to Hamilton's apparently idiot city fathers, but that's the end. Good bye.

/Oh hell, this is long term thinking, which is a foreign concept to all involved, including the judge.

Chicken Little roleplay is always loads of fun, but I don't see this ruling having an affect on the way other teams are run. The circumstances are unique, and will likely become more so.

Even if the ruling comes down that way, you won't see other owners putting their clubs into bankruptcy to break stadium leases because they will hardly be eager to hand those clubs over to judges for administration. So it's a non-starter.

Not to mention that we'll likely see the leagues re-writing the franchisee contract to prevent this from happening again. They could require that the franchise itself be automatically returned to the League in the event of bankruptcy or something. There has to be a way to make such a provision legal.

Good point. When all is said and done, this "precedent" will be moot (regardless of the side that wins) because the leagues probably already have lawyers and whatnot prepping amendments to bylaws and whatnot that will not allow this situation to go down the same path again. There may be a legal precedent set, but that will be circumvented so that this situation cannot happen again.

Of course there are always loopholes for different situations and whatnot and there will be as long as rules and laws exist.

All of which fall under "anti-trust lawsuit".

[STL FANATIC]

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=281608

FINANCIAL PLANNER: NHL HOCKEY CAN'T SUCCEED IN PHOENIX

A Toronto financial planner has added his data to the argument that an NHL club won't work in Phoenix.

The Coyotes rank 29th out of 30 NHL teams - ahead of only the St. Louis Blues - in market viability, according to Tri-Delta Financial CEO Ted Rechtschaffen.

...

Ummm. WHAAAAAT?!

St. Louis is the least viable market of the present 30 for NHL hockey?

This would be the last piece of evidence I'd try and present the judge if I were Ballsillie and Moyes.

[crashcarson15]

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=281608

FINANCIAL PLANNER: NHL HOCKEY CAN'T SUCCEED IN PHOENIX

A Toronto financial planner has added his data to the argument that an NHL club won't work in Phoenix.

The Coyotes rank 29th out of 30 NHL teams - ahead of only the St. Louis Blues - in market viability, according to Tri-Delta Financial CEO Ted Rechtschaffen.

...

Ummm. WHAAAAAT?!

St. Louis is the least viable market of the present 30 for NHL hockey?

This would be the last piece of evidence I'd try and present the judge if I were Ballsillie and Moyes.

So wait you're telling me that St. Louis isn't viable yet it has worked since 1967?

[charger77]

Well they did almost move to Saskatoon!

-Dan

[BrySmalls]

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=281608

FINANCIAL PLANNER: NHL HOCKEY CAN'T SUCCEED IN PHOENIX

A Toronto financial planner has added his data to the argument that an NHL club won't work in Phoenix.

The Coyotes rank 29th out of 30 NHL teams - ahead of only the St. Louis Blues - in market viability, according to Tri-Delta Financial CEO Ted Rechtschaffen.

...

Ummm. WHAAAAAT?!

St. Louis is the least viable market of the present 30 for NHL hockey?

This would be the last piece of evidence I'd try and present the judge if I were Ballsillie and Moyes.

So wait you're telling me that St. Louis isn't viable yet it has worked since 1967?

Pulling together five years' worth of data from ESPN, Forbes, the U.S. Census Bureau and the sports teams marketing bureau, Rechtschaffen concluded the keys for an NHL club's survival are location and gate revenue.

Without fan support, corporate sponsorship and television rights contracts die out, he said.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to see the formulas generated that presented these results.

[The_Admiral]

Yeah, it could be fascinating stuff. I think St. Louis is a good hockey market, certainly not the worst in the league (Phoenix or Miami), but maybe there are details about the team and region that I don't know. I don't think the Blues' presence in dead last is enough to scuttle the legitimacy of the entire report, though.

[STL FANATIC]

Yeah, it could be fascinating stuff. I think St. Louis is a good hockey market, certainly not the worst in the league (Phoenix or Miami), but maybe there are details about the team and region that I don't know. I don't think the Blues' presence in dead last is enough to scuttle the legitimacy of the entire report, though.

I can certainly see weaknesses in the St. Louis market on the whole that would suggest it might not be a top market to place a team without looking a little deeper.

But the fact of the matter is that St. Louis has strongly supported a team for over 40 years and looks primed to continue that support.

So whatever weaknesses exist in the St. Louis market, they're clearly able to be overcome.

And with that in mind, I don't see how you can trust this study if it says that Phoenix's weakness are less than St. Louis and that a team can't be viable in Phoenix.

Really, I do think it's enough to call the entire report illegitimate. It doesn't mean you have to condemn the conclusion that Phoenix isn't viable for NHL hockey, it just means that this report is far from sufficient proof of that claim.

When an equally drawn conclusion is that St. Louis cannot support NHL hockey, and 40+ years prove that false, you simply can't allow this as evidence to prove that Phoenix cannot support NHL hockey.

[Linus]

I have to agree with all of you, I found that hard to believe.

From what Ive seen from games on TV and such, St. Louis seems to have a strong fan base and they've been around since '67 which means things must be running fine.

[Gothamite]

they've been around since '67 which means things must be running fine.

Well, I don't know that automatically follows.

[Mac the Knife]

Oh, undoubtedly.

But still, you would need an owner to put his team into bankruptcy. Not going to be a common occurence just for a relocation threat.

Wouldn't it also depend on the type of entity that owns the franchises? If it were say, an LLC running the organization there wouldn't be anyone with personal liability for any debts, as opposed to an LP where there'd be at least one general partner who would be personally liable for debts of the entity?

On edit: For the US based entities. I don't know what Canadian laws state.

No, not really; US sports leagues don't allow partnerships (in the old fashioned sense of the term) to own franchises anymore. They have to be LLC's, corporations or equivalent entities.

[cappital92]

they've been around since '67 which means things must be running fine.

Well, I don't know that automatically follows.

The Penguins, North Stars and Sonics come to mind.

[Mac the Knife]

Well they did almost move to Saskatoon!

-Dan

Early/mid 1980's. There was a deal in place to sell the team, but at the last minute local owners stepped up.