Other Potential NHL Markets

[DEAD!]

Why would any of the upper deck need to be curtained off? Obviously it's not a suitable arena, I'm just curious about that one point.

I suppose that pic is of a Thunderbirds game.

[OMMF]

Why would any of the upper deck need to be curtained off? Obviously it's not a suitable arena, I'm just curious about that one point.

Just like when the Coyotes were in America West, the goal at that end can't be seen by the fans sitting there. I've sat in that end of the arena during a game and you literally have to lean over the rail to see the net. And that's on the 100 level. The 200 level would be even worse.

[mantleisthebest7]

I mentioned in another thread that I actually believe Salt Lake would be a great market for hockey. We currently have the Grizzlies of the ECHL, and youd be suprised to know that support for the team is absolutely HUGE up here. They are just behind the Jazz and ahead of Real Salt Lake in my opninion as far as team popularity goes around the state. thier current venue, the E Center, is quite young and if an NHL team would be too much for that venue, then there is always the Energy Solutions Arena. That as well is a young venue and houses the Jazz very well. Take it from someone who lives in the area, support for a team would be far greater than you all think. I know many dont think so but Utah would be a great market for hockey.

A couple of factors:

-Hockey interest is growing by the week it seems. 10 years ago, the varsity high school hockey division was very small, only consisting on some teams in the salt lake valley and maybe a few spread out surrounding the area. No in 2009, The division has expanded both north and south into the Cache and Utah Valleys and currently boasts 34 teams in these populous areas of the state compared to the 10 or 12 confined in the Salt Lake valley.

-Aside from the Varsity division, there are many junior leagues across the state that are growing as well.

-As aforementioned, there are two possible venues to choose from. The E-Center (home of the ECHL's Grizzlies) has a max capacity of 12,000 while the Energy Solutions Arena seats 20,500 if the E-Center were found to be too small. The Energy Solutions Arena is the primary sports venue of Utah and currently houses the Jazz and AFL's Blaze. Also, the venue and Salt Lake City has been suitable enough to host an NBA All-Star game and weekend festivites (1993). Along with the 1993 game, the ESA has hosten two consecutive NBA Finals as well (1997, 1998)

-The ECHL's Grizzlies have among the top fan bases as far as Utah's professional teams are concerned, jsut behind the Jazz. There are no stats to prove this but i am almost convinced that the Grizzlies are most supported than the MLS' Real Salt Lake, proving loyalty to a hockey over a major professional sports team in the area, despite the Grizzlies being a minor league team.

-The 2002 Winter Olympics were famously held in the area, as winter sports are a prime attraction here in the state. Olympic Hockey fueled great interest among many events held.

-Loyalty is a strong belief and strong practice by fans in Utah. The Jazz, despite playing in one of the NBA's smaller markets, have enjoyed tremendous success due to fan loyalty and advertising and team buisness therefore thrives. As the Jazz and Real are currently the only major professional teams in Utah, support could pour into a third team very well and more than other locations with four or perhaps five could, where the support is more balanced and evened out.

-Lastly, though perhaps not as important but still perhaps a factor, Utah is home to large amounts of natural ice and have regular winters, unlike other unsuccessful locations such as Phoenix, Nashville and Atlanta.

What do you guys think based on this information?

[dfwabel]

SLC. No. You do not have a ready facility.

The E Center is too small by at least 3,000 seats. Additional seating would be the largest of the facility improvements necessary to garner a NHL team. Energy Soultions Arena will have the same sightline issues as US Airways Center in PHX and for hockey, it only seats 14,000; still under the minimum.

[mantleisthebest7]

SLC. No. You do not have a ready facility.

The E Center is too small by at least 3,000 seats. Additional seating would be the largest of the facility improvements necessary to garner a NHL team. Energy Soultions Arena will have the same sightline issues as US Airways Center in PHX and for hockey, it only seats 14,000; still under the minimum.

Well, even with modifications to meet hockey needs, I think a 20,500 seat arena modified would still be able to seat enough. I doubt it'd cut out more than 6,000 seats. I could be wrong but thats at least what I think.

[dfwabel]

SLC. No. You do not have a ready facility.

The E Center is too small by at least 3,000 seats. Additional seating would be the largest of the facility improvements necessary to garner a NHL team. Energy Soultions Arena will have the same sightline issues as US Airways Center in PHX and for hockey, it only seats 14,000; still under the minimum.

Well, even with modifications to meet hockey needs, I think a 20,500 seat arena modified would still be able to seat enough. I doubt it'd cut out more than 6,000 seats. I could be wrong but thats at least what I think.

Their own website claims 14,400 as capacity for hockey and similar events (arena football and rodeo).

[TBGKon]

SLC. No. You do not have a ready facility.

The E Center is too small by at least 3,000 seats. Additional seating would be the largest of the facility improvements necessary to garner a NHL team. Energy Soultions Arena will have the same sightline issues as US Airways Center in PHX and for hockey, it only seats 14,000; still under the minimum.

Well, even with modifications to meet hockey needs, I think a 20,500 seat arena modified would still be able to seat enough. I doubt it'd cut out more than 6,000 seats. I could be wrong but thats at least what I think.

Their own website claims 14,400 as capacity for hockey and similar events (arena football and rodeo).

True, but if you look at their seating charts for hockey, arenaball, etc., the upper level endzones are completely cut off. I don't think its because of the view, I think it's the fact that they dont need all of the room.

[mantleisthebest7]

SLC. No. You do not have a ready facility.

The E Center is too small by at least 3,000 seats. Additional seating would be the largest of the facility improvements necessary to garner a NHL team. Energy Soultions Arena will have the same sightline issues as US Airways Center in PHX and for hockey, it only seats 14,000; still under the minimum.

Well, even with modifications to meet hockey needs, I think a 20,500 seat arena modified would still be able to seat enough. I doubt it'd cut out more than 6,000 seats. I could be wrong but thats at least what I think.

Their own website claims 14,400 as capacity for hockey and similar events (arena football and rodeo).

True, but if you look at their seating charts for hockey, arenaball, etc., the upper level endzones are completely cut off. I don't think its because of the view, I think it's the fact that they dont need all of the room.

Yes, that is true. If they were to open them id sure itd be enough. Trust me ive been to the ESA many times and it has alot of seats. Im always up in the nose-bleed (upper deck) seats everytime i go to a Jazz game (which is at least once a year) and just from my view there alone it looks worthy.

Even if venue kinks had to be worked out, all other factors that I mentioned could contribute to a great hockey market. I'm hoping that if not in the next 5-7 years (hey I can dream haha) it happens in at least 10-15. I have a good feeling about it, as one who has lived in Utah my whole life (and half of it just an hours drive from Salt Lake), ive seen the state grow alot. Im sure in due time it will get something.

And dfwabel, you said the E-center would need 3,000 more seats to be NHL-worthy, so im guessing 15,000 is the magic number? Well the 14,400 that the ESA apparently has for hockey is only off by 600 seats. My high school auditorium (which is a lower class 2A school, the highest level being 5A, so its a small school) has more than 600. It shouldnt be too hard to include 600 already existing seats somewhere or open up the upper level endzone seats. Thats a modification that (if really and ultimately) needed, wouldnt be too much a problem at all.

[dfwabel]

SLC. No. You do not have a ready facility.

The E Center is too small by at least 3,000 seats. Additional seating would be the largest of the facility improvements necessary to garner a NHL team. Energy Soultions Arena will have the same sightline issues as US Airways Center in PHX and for hockey, it only seats 14,000; still under the minimum.

Well, even with modifications to meet hockey needs, I think a 20,500 seat arena modified would still be able to seat enough. I doubt it'd cut out more than 6,000 seats. I could be wrong but thats at least what I think.

Their own website claims 14,400 as capacity for hockey and similar events (arena football and rodeo).

True, but if you look at their seating charts for hockey, arenaball, etc., the upper level endzones are completely cut off. I don't think its because of the view, I think it's the fact that they dont need all of the room.

Yes, that is true. If they were to open them id sure itd be enough. Trust me ive been to the ESA many times and it has alot of seats. Im always up in the nose-bleed (upper deck) seats everytime i go to a Jazz game (which is at least once a year) and just from my view there alone it looks worthy.

Even if venue kinks had to be worked out, all other factors that I mentioned could contribute to a great hockey market. I'm hoping that if not in the next 5-7 years (hey I can dream haha) it happens in at least 10-15. I have a good feeling about it, as one who has lived in Utah my whole life (and half of it just an hours drive from Salt Lake), ive seen the state grow alot. Im sure in due time it will get something.

And dfwabel, you said the E-center would need 3,000 more seats to be NHL-worthy, so im guessing 15,000 is the magic number? Well the 14,400 that the ESA apparently has for hockey is only off by 600 seats. My high school auditorium (which is a lower class 2A school, the highest level being 5A, so its a small school) has more than 600. It shouldnt be too hard to include 600 already existing seats somewhere or open up the upper level endzone seats. Thats a modification that (if really and ultimately) needed, wouldnt be too much a problem at all.

Honestly, what is done at your high school has no bearing on adding another professional team. Granted, the facility can narrow seats to fit the NHL minimum, as it has been done before. However, if current potential owners are not seriously considering SLC, then who would buy a team and move it there? It seems as if Checketts is looking to the NFL, the Huntsman family seems to have more of a philanthropic vibe in medicine and education as opposed to sport (granted the University of Utah's arena is named from their fortune), and Larry Miller's corporation is facing issues with themselves as the auto group is losing dealerships and other auto industry issues.

Just beacuse you have a venue which may meet requirements, it does not mean that you are a market or deserve something. Also remember that you are hosting a second winter sport. If you include skiing/snowboarding, can that economy hose both the Jazz and a second winter sport for 40 games?

[mantleisthebest7]

SLC. No. You do not have a ready facility.

The E Center is too small by at least 3,000 seats. Additional seating would be the largest of the facility improvements necessary to garner a NHL team. Energy Soultions Arena will have the same sightline issues as US Airways Center in PHX and for hockey, it only seats 14,000; still under the minimum.

Well, even with modifications to meet hockey needs, I think a 20,500 seat arena modified would still be able to seat enough. I doubt it'd cut out more than 6,000 seats. I could be wrong but thats at least what I think.

Their own website claims 14,400 as capacity for hockey and similar events (arena football and rodeo).

True, but if you look at their seating charts for hockey, arenaball, etc., the upper level endzones are completely cut off. I don't think its because of the view, I think it's the fact that they dont need all of the room.

Yes, that is true. If they were to open them id sure itd be enough. Trust me ive been to the ESA many times and it has alot of seats. Im always up in the nose-bleed (upper deck) seats everytime i go to a Jazz game (which is at least once a year) and just from my view there alone it looks worthy.

Even if venue kinks had to be worked out, all other factors that I mentioned could contribute to a great hockey market. I'm hoping that if not in the next 5-7 years (hey I can dream haha) it happens in at least 10-15. I have a good feeling about it, as one who has lived in Utah my whole life (and half of it just an hours drive from Salt Lake), ive seen the state grow alot. Im sure in due time it will get something.

And dfwabel, you said the E-center would need 3,000 more seats to be NHL-worthy, so im guessing 15,000 is the magic number? Well the 14,400 that the ESA apparently has for hockey is only off by 600 seats. My high school auditorium (which is a lower class 2A school, the highest level being 5A, so its a small school) has more than 600. It shouldnt be too hard to include 600 already existing seats somewhere or open up the upper level endzone seats. Thats a modification that (if really and ultimately) needed, wouldnt be too much a problem at all.

Honestly, what is done at your high school has no bearing on adding another professional team. Granted, the facility can narrow seats to fit the NHL minimum, as it has been done before. However, if current potential owners are not seriously considering SLC, then who would buy a team and move it there? It seems as if Checketts is looking to the NFL, the Huntsman family seems to have more of a philanthropic vibe in medicine and education as opposed to sport (granted the University of Utah's arena is named from their fortune), and Larry Miller's corporation is facing issues with themselves as the auto group is losing dealerships and other auto industry issues.

Just beacuse you have a venue which may meet requirements, it does not mean that you are a market or deserve something. Also remember that you are hosting a second winter sport. If you include skiing/snowboarding, can that economy hose both the Jazz and a second winter sport for 40 games?

Um...did I ever say that what my high school does will eventually lure an NHL team to Utah? Absolutely not. All I was trying to do was make a point of how little of a problem 600, let alone 700 seats, are. Not once did I say "my high school will bring a team to Utah".

You never know who could buy a team and move it here, do you expect me to hand pick some random multi-millionaire and brand him/her the person who brings hockey to Utah? Anything can happen over the next few years. Heck, there may be a 22-year old college student out there somewhere who makes it REALLY big in the coming years and in 10-15 years gets enough to buy a team. I never said this was going to be immediate. I know its going to take time. So whos to say that person I just described isnt out there right now? If anything ive learned from living here in Utah is that patience is key. We waited for soemthing big to come here and we got the olympics. We waited for anything to accompany the Jazz in our pro arsenal and we got Real and the Blaze. IT WILL TAKE TIME. All im saying is that if someone ever in the near future takes the step to bring hockey here to Utah, I believe the market could be successful.

and apparently, you didnt see the other factors I mentioned. The venue wasnt the only thing I mentioned. See my original post and see the other factors. And yes, I believe that we can house a team for 40 games during the winter. Why not?? There are a few teams in the NHL who do it now. So why cant we do it?

Sorry I may be just a Utah-loyal, desperate fan speaking here but seriously, i do believe that hockey here in due time could really work, and i'm sticking to that belief.

[FrankCostanza]

Some to consider if suitable venue is built:

- Seattle (Key Arena can hold hockey on a temporary basis, but is not a full-time suitable venue)

In order to accommodate the Seattle Thunderbirds, two thirds of KeyArena had to be tarped off. I don't think the NHL would ever allow that, no matter how temporary it would be.

They didn't have to. Obviously, the south end zone seats were unusable but the TBirds wanted the upper deck curtained off to give it a more intimate atmosphere. I don't know that it worked but it did make it special when the arena was so full they had to raise the curtain. By curtaining off the upper deck, it also lowered KeyArena's attendance capacity for hockey and made the team look better attendance-wise, at least on paper.

To give people a more visual idea of how unsuitable KeyArena is for NHL hockey, here's a picture I took from the 07-08 season. Imagine about 2/3 of the upper deck would be used, but as mentioned before, that entire south end (lower and upper) would continue to be curtained. The seating bowl of the arena simply cannot fit a hockey rink... insanely, this was by design. The Sonics' owner during the mid-90s mandated that the remodel of Seattle Coliseum into KeyArena be basketball-specific because he didn't want a hockey team there. Worst move ever IMO, even worse than the Sonics moving.

(Higher-quality pic here)

That scoreboard isn't even centered to the ice surface.

[Burmy]

Some to consider if suitable venue is built:

- Seattle (Key Arena can hold hockey on a temporary basis, but is not a full-time suitable venue)

In order to accommodate the Seattle Thunderbirds, two thirds of KeyArena had to be tarped off. I don't think the NHL would ever allow that, no matter how temporary it would be.

They didn't have to. Obviously, the south end zone seats were unusable but the TBirds wanted the upper deck curtained off to give it a more intimate atmosphere. I don't know that it worked but it did make it special when the arena was so full they had to raise the curtain. By curtaining off the upper deck, it also lowered KeyArena's attendance capacity for hockey and made the team look better attendance-wise, at least on paper.

To give people a more visual idea of how unsuitable KeyArena is for NHL hockey, here's a picture I took from the 07-08 season. Imagine about 2/3 of the upper deck would be used, but as mentioned before, that entire south end (lower and upper) would continue to be curtained. The seating bowl of the arena simply cannot fit a hockey rink... insanely, this was by design. The Sonics' owner during the mid-90s mandated that the remodel of Seattle Coliseum into KeyArena be basketball-specific because he didn't want a hockey team there. Worst move ever IMO, even worse than the Sonics moving.

(Higher-quality pic here)

That scoreboard isn't even centered to the ice surface.

I agree...TERRIBLE move for "basketball-specific" renovation.

Seattle is a "natural hockey market," and any new arena the city would build needs to help accommodate that as well as basketball (and likely arena football too).

[DustDevil61]

Going back to Salt Lake, I also think that in due time, it could (and will) house an NHL team. I have heard that Jazz management is planning some renovations to the ESA (of course, that may be on hold until this economy recovers), meaning that there could be some changes to help make the building more hockey-friendly. Others have said that there have been talks about extending the E Center's seating. I think it will be a few years, but it will likely happen. Seating +20k for hockey in SLC is a bit too much; 17k would work just fine.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the Salt Lake (and Utah) fanbase would not initially be a San Jose, Denver, or Dallas in off-ice success (those being some of the most solid Western U.S. NHL markets over the years) if the NHL came here now, but it certainly would be better than places like Florida, Atlanta, or Phoenix. I believe that the IHL Grizzlies at the Turner Cup Finals outdrew the Panthers at the Stanley Cup Finals in the same year (1995 or 1996).

If not the NHL, hopefully AAA hockey (AHL or not) can return back out west (and to other old IHL markets like San Diego, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Long Beach, Kansas City, and so on).

[DustDevil61]

While we're talking about Salt Lake, via Bleacher Report...

Could Salt Lake City Support the Coyotes?

The article somewhat touches on the arena size issues, and mentions the possibility of expanding the E Center's capacity for the Coytoes franchise. This may be quite the win-win for someone in S. Utah (like me), since the 'Yotes are relatively popular down here, and that would only strengthen S. Utahn support; as they would still be the nearest team around.

[rams80]

While we're talking about Salt Lake, via Bleacher Report...

Could Salt Lake City Support the Coyotes?

The article somewhat touches on the arena size issues, and mentions the possibility of expanding the E Center's capacity for the Coytoes franchise. This may be quite the win-win for someone in S. Utah (like me), since the 'Yotes are relatively popular down here, and that would only strengthen S. Utahn support; as they would still be the nearest team around.

The NHL will not directly challenge the NBA, especially an established NBA team, in a small market. Period.

[Canadian_Idiot]

ANY other teams in Texas would be welcome.

Houston could support it- and they already have a healthy fan-base (and lengthy, Dallas Stars surpassing history) with the Aeros.

and i've even read rumors that Mark Cuban is interested in getting a franchise and putting it in San Antonio to aggrivate the Spurs.

Either one would be a nice addition, though i think the Stars might feel pressured with an NHL team sitting in SA- taking fans away from their new AHL team in Cedar Park (Austin).

New York and California have three teams.. why can't Texas pull off at least a second?

[illwauk]

I gotta ask a question to those saying Milwaukee being a potential NHL suitor. Why?

• We averaged 5,873 fans this season (an increase) but not one that screams NHL worthy.

I have a feeling the city of Milwaukee gets lumped into a chilly, hockey-crazy Midwestern town when it is not. The city and area lack a strong high school hockey program. But if the NHL ever comes here, then I will welcome them with open arms and empty pockets.

Doesn't University School have one of the stronger hockey programs in the state? But even still... Milwaukee itself might not have a well-known hockey tradition, but Wisconsin is definitely a hockey state. IIRC, the Badgers have led the NCAA in hockey attendance for the past 5 years. I also think the Admirals attendance is a little misleading. All of the former IHL teams suffered a drop in attendance when they moved to the AHL and none of them have recovered. During the NHL lockout, the Ads were reguarly drawing over 10,000.

I still doubt it'll happen because (as its been pointed out) the NHL won't go head to head with the NBA in smaller markets. I think it's a damn shame because with the way the Bucks have played for the past 2 decades, a Milwaukee NHL club would only have to be moderately successful to outdraw them.