Next Move Or Expansion

[The_Admiral]

Just curious, but why do some of you, as fans of other teams, care about the Coyotes attendance? Does it really effect you at all?

I just don't get comments like "embarrassing" and "get them out of there". Do you all own a stake in the team or something?

As a matter of fact, yes, in some sense. Under the current CBA, the salary cap is a function of total league revenues from the previous year. The more money the league's teams made, the higher the thresholds of the cap go. If you are a fan of a team that operates on a "spend money to make money" model, it is in the best interest of you and your favorite team that there's plenty of money to play with every year so as to build the best possible team, with revenue rising every year or at least plateauing at a healthy high. To that end, you want as many successful franchises as possible, as the underachieving revenue generators not only suck for themselves but drag superior revenue generators down to their level. This is awesome for avaricious skinflints like Jacobs and the Pension Plan, because by maxing out their respective revenues while the stragglers straggle, they don't have to see the cap rise to levels commensurate with their own successes, and thus see their spending limited. Conversely, this is terrible for fans of these teams, fans of plenty of other teams, and Mike Ilitch, because they'd just like to have largely unfettered spending in pursuit of a championship. Phoenix, Atlanta, Miami, et alia are effectively Revenue Leaks. We joke about it, but in this case, it really is advantageous to certain sectors to the NHL that not everyone can own a Toronto Maple Leafs mint. It really is a self-defeating league. This CBA should go down in labor law textbooks as one of the stupidest documents ever drafted.

If it is indeed true that Winnipeg and Quebec City can make more money for the league than Phoenix and Atlanta can, to which all signs seem to point, then as a Blackhawks fan, I want to see those cities come in the league and jack up the cap so that my team can better compete.

[Eye]

If it is indeed true that Winnipeg and Quebec City can make more money for the league than Phoenix and Atlanta can, to which all signs seem to point, then as a Blackhawks fan, I want to see those cities come in the league and jack up the cap so that my team can better compete.

It isn't true about Winnipeg. Quebec City, on the other hand, I don't know enough about a potential arena or ownership situation, so I can't say.

Super edit: Actually, I rescind my comment because as bad an option as Winnipeg would be for a struggling franchise, some of these teams are such ass that Winnipeg would probably would make more money for the league.

[The_Admiral]

Winnipeg and Quebec City seem to have the same business model: own the real estate and use the team to make more money off the real estate. Looking around the league, one will note that many financially successful teams own their buildings and parking lots: Chicago, Montreal, Toronto, Philadelphia, New York, Calgary, Ottawa (we're hurtin' here, guys, the Sens lost money this year, yet curiously, Palladium Parking LLC's profits are through the roof!), Los Angeles, and so forth. Phoenix is in the bad position of not owning or operating its arena, a position that won't change under new ownership, and that's where you make the big bucks in the NHL, since your US over-the-air broadcast deal only pays you 50% of every Geico commercial. The Coyotes play at a mall, so they can't even charge for parking except some cordoned-off "deluxe lot." True North and Quebecor are poised to control more hockey revenue in their towns than any Phoenix owner will.

Oh and I forgot, part of the Coyotes' proposed sale is the enactment of a TIF (well, they call it a CFD, but whatever, stuffing/dressing) around their arena/mall, so as to shirk a portion of the sale price to taxpayers and raise taxes for the purpose of subsidizing a hockey team while more pressing needs go underfunded. This is incredibly embarrassing and makes a lot of people want them to get out of there.

[Lee.]

If it is indeed true that Winnipeg and Quebec City can make more money for the league than Phoenix and Atlanta can, to which all signs seem to point, then as a Blackhawks fan, I want to see those cities come in the league and jack up the cap so that my team can better compete.

It isn't true about Winnipeg. Quebec City, on the other hand, I don't know enough about a potential arena or ownership situation, so I can't say.

Super edit: Actually, I rescind my comment because as bad an option as Winnipeg would be for a struggling franchise, some of these teams are such ass that Winnipeg would probably would make more money for the league.

For any struggling franchise that has to announce 8,000 fans per night rather than their actual attendance, I doubt the case can be made that Winnipeg is a bad option.

[McCall]

L.A. is south enough that it hosting a franchise in the AFC South would make geographic sense.

Not really.

Yes, it's a "southern" city if you're going by latitude, but look at the other teams in that division...Indy, Tennessee, and Houston...nowhere close to LA.

The logical geographic move would be to include KC in the AFC South and Los Angeles (Jacksonville) in the AFC West.

Of course, KC won't ever leave a division w/ Denver, Oakland, and the LA/SD Chargers, we all know that.

A possible scenario if Jacksonville bolts for LA would be "LA" to the NFC West and St. Louis to the AFC South. Recreates the San Francisco/Los Angeles rivalry and puts St. Louis in a division geographically, and level of play, better. It would definately be harder for them to win a division championship there obviously, but with Indy, Tennessee and Houston, the competition would be at a higher level and the teams could form a more geographically improved division. Just a thought.

[omnivore]

I feel bad for Glendale, AZ building an white elephant arena for a sport that has no business being in their market. But that team will never be successful in that market, no matter how much Bettman tries to save face in this situation.

[BigMac12]

I feel bad for Glendale, AZ building an white elephant arena for a sport that has no business being in their market. But that team will never be successful in that market, no matter how much Bettman tries to save face in this situation.

How do you think I, a Coyotes fan, feel after hearing that comment?

[crashcarson15]

I feel bad for Glendale, AZ building an white elephant arena for a sport that has no business being in their market. But that team will never be successful in that market, no matter how much Bettman tries to save face in this situation.

How do you think I, a Coyotes fan, feel after hearing that comment?

How do you think fans of teams whose teams' success can be related to how well the other teams in the league draw think of that comment? You've got the best team you've ever had in Phoenix this year, and you have your worst attendance ever. Having to announce 8,000 as the attendance is just sad, no matter how you spin it.

If you wanna change what the rest of the league thinks about your market, then go to all the games.

[BigMac12]

I feel bad for Glendale, AZ building an white elephant arena for a sport that has no business being in their market. But that team will never be successful in that market, no matter how much Bettman tries to save face in this situation.

How do you think I, a Coyotes fan, feel after hearing that comment?

How do you think fans of teams whose teams' success can be related to how well the other teams in the league draw think of that comment? You've got the best team you've ever had in Phoenix this year, and you have your worst attendance ever. Having to announce 8,000 as the attendance is just sad, no matter how you spin it.

If you wanna change what the rest of the league thinks about your market, then go to all the games.

Honestly, we're waiting to see if we have an owner! God, you guys are unmerciless.

Then again, even if we're sucessful, there's no way we would good in the eyes of everybody.

[crashcarson15]

I feel bad for Glendale, AZ building an white elephant arena for a sport that has no business being in their market. But that team will never be successful in that market, no matter how much Bettman tries to save face in this situation.

How do you think I, a Coyotes fan, feel after hearing that comment?

How do you think fans of teams whose teams' success can be related to how well the other teams in the league draw think of that comment? You've got the best team you've ever had in Phoenix this year, and you have your worst attendance ever. Having to announce 8,000 as the attendance is just sad, no matter how you spin it.

If you wanna change what the rest of the league thinks about your market, then go to all the games.

Honestly, we're waiting to see if we have an owner! God, you guys are unmerciless.

Then again, even if we're sucessful, there's no way we would good in the eyes of everybody.

The lack of an owner shouldn't dictate how many fans show up to the games. And if you can actually be successful in the market, I'm perfectly fine with it. I'm actually a supporter of hockey in non-traditional markets when it works. The issue is, the Coyotes are a liability to this league in many ways, and the PR surrounding this saga doesn't help the league one bit.

As I said earlier, if you wanna change it, then go to more of your team's games.

[BigMac12]

I feel bad for Glendale, AZ building an white elephant arena for a sport that has no business being in their market. But that team will never be successful in that market, no matter how much Bettman tries to save face in this situation.

How do you think I, a Coyotes fan, feel after hearing that comment?

How do you think fans of teams whose teams' success can be related to how well the other teams in the league draw think of that comment? You've got the best team you've ever had in Phoenix this year, and you have your worst attendance ever. Having to announce 8,000 as the attendance is just sad, no matter how you spin it.

If you wanna change what the rest of the league thinks about your market, then go to all the games.

Honestly, we're waiting to see if we have an owner! God, you guys are unmerciless.

Then again, even if we're sucessful, there's no way we would good in the eyes of everybody.

The lack of an owner shouldn't dictate how many fans show up to the games. And if you can actually be successful in the market, I'm perfectly fine with it. I'm actually a supporter of hockey in non-traditional markets when it works. The issue is, the Coyotes are a liability to this league in many ways, and the PR surrounding this saga doesn't help the league one bit.

As I said earlier, if you wanna change it, then go to more of your team's games.

How are we to know to go to the games if we don't have a owner? Geez, you put us to so high a standard that we could never fulfill it.

[crashcarson15]

I feel bad for Glendale, AZ building an white elephant arena for a sport that has no business being in their market. But that team will never be successful in that market, no matter how much Bettman tries to save face in this situation.

How do you think I, a Coyotes fan, feel after hearing that comment?

How do you think fans of teams whose teams' success can be related to how well the other teams in the league draw think of that comment? You've got the best team you've ever had in Phoenix this year, and you have your worst attendance ever. Having to announce 8,000 as the attendance is just sad, no matter how you spin it.

If you wanna change what the rest of the league thinks about your market, then go to all the games.

Honestly, we're waiting to see if we have an owner! God, you guys are unmerciless.

Then again, even if we're sucessful, there's no way we would good in the eyes of everybody.

The lack of an owner shouldn't dictate how many fans show up to the games. And if you can actually be successful in the market, I'm perfectly fine with it. I'm actually a supporter of hockey in non-traditional markets when it works. The issue is, the Coyotes are a liability to this league in many ways, and the PR surrounding this saga doesn't help the league one bit.

As I said earlier, if you wanna change it, then go to more of your team's games.

How are we to know to go to the games if we don't have a owner? Geez, you put us to so high a standard that we could never fulfill it.

How are you to know to go to the games? If you need someone to tell you when the game is, you aren't really a fan of the team...

The lack of an owner should have no effect on a team's attendance. If you really have a good fanbase, then they should be showing up to the games to prove that Phoenix is a viable market and to prove to any potential owners that hockey in Phoenix can work, not proving to any possible owners that it's not and that Winnipeg is a better option.

[BigMac12]

I feel bad for Glendale, AZ building an white elephant arena for a sport that has no business being in their market. But that team will never be successful in that market, no matter how much Bettman tries to save face in this situation.

How do you think I, a Coyotes fan, feel after hearing that comment?

How do you think fans of teams whose teams' success can be related to how well the other teams in the league draw think of that comment? You've got the best team you've ever had in Phoenix this year, and you have your worst attendance ever. Having to announce 8,000 as the attendance is just sad, no matter how you spin it.

If you wanna change what the rest of the league thinks about your market, then go to all the games.

Honestly, we're waiting to see if we have an owner! God, you guys are unmerciless.

Then again, even if we're sucessful, there's no way we would good in the eyes of everybody.

The lack of an owner shouldn't dictate how many fans show up to the games. And if you can actually be successful in the market, I'm perfectly fine with it. I'm actually a supporter of hockey in non-traditional markets when it works. The issue is, the Coyotes are a liability to this league in many ways, and the PR surrounding this saga doesn't help the league one bit.

As I said earlier, if you wanna change it, then go to more of your team's games.

How are we to know to go to the games if we don't have a owner? Geez, you put us to so high a standard that we could never fulfill it.

How are you to know to go to the games? If you need someone to tell you when the game is, you aren't really a fan of the team...

The lack of an owner should have no effect on a team's attendance. If you really have a good fanbase, then they should be showing up to the games to prove that Phoenix is a viable market and to prove to any potential owners that hockey in Phoenix can work, not proving to any possible owners that it's not and that Winnipeg is a better option.

Honestly, how many teams have gone through bankrupcy court? Tell me, if you know all.

There's no way Phoenix can be vindicated in your eyes. Just admit it!

[BigMac12]

BTW, wasn't the Candians teams, like Ottawa, Calgary & Edmonton in financial trouble earlier? Why wasn't their people to ask for them to move? Hmm?

[crashcarson15]

I feel bad for Glendale, AZ building an white elephant arena for a sport that has no business being in their market. But that team will never be successful in that market, no matter how much Bettman tries to save face in this situation.

How do you think I, a Coyotes fan, feel after hearing that comment?

How do you think fans of teams whose teams' success can be related to how well the other teams in the league draw think of that comment? You've got the best team you've ever had in Phoenix this year, and you have your worst attendance ever. Having to announce 8,000 as the attendance is just sad, no matter how you spin it.

If you wanna change what the rest of the league thinks about your market, then go to all the games.

Honestly, we're waiting to see if we have an owner! God, you guys are unmerciless.

Then again, even if we're sucessful, there's no way we would good in the eyes of everybody.

The lack of an owner shouldn't dictate how many fans show up to the games. And if you can actually be successful in the market, I'm perfectly fine with it. I'm actually a supporter of hockey in non-traditional markets when it works. The issue is, the Coyotes are a liability to this league in many ways, and the PR surrounding this saga doesn't help the league one bit.

As I said earlier, if you wanna change it, then go to more of your team's games.

How are we to know to go to the games if we don't have a owner? Geez, you put us to so high a standard that we could never fulfill it.

How are you to know to go to the games? If you need someone to tell you when the game is, you aren't really a fan of the team...

The lack of an owner should have no effect on a team's attendance. If you really have a good fanbase, then they should be showing up to the games to prove that Phoenix is a viable market and to prove to any potential owners that hockey in Phoenix can work, not proving to any possible owners that it's not and that Winnipeg is a better option.

Honestly, how many teams have gone through bankrupcy court? Tell me, if you know all.

There's no way Phoenix can be vindicated in your eyes. Just admit it!

The Texas Rangers just went through bankruptcy court this season, having a very similar caliber of team (during the regular season), and they were 14th in attendance this year. In 1993, the Orioles filed for bankruptcy, but still drew 4th in Major League Baseball. The Senators and Sabres filed for bankruptcy in 2003, and both teams were still top-20 in attendance.

Oh, and if the team can draw 15,000 people like they did in 2008-09 again, I'd have no issue with the Coyotes staying in Phoenix. Hell, I like the Coyotes. But with a team that can't even draw 10,000 people, it's a liability to the league as a whole. Go to the games again, and there will be no issue.

And relating to your above question, they still had people come to the games! That's why nobody asked for them to move! Financial Trouble =/= Bad Fan Support in a lot of cases.

[IceCap]

BTW, wasn't the Candians teams, like Ottawa, Calgary & Edmonton in financial trouble earlier? Why wasn't their people to ask for them to move? Hmm?

Solid attendance and a history of past support in those markets. Phoenix has neither.

As bad as things got in those markets, they never drew crowds as pathetic as what the Coyotes are drawing.

[BigMac12]

BTW, wasn't the Candians teams, like Ottawa, Calgary & Edmonton in financial trouble earlier? Why wasn't their people to ask for them to move? Hmm?

Solid attendance and a history of past support in those markets. Phoenix has neither.

As bad as things got in those markets, they never drew crowds as pathetic as what the Coyotes are drawing.

They drew 12,000 the last game. How much should we draw in order to stop these attacks?

[IceCap]

BTW, wasn't the Candians teams, like Ottawa, Calgary & Edmonton in financial trouble earlier? Why wasn't their people to ask for them to move? Hmm?

Solid attendance and a history of past support in those markets. Phoenix has neither.

As bad as things got in those markets, they never drew crowds as pathetic as what the Coyotes are drawing.

They drew 12,000 the last game. How much should we draw in order to stop these attacks?

Draw that, on a consistent basis. One game in a season full of 5,000-9,000 fans/per game is not a shining model of success. You complain all you want, but you need to realize that the attacks are justified. Draw 12,000 per game on a consistent basis and we'll talk.

[BigMac12]

BTW, wasn't the Candians teams, like Ottawa, Calgary & Edmonton in financial trouble earlier? Why wasn't their people to ask for them to move? Hmm?

Solid attendance and a history of past support in those markets. Phoenix has neither.

As bad as things got in those markets, they never drew crowds as pathetic as what the Coyotes are drawing.

They drew 12,000 the last game. How much should we draw in order to stop these attacks?

Draw that, on a consistent basis. One game in a season full of 5,000-9,000 fans/per game is not a shining model of success. You complain all you want, but you need to realize that the attacks are justified. Draw 12,000 per game on a consistent basis and we'll talk.

And the defense of having a on-again, off-again owneship is not justifed defense? I smell a double standard here.

[rams80]

BTW, wasn't the Candians teams, like Ottawa, Calgary & Edmonton in financial trouble earlier? Why wasn't their people to ask for them to move? Hmm?

I can't speak for Ottawa, but there were attempts to take the Alberta teams to Oklahoma City and Houston during the late 1990s.