The 2010-2011 MLB Offseason Thread

[Lee.]

RIP Ron Santo You were the heart of an otherwise mostly heartless team.

Legendary Chicago Cubs player and broadcaster Ron Santo died Thursday night in Arizona. He was 70.

Friends of Santo's family said the North Side icon lapsed into a coma on Wednesday before dying Thursday.

The former Cubs third baseman had overcome several debilitating injuries, including the amputation of both legs, to continue to work as a Cubs analyst on the team's flagship radio broadcast on WGN-AM 720. He was expected to return for the 2011 season.

First Harry Caray, now Ron Santo. It's like the Bonanza curse, but with broadcasters.

[crashcarson15]

Cleveland Indians' manager Manny Acta says that Luis Valbuena is one of the players that could start at 3B for the Tribe. That's good good for anyone playing Cleveland on those nights.

Oh God. Chisenhall can't get MLB-ready soon enough can he?

[Cujo]

RIP Ron Santo You were the heart of an otherwise mostly heartless team.

Legendary Chicago Cubs player and broadcaster Ron Santo died Thursday night in Arizona. He was 70.

Friends of Santo's family said the North Side icon lapsed into a coma on Wednesday before dying Thursday.

The former Cubs third baseman had overcome several debilitating injuries, including the amputation of both legs, to continue to work as a Cubs analyst on the team's flagship radio broadcast on WGN-AM 720. He was expected to return for the 2011 season.

Truly a sad day on the Northside. One of the greatest Cubs, and Cubs fans, of all-time. It really sucks that the Cubbies couldn't deliver a title before he passed.

R.I.P. Ron.

[The_Admiral]

Based on what exactly? He was a 60's-70's version of Gary Gaetti. Is Gaetti a hall of famer too?

Statistically he's among the ten best third basemen of all time, isn't he? Great batting numbers in a pitching era, at an often-neglected position. Also consider that he achieved that while treating himself for type 1 diabetes some twenty years before the development of today's treatment methods. Being one of the greatest third basemen while also being a pioneer for diabetic athletes should certainly put him in the Hall. The people who oppose him are mostly doing it out of Crusty Old Baseball Man reasons, like "the '69 Cubs can't have any more Hall of Famers," or "I don't like the way he clicked his heels."

[NJTank]

[infrared41]

Based on what exactly? He was a 60's-70's version of Gary Gaetti. Is Gaetti a hall of famer too?

Statistically he's among the ten best third basemen of all time, isn't he? Great batting numbers in a pitching era, at an often-neglected position. Also consider that he achieved that while treating himself for type 1 diabetes some twenty years before the development of today's treatment methods. Being one of the greatest third basemen while also being a pioneer for diabetic athletes should certainly put him in the Hall. The people who oppose him are mostly doing it out of Crusty Old Baseball Man reasons, like "the '69 Cubs can't have any more Hall of Famers," or "I don't like the way he clicked his heels."

1. So stats alone are what make a HOF player? His stats are similar to Gary Gaetti, Graig Nettles (who was a better third baseman), Ken Boyer, and Ron Cey. Are they all hall of famers too? Putting up decent numbers at a position that doesn't have a lot of HOF representation does not make you a hall of famer. It's not baseball's or the hall's fault that there weren't more players like Schimdt, Brett, Robinson, and Matthews. When another HOF worthy third baseman comes along I'm sure he'll get in (Chipper Jones).

2. This ain't the NFL Chief Petty Officer. "A good story" isn't reason for induction into the HOF.

3. Honestly, I'm surprised that you of all people would come up with such an idiotic argument. The reason I don't think Santo is HOF worthy is not because I'm a "crusty old man." It's because he doesn't deserve to be inducted. Then again, unlike you apparently, I actually know something about baseball.

Now go get your thesaurus and try again Private.

[NJTank]

Think of this way lets do it by era. In his era Santo was one of the best 3B in baseball. He deserves to be in.

[The_Admiral]

So you just said Santo can't get in on impressive stats alone and he can't get in on impressive stats plus ancillary achievements? Which is it? Or is he just that undeserving?

He didn't put up "decent numbers." He put up terrific numbers, especially considering the era in which he played. Bill James has Santo at #6 overall among third basemen. You don't think much of me in any respect, but Bill James, unless I've been criminally misled, knows something about baseball. Santo also has better numbers than Brooks Robinson.

I'm not putting forth that "idiotic argument" out of whole cloth, you know. Plenty of people have cited both of those as "intangible" reasons that he can't be allowed in. Now, granted, these people are either as ill-informed as Joe Morgan or actually are Joe Morgan, but the cases have been made.

http://www.athbaseba...ll-of-fame.html

This makes the case better than I can, because evidently I don't know anything about baseball.

[infrared41]

Think of this way lets do it by era. In his era Santo was one of the best 3B in baseball. He deserves to be in.

Then his "era" was a weak one for third baseman. Which, come to think of it, it was.

Your argument is like saying that since Larry Bowa and Don Kessigner were among the best shortstops of their eras that they should be in the HOF as well. Are you ready to make a case for Don Kessinger, Bill Russell, or Mark Belanger?

[infrared41]

So you just said Santo can't get in on impressive stats alone and he can't get in on impressive stats plus ancillary achievements? Which is it? Or is he just that undeserving?

He didn't put up "decent numbers." He put up terrific numbers, especially considering the era in which he played. Bill James has Santo at #6 overall among third basemen. You don't think much of me in any respect, but Bill James, unless I've been criminally misled, knows something about baseball. Santo also has better numbers than Brooks Robinson.

I'm not putting forth that "idiotic argument" out of whole cloth, you know. Plenty of people have cited both of those as "intangible" reasons that he can't be allowed in. Now, granted, these people are either as ill-informed as Joe Morgan or actually are Joe Morgan, but the cases have been made.

http://www.athbaseba...ll-of-fame.html

This makes the case better than I can, because evidently I don't know anything about baseball.

Actually I respect you and your opinion a great deal. I just like giving you a hard time. It's never meant as anything more than a goof. Nine times out of ten I agree with you 100%. When I don't, I try to have a little fun with it.

To your argument; for me, the HOF isn't about stats or ancillary achievements or any combination of the above. It's about greatness plain and simple. Either you were great and it was obvious or you weren't. The argument I've always used is a simple one; if you need to make a player's case then that player probably doesn't deserve induction. When Schmidt, Brett, or Matthews became eligible, did anyone need to argue their cases? Nope. It was obvious. The second you have to start resorting to top ten lists, stats, Bill James, etc. is when you begin to prove my point.

Maybe my standards for HOF induction are too high but I believe a HOF caliber player is obvious and for me, Ron Santo isn't obvious. That's the best way I can explain it to you. Granted, that's a really simplistic way of explaining my position but I don't feel like typing 10 paragraphs in order to give it more depth. I think it's pretty easy to understand.

EDIT: I read the article in your link. I agree, George Kell and Home Run Baker have no business in the HOF either. Also, I've always believed that the "old time" guys get way more credit than they deserve. Until around 1960, those guys played in what amounted to a third of a professional league. Jackie Robinson broke the barrier in 1942 but we didn't see real integration until at least 1960. (I'd argue the playing field wasn't truly level until the 70's)

[The_Admiral]

I agree that the major leagues before integration don't tell the whole story. That said, one of the things that's amazing about baseball is how little the sport evolves. The very fundamentals of pitching and hitting haven't changed much, if it all. Whereas amended rules and new steroids make football players from different eras look they're playing altogether separate sports, Babe Ruth's preternatural hand-eye coordination would be just as impressive in our day as it was in his. I like that. Of course, the fact that he wasn't allowed to use said hand-eye coordination against the best black pitchers of his era is disappointing, but it's hard to argue that placing him in the integrated bigs would suddenly diminish his accomplishments all that much.

[infrared41]

I agree that the major leagues before integration don't tell the whole story. That said, one of the things that's amazing about baseball is how little the sport evolves. The very fundamentals of pitching and hitting haven't changed much, if it all. Whereas amended rules and new steroids make football players from different eras look they're playing altogether separate sports, Babe Ruth's preternatural hand-eye coordination would be just as impressive in our day as it was in his. I like that. Of course, the fact that he wasn't allowed to use said hand-eye coordination against the best black pitchers of his era is disappointing, but it's hard to argue that placing him in the integrated bigs would suddenly diminish his accomplishments all that much.

See? Now normally I just wouldn't respond to that because I agree 100%. Seriously, if I came across like an ass before I apologize. You're one of the great "posters" (ok help me out, what's a better word for that...never mind, I got it) contributors around here. I just assumed that you would get the fact that I was goofing around.

[Brass]

Red Sox have tendered a contract towards Jonathan Papelbon. Can't wait for him to blow the Sox chances in the playoffs for the third straight year.

[infrared41]

Red Sox have tendered a contract towards Jonathan Papelbon. Can't wait for him to blow the Sox chances in the playoffs for the third straight year.

Same here...wait...were you being sarcastic?

Seriously though, you'd think a team like the Red Sox would realize that it's time to find a new closer. Once a closer loses "it", "it" never comes back. Papelbon simply doesn't have "it" anymore. They got some great seasons out of Papelbon. Now it's time to move on. It's now time for Mr. Papelbon to go steal money from some dumb team that believes all he needed was a change of scenery.

[Brass]

Red Sox have tendered a contract towards Jonathan Papelbon. Can't wait for him to blow the Sox chances in the playoffs for the third straight year.

Same here...wait...were you being sarcastic?

Seriously though, you'd think a team like the Red Sox would realize that it's time to find a new closer. Once a closer loses "it", "it" never comes back. Papelbon simply doesn't have "it" anymore. They got some great seasons out of Papelbon. Now it's time to move on. It's now time for Mr. Papelbon to go steal money from some dumb team that believes all he needed was a change of scenery.

Agreed. I've never been a fan of Papelbon. Too much of a show-boater for my taste. Loved his performance in 2006 and 2007, but it irked me the wrong way whenever he did that stupid fist pump or talk about how spectacular he thought he was. I was hoping (despite there being no chance) that Mariano Rivera would sign for two years and then they could give the reigns to Daniel Bard.

[BaltimoreFan]

Think of this way lets do it by era. In his era Santo was one of the best 3B in baseball. He deserves to be in.

Then his "era" was a weak one for third baseman. Which, come to think of it, it was.

Your argument is like saying that since Larry Bowa and Don Kessigner were among the best shortstops of their eras that they should be in the HOF as well. Are you ready to make a case for Don Kessinger, Bill Russell, or Mark Belanger?

I agree, the HOF isn't about being the best at your posistion in an era. It's about being the best in baseball in an era. I can't really comment about Santo, since I don't know much about his career (other than that alot of people claim he is the best player not in the Hall of Fame). Looking at his similar players on baseball-reference, he was most similar from ages 21-31 to Adrian Beltre (Beltre is 31, so it could continue). I would say Beltre is very good, but not HOF worthy (of course there is still time for his career). Unfortunately there are going to be players that are very good, but not HOF worthy. I'm leaning towards that for Santo, but I'd have to look closer at his career before making a decision.

[Cujo]

The Red Sox are working on a deal that would bring Padres 1B Adrian Gonzalez to Boston.

http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/mlb/news/story?id=5880440

[epper]

The Red Sox are working on a deal that would bring Padres 1B Adrian Gonzalez to Boston.

http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/mlb/news/story?id=5880440

Well the Padres Firesale has begun. Gonzalez is gone to the Sox for SP Casey Kelly, 1B Anthony Rizzo, and OF Reymond Fuentes. Boston's #1, #3 and #6 prospects (according to Baseball America.) respectively. Not a bad haul for the Padres.

Rosenthal reports Heath Bell is next up on the trade block. Would be a fantastic addition for the closer-needy Jays!

Are there even any Padres fans on this board to give their feelings on the current state of the franchise?

[The_Admiral]

Teams need new ballparks to remain competitive. I recommend that the Padres oh

[Brass]

Adrian Gonzalez, welcome to Boston!