BASEBALL ALL-TIME DRAFT: Discussion Thread (PLEASE LOCK)

[Dexter Morgan]

I think their is a pretty good comp to Kenny Lofton still on the board.

Brett Butler was it.

[infrared41]

Is there a maximum on the number of relief pitchers we're allowed to have?

I rather have 12 or 13 pitchers then have have 5 or 6 bench players. I can make do with having 3 or 4 guys coming off the bench.

Gotta fill out the bench spots. Catcher, corner infielder, middle infielder, corner outfielder, center fielder. You can have an extra pitcher if you don't draft a DH.

One more question; with pitchers, "bullpen experience" means we can put closers in regular reliever slots right? For example, Henke is my closer but I also chose Rod Beck as a reliever. Also, I used Mike Cuellar as the one starter allowed in the bullpen. Just want to make sure I'm doing this right.

[pmoehrin]

Is there a maximum on the number of relief pitchers we're allowed to have?

I rather have 12 or 13 pitchers then have have 5 or 6 bench players. I can make do with having 3 or 4 guys coming off the bench.

Gotta fill out the bench spots. Catcher, corner infielder, middle infielder, corner outfielder, center fielder. You can have an extra pitcher if you don't draft a DH.

One more question; with pitchers, "bullpen experience" means we can put closers in regular reliever slots right? For example, Henke is my closer but I also chose Rod Beck as a reliever. Also, I used Mike Cuellar as the one starter allowed in the bullpen. Just want to make sure I'm doing this right.

All five of my guys I would consider closers first. Even I'd be hard pressed to find many good relievers out there who weren't primarily closers for their career.

[Dexter Morgan]

Is there a maximum on the number of relief pitchers we're allowed to have?

I rather have 12 or 13 pitchers then have have 5 or 6 bench players. I can make do with having 3 or 4 guys coming off the bench.

Gotta fill out the bench spots. Catcher, corner infielder, middle infielder, corner outfielder, center fielder. You can have an extra pitcher if you don't draft a DH.

One more question; with pitchers, "bullpen experience" means we can put closers in regular reliever slots right? For example, Henke is my closer but I also chose Rod Beck as a reliever. Also, I used Mike Cuellar as the one starter allowed in the bullpen. Just want to make sure I'm doing this right.

A closer can be your middle reliever or setup man yes. Also, keep in mind you can draft a starting pitcher to be your long man, even if he has no bullpen experience.

[pmoehrin]

I think their is a pretty good comp to Kenny Lofton still on the board.

Brett Butler was it.

I thought Butler was the better player.

Thing with Lofton is that he came up late and peaked pretty quickly. For that short stretch he had from '92-'97 only Ken Griffey was a better centerfielder, but by the time you get to '99 his best days are already behind him and that's his eighth full season.

Butler doesen't has a stretch of dominance like that but over the length of his career I feel he's a much more consistent player.

[infrared41]

I think their is a pretty good comp to Kenny Lofton still on the board.

Brett Butler was it.

Totally forgot about Brett Butler. He was a pretty solid player. I don't know if I'd say he's equal to Lofton. Maybe a poor man's Kenny Lofton. I'm guessing that the sabermetric stats probably show them as being pretty close, but having seen them both play, I think Lofton was the better player by a decent margin.

Then again, I know nothing about sabermetrics so it's entirely possible I have no idea what I'm talking about. All I know is that if the game is on the line and the choice on who I want at the plate in the ninth is between Butler or Lofton , I'm not even hesitating before I tell Kenny to grab a bat. Honestly, I'd probably pinch hit for Butler in the same situation. I have no idea how sabermetrics measures that sort of thing. I just remember Lofton being way more (get ready statheads, here comes that awful word) clutch than Butler.

[infrared41]

I think their is a pretty good comp to Kenny Lofton still on the board.

Brett Butler was it.

I thought Butler was the better player.

Thing with Lofton is that he came up late and peaked pretty quickly. For that short stretch he had from '92-'97 only Ken Griffey was a better centerfielder, but by the time you get to '99 his best days are already behind him and that's his eighth full season.

Butler doesen't has a stretch of dominance like that but over the length of his career I feel he's a much more consistent player.

OK, I was doing my best to keep my mouth shut over posts like this but that is just absurd. I don't care what your rankings or stats say, Brett Butler was not a better player than Kenny Lofton. No way. No how. No offense dude, but at some point you have to start considering what actually happened on the field. Kenny Lofton was still hitting .300 at age 39.

I get that these new stats can measure a lot of things, but when they start telling you that Butler was better than Lofton, or that Ben Zobrist is the best player in baseball, it's time to put down the paperwork and start watching the games.

[mania]

I think it's crazy to think Butler would be a better player. Absolutely :censored:ing nuts.

Lofton had the slightly higher wOBA for their career, but Butler was kind of a butcher out in the field. You compare their Runs Above Average... Lofton was worth 114 runs over the course of his career, while Butler COST his team 83 runs over the course of his career compared to the average CF.

[infrared41]

I think it's crazy to think Butler would be a better player. Absolutely :censored:ing nuts.

Lofton had the slightly higher wOBA for their career, but Butler was kind of a butcher out in the field. You compare their Runs Above Average... Lofton was worth 114 runs over the course of his career, while Butler COST his team 83 runs over the course of his career compared to the average CF.

There's all that and the fact that anyone with eyes knows that Brett Butler wasn't as good as Kenny Lofton. I'm hardly in the "SABERMETRICS ARE EVUL" camp, but there are times when I just roll my eyes and wonder if the saber-freaks actually watch baseball. The "Butler was better than Lofton" statement is one of those times.

[pmoehrin]

I think their is a pretty good comp to Kenny Lofton still on the board.

Brett Butler was it.

Totally forgot about Brett Butler. He was a pretty solid player. I don't know if I'd say he's equal to Lofton. Maybe a poor man's Kenny Lofton. I'm guessing that the sabermetric stats probably show them as being pretty close, but having seen them both play, I think Lofton was the better player by a decent margin.

Then again, I know nothing about sabermetrics so it's entirely possible I have no idea what I'm talking about. All I know is that if the game is on the line and the choice on who I want at the plate in the ninth is between Butler or Lofton , I'm not even hesitating before I tell Kenny to grab a bat. Honestly, I'd probably pinch hit for Butler in the same situation. I have no idea how sabermetrics measures that sort of thing. I just remember Lofton being way more (get ready statheads, here comes that awful word) clutch than Butler.

At they're best Lofton is a better player. But over the course of their careers I gotta go Butler.

Defensively I'd rate the two about as equal as you can get. Lofton leads the league in range factor once, so does Brett Butler. Lofton is top ten in range factor five times, Butler is six. Lofton leads the league is assists twice and is top ten five times, Buter is top ten four times.

Lofton leads the league in steals every year from '92-'96 but then only finishes top ten 3 times. Butler as I said earlier is top ten 13 times. So top ten 8 times and leading the league five times versus top ten 13 times, I'll give the slight edge to Lofton.

Its offense though were Butler beats him out. A .372 OBP in the teeth of the steroid era for Lofton versus a .377 OBP for Butler. 5 points doesen't seem like much but after you factor in the eras you get one guy finishing top ten 3 times versus Butler who did it seven times.

AB's per stirkeouts are about the same. I'll give Lofton the edge power wise but I don't regard someone who barely cracked 100 home runs in the steroid era as much of a power hitter, so the difference is marginal. OPS of .794 versus .753 can be explained by era difference.

To me Butler is the better offensive player, equal defensively and slightly slower then Lofton.

[infrared41]

Also, keep in mind you can draft a starting pitcher to be your long man, even if he has no bullpen experience.

Just one right? If so, I already drafted Mike Cuellar for that role.

[mania]

I think it's crazy to think Butler would be a better player. Absolutely :censored:ing nuts.

Lofton had the slightly higher wOBA for their career, but Butler was kind of a butcher out in the field. You compare their Runs Above Average... Lofton was worth 114 runs over the course of his career, while Butler COST his team 83 runs over the course of his career compared to the average CF.

There's all that and the fact that anyone with eyes knows that Brett Butler wasn't as good as Kenny Lofton. I'm hardly in the "SABERMETRICS ARE EVUL" camp, but there are times when I just roll my eyes and wonder if the saber-freaks actually watch baseball. The "Butler was better than Lofton" statement is one of those times.

Well, there's no stats out there that would back it up. That's the thing.

Now, as for me, I'm not going to just use my eyes, partially because Butler's rookie season was the year I was born. I remember seeing him play, but definitely not during the early part of his career, so having some stats that backup what my perception was from seeing them play helps.

[infrared41]

I think their is a pretty good comp to Kenny Lofton still on the board.

Brett Butler was it.

Totally forgot about Brett Butler. He was a pretty solid player. I don't know if I'd say he's equal to Lofton. Maybe a poor man's Kenny Lofton. I'm guessing that the sabermetric stats probably show them as being pretty close, but having seen them both play, I think Lofton was the better player by a decent margin.

Then again, I know nothing about sabermetrics so it's entirely possible I have no idea what I'm talking about. All I know is that if the game is on the line and the choice on who I want at the plate in the ninth is between Butler or Lofton , I'm not even hesitating before I tell Kenny to grab a bat. Honestly, I'd probably pinch hit for Butler in the same situation. I have no idea how sabermetrics measures that sort of thing. I just remember Lofton being way more (get ready statheads, here comes that awful word) clutch than Butler.

At they're best Lofton is a better player. But over the course of their careers I gotta go Butler.

Defensively I'd rate the two about as equal as you can get. Lofton leads the league in range factor once, so does Brett Butler. Lofton is top ten in range factor five times, Butler is six. Lofton leads the league is assists twice and is top ten five times, Buter is top ten four times.

Lofton leads the league in steals every year from '92-'96 but then only finishes top ten 3 times. Butler as I said earlier is top ten 13 times. So top ten 8 times and leading the league five times versus top ten 13 times, I'll give the slight edge to Lofton.

Its offense though were Butler beats him out. A .372 OBP in the teeth of the steroid era for Lofton versus a .377 OBP for Butler. 5 points doesen't seem like much but after you factor in the eras you get one guy finishing top ten 3 times versus Butler who did it seven times.

AB's per stirkeouts are about the same. I'll give Lofton the edge power wise but I don't regard someone who barely cracked 100 home runs in the steroid era as much of a power hitter, so the difference is marginal. OPS of .794 versus .753 can be explained by era difference.

To me Butler is the better offensive player, equal defensively and slightly slower then Lofton.

That's all great, if you're playing strat-o-matic baseball. On the field it doesn't mean squat. Lofton was better. Period. I know this because I watched both Lofton and Butler play many times over the course of their careers. I don't care who finished where in most times grounding out to second with two strikes and a man on third, Kenny Lofton was a better baseball player than Brett Butler. If you saw them both play for any extended amount of time, you'd already know that.

[infrared41]

I'd love to keep debating this but I'm holding up the draft. Let me go pick someone with 500 home runs and a .300 lifetime average. Then pmoehrin can tell me how the stats say I should have went with Duane Kuiper instead.

[pmoehrin]

I think it's crazy to think Butler would be a better player. Absolutely :censored:ing nuts.

Lofton had the slightly higher wOBA for their career, but Butler was kind of a butcher out in the field. You compare their Runs Above Average... Lofton was worth 114 runs over the course of his career, while Butler COST his team 83 runs over the course of his career compared to the average CF.

Now that's nuts. The guy is pretty damn fast and has three full seasons where he doesen't commit a single error in the field. So if he has great range and hardly makes many errors where does the butcher part come in?

He doesen't have the best arm in the world I'll give you that, but I wouldn't say he had a pea shooter either.

[pmoehrin]

I think their is a pretty good comp to Kenny Lofton still on the board.

Brett Butler was it.

Totally forgot about Brett Butler. He was a pretty solid player. I don't know if I'd say he's equal to Lofton. Maybe a poor man's Kenny Lofton. I'm guessing that the sabermetric stats probably show them as being pretty close, but having seen them both play, I think Lofton was the better player by a decent margin.

Then again, I know nothing about sabermetrics so it's entirely possible I have no idea what I'm talking about. All I know is that if the game is on the line and the choice on who I want at the plate in the ninth is between Butler or Lofton , I'm not even hesitating before I tell Kenny to grab a bat. Honestly, I'd probably pinch hit for Butler in the same situation. I have no idea how sabermetrics measures that sort of thing. I just remember Lofton being way more (get ready statheads, here comes that awful word) clutch than Butler.

At they're best Lofton is a better player. But over the course of their careers I gotta go Butler.

Defensively I'd rate the two about as equal as you can get. Lofton leads the league in range factor once, so does Brett Butler. Lofton is top ten in range factor five times, Butler is six. Lofton leads the league is assists twice and is top ten five times, Buter is top ten four times.

Lofton leads the league in steals every year from '92-'96 but then only finishes top ten 3 times. Butler as I said earlier is top ten 13 times. So top ten 8 times and leading the league five times versus top ten 13 times, I'll give the slight edge to Lofton.

Its offense though were Butler beats him out. A .372 OBP in the teeth of the steroid era for Lofton versus a .377 OBP for Butler. 5 points doesen't seem like much but after you factor in the eras you get one guy finishing top ten 3 times versus Butler who did it seven times.

AB's per stirkeouts are about the same. I'll give Lofton the edge power wise but I don't regard someone who barely cracked 100 home runs in the steroid era as much of a power hitter, so the difference is marginal. OPS of .794 versus .753 can be explained by era difference.

To me Butler is the better offensive player, equal defensively and slightly slower then Lofton.

That's all great, if you're playing strat-o-matic baseball. On the field it doesn't mean squat. Lofton was better. Period. I know this because I watched both Lofton and Butler play many times over the course of their careers. I don't care who finished where in most times grounding out to second with two strikes and a man on third, Kenny Lofton was a better baseball player than Brett Butler. If you saw them both play for any extended amount of time, you'd already know that.

I'm not seven. I saw both Lofton and Butler played.

I saw the Kenny Lofton that was a superstar for Cleveland from '92-'97. I also saw the Kenny Lofton who was living soley on his reputation after that. That Kenny Lofton was a .290 singles hitter that wasn't as fast and wasn't even close to as good of a defensive player as he used to be. I even said at their peak Lofton was the better player. Butler had the better career. If you don't want to agree with it that's fine. I don't base my arguments on my own emotional feelings. That's the whole idea behind sabermetrics. When it comes to feelings people are lawlers not scientists. We get an idea in our head we accept all the data that supports it and reject everything that doesen't. Very hard to overcome it and we are all guilty of that.

[infrared41]

I think it's crazy to think Butler would be a better player. Absolutely :censored:ing nuts.

Lofton had the slightly higher wOBA for their career, but Butler was kind of a butcher out in the field. You compare their Runs Above Average... Lofton was worth 114 runs over the course of his career, while Butler COST his team 83 runs over the course of his career compared to the average CF.

Now that's nuts. The guy is pretty damn fast and has three full seasons where he doesen't commit a single error in the field. So if he has great range and hardly makes many errors where does the butcher part come in?

He doesen't have the best arm in the world I'll give you that, but I wouldn't say he had a pea shooter either.

You're right. In baseball we don't call it a "pea shooter", we call it a rag arm and that's what he had. He threw lollipops.

[oddball]

See, you guys are arguing two different issues. Kenny Lofton was not the better player, he was the better athlete that had better stats. As a sound fundamental player, Brett Butler was an excellent player, but did not have the athleticism and the longevity that Lofton had. I think as players they were even, the athleticism is what gives Lofton the edge. I hope that makes sense.

[pmoehrin]

See, you guys are arguing two different issues. Kenny Lofton was not the better player, he was the better athlete that had better stats. As a sound fundamental player, Brett Butler was an excellent player, but did not have the athleticism and the longevity that Lofton had. I think as players they were even, the athleticism is what gives Lofton the edge. I hope that makes sense.

Well he did have the longevity Lofton had. Both played 17 years and Butler has 300 more PA's.

I don't have much of an issue with people saying Lofton is a better player. People disagree all the time. But its not a slam dunk which is the issue I have. Just because someone is the more popular player doesen't make him better. And Kenny Lofton was an immensely popular player. Brett Butler was not. You can't tell me that's not going to have an effect.

The thing I think the debate boils down between is the guy who had 5 or 6 monster years and then was average better then the guy who was very good but never great but who's numbers were straight line for over a decade plus. You can't tell what Brett Butler's best year is at eye ball's glance. I think it was '85 but you can say '91 was as well. With Lofton I think without question its '94. He's hitting .349 at the time of the strike, has 60 steals with 12 home runs. Granted I treat it as a full season but he's leading the league in hits and stolen bases at the time of the strike and think he was the best outfielder in the game that year.

At no point would I say Brett Butler is the best outfielder in the game, Lofton I feel has that title for a very short time frame, but he still has it. If the draft is based solely on guys at their peak then Darin Erstad all of a sudden becomes viable option to have. Sometimes I go with the guy who had the higher peak over the guy who's numbers were more plateaued, sometimes I don't. This is one of the cases where I don't.

[infrared41]

I'm not seven. I saw both Lofton and Butler played.

I don't base my arguments on my own emotional feelings. That's the whole idea behind sabermetrics. When it comes to feelings people are lawlers not scientists. We get an idea in our head we accept all the data that supports it and reject everything that doesen't. Very hard to overcome it and we are all guilty of that.

Nor do I. I have no emotional attachment to Kenny Lofton. Quite the contrary in fact. As someone who works in radio and TV, I can tell you from personal experience that Lofton is a complete ass-hole more often than not. He's not a "good" guy. He's a jerk. If I were letting my emotions influence my assessment, I'd be telling you that Omar Moreno was twice the center fielder Lofton was. (and I have no idea what a "lawler" is.)

My opinion is based on who I think had more potential to impact any given game. For instance, Brett Butler might go 2-4 with a double but it more often than not, it would be a "quiet" 2-4. Lofton's 2-4, on the other hand, was more likely to "impact" the game. In other words, Lofton was more "clutch." I realize that sabermetrics doesn't believe in "clutch." As someone who played baseball until I was 34, I can tell you that the ability to deliver "in the clutch" is something that cannot be measured. Like it or not, believe it or not, there are guys you want hitting in a particular situation and guys you don't. A perfect example is A-Rod. My guess is the guy is a fantasy leaguer's wet dream, but for the longest time, the wrap on A-Rod was that he didn't deliver when it mattered. And it was true.

My point is that I watched Kenny Lofton deliver in many "clutch" situations. As solid a ballplayer as he was, Brett Butler simply did not have that quality. My most lasting memory of Brett Butler is watching him bunt to the pitcher to make the last out of the 1989 World Series. I'm fairly certain that even your emotionless sabermetrics would tell you that bunting with two outs and no one on is a pretty low percentage play. To me, that's the key difference between Butler and Lofton. And it's also the difference that sabermetrics can't show you.

Side note: Saying Butler wasn't "popular" isn't entirely correct. When Butler was with the Braves and "SuperStation" WTBS was showing all of their games, Butler was one of the most popular players on the team; especially so with the ladies. There was a time when Butler was a very "popular" player.