2012 MLB Season

[Sport]

Tank, you're just afraid of learning new things, which is probably why you've never bothered to LEARN TO PUNCTUATE!

__________________________________

This is an interesting debate because it brings the new school line of thinking (which I side with) with the Tanks of the world. Trout leads in every statistic that actually determines total player value. Trout is more valuable to his team than Cabrera. The Angels won more games than the Tigers too so even the "the Tigers made the playoffs and the Angels didn't" argument should be thrown out.

I understand the argument for Miguel Cabrera. There's a romance associated with the Triple Crown and that's primarily because it hasn't been done for 45 years, but I think we're smarter now than we were when the Triple Crown was first defined. Average, home runs, and R'sBI are not the most important stats for determining player value. They're a part of it, but not the whole part. So the debate has basically boiled down to, call it, baseball intellectualism vs. General Anti-intellectualism (tank).

The baseball romantic in me would love to vote for Cabrera, but I can't. Trout is more valuable. Also, I think Cabrera's benefiting from a down year in all three statistical categories. I don't want to look it up, but I'm certain there's been guys who've had better years in all three categories and didn't win the TC.

[rams80]

Dear God I hate sabemetrics so much, it is ruining the sport. What makes baseball special is any slob can understand the stats and numbers its easilly calcuable and brings fathers and sons together as they keep a scorebook and stats like RBI, average, Home Runs you know the big three the historic three the most imporntant stats in the game since 1869. Take the WAR, RZR and UZR and place them in a septic tank and keep the DRS in the hospital.

Yeah, ummm, unfortunately for George Will football has supplanted baseball as the "sports opiate of the masses" so dumbing down the analysis to appeal to said masses is kind of pointless.

For what it's worth, given that any statistical analysis for baseball more or less boils down to increasingly refined probability calculations, I think that sticking to hard, simple numbers does a disservice to analysis, one that should not be sought out.

[Kramerica Industries]

WAR?

Are you kidding me

Home Runs RBI and hits win games WAR is fought in Afghanistan

Home runs, RBI, and Hits win games because they lead to runs. Runs win games. Trout has scored more runs than Cabrera.

Runs.

The Triple Crown is unique and has not been done in 45 years, Mike Trout is a great player and deserves the Rookie of the Year and I am sure there will be MVP awards to come, but Cabrera is the MVP and it will be highway robbery if he does not get it plus the Tigers won the Central and it was due to Miguel Cabrera having a monster last few weeks.

Angels have a better record than the Tigers, and they played far more games against tough divisional opponents than the Tigers.

That is such a friggen non-sequitir that I don't even know where to start.

[TheOldRoman]

BTW, Trout deserves the AL MVP. His wOBA is very close to Cabrera's, but he creates more runs for his team. Defensively, there's NO comparison between Trout and Cabrera. Trout is much better, and the stats prove it: up there with Ichiro in UZR, 1st in DRS in the AL, an excellent .942 RZR.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but do you think those buffoons who vote for these awards take into account wOBA, UZR, DRS, and RZR? I doubt some (many?) don't even know what they mean.

I think the "buffoons" are the ones who place value on nonsensical stats like that over statistics which measure actual events. Can you tell me what those stats measure? What units are they in? If all a stat tells you is "player is good", it's worthless. It's even sillier to use defensive statistics in arguments when even the most ardent stathead acknowledges and no defensive statistics are really very good at all. You know how I know Trout is good defensively? I have seen him play. His play is excellent at one of the most important defensive positions on the field. Cabrera, meanwhile, plays a far less important position and only "plays" it in the sense that he stands at that position on the field. He has soft hands and can throw, but he is a fat slob who can't get to anything hit more than a foot away from him. It's okay to say that Trout provides a value defensively and Cabrera is a defensive liability without having to use an incredibly faulty statistic to prove it.

[Sport]

This is essentially the same argument we had with Tank when he espoused that Felix Hernandez shouldn't win the Cy Young because he only had 12 wins on a terrible M's team despite being the best pitcher in every other stat.

Cabrera will probably win and I'll be fine with that, but I don't think it's a slam dunk that just because he was the best in three arbitrary statistics, one of which is contingent on having a lot of teammates on base, means that he's automatically the league's most valuable player.

[MEANS]

I find it amusing that the Cubs basically took a year off and still had a more beneficial season than the White Sox. Got some young players to test their mettle, broke in a new manager in a no-pressure situation, and "earned" a high draft pick. The Sox flubbed away yet another "win now" season, missed the playoffs, and now have to dismantle.

typical scrubs fan bs, young players? did you see how many rookie pitchers we used?

first place for the majority of the season when nobody gave us a chance with a rookie manager

we will still get a decent draft pick

this was NOT a win now season and we may have a slighty different look but there will not be any dismantle

KW got rid off some salary and picked up Youk,Liriano, and Myers for scraps and do not have to bring them back if they don't want to.

Typical White Sox fan, reverting to tacky name-calling and can barely use grammar/punctuation.

edit: forget it. I'm not going to waste any more time on this. Crawl back into your hole and go back to lurking.

Yeah, I see how you didn't defend any of your statements. There's always next year to do that.

[DarkJourney]

What a great night in Bay Area baseball last night:

-Giants ending the Dodgers season (HA!)

-A's forcing today's winner take all with the Rangers.

[NJTank]

Dear God I hate sabemetrics so much, it is ruining the sport. What makes baseball special is any slob can understand the stats and numbers its easilly calcuable and brings fathers and sons together as they keep a scorebook and stats like RBI, average, Home Runs you know the big three the historic three the most imporntant stats in the game since 1869. Take the WAR, RZR and UZR and place them in a septic tank and keep the DRS in the hospital.

I just lost a lot of respect for you Tank. That is one of the stupidest posts I've read on this board.

I am sorry I just dont believe in sabermetrics. I believe only in tangible stats. I accept WHIP and OPS because they measure something taht is tangible, but what is UZR and RZR any way? These stats mean nothing to me.

Personally I like Trout better, he is a Jersey Boy and I am no fan of Miguel Cabrera, I have been down on him since he was too drunk to finish the 2008 season. He also takes games off and does not give a whit about defense. However he won the triple crown, had a clutch Spetember and his team won the AL Central. That is what a MVP does.

[infrared41]

It's okay to say that Trout provides a value defensively and Cabrera is a defensive liability without having to use an incredibly faulty statistic to prove it.

Exactly. It doesn't take a formula to figure out that Trout is keeping a lot more runs off the board than Cabrera is. I'm not against SABR stats, but I don't believe they're definitive either.

Here's the thing, if we're giving the MVP award to the best player, it's Trout in a walk. Who was "most valuable" to their team is where the debate starts. Would the Tigers be where they are without Cabrera's triple crown season? Probably not. (FWIW, Cabrera's triple crown season is his "worst" season of the last three.) Would the Angels be where they are without Trout? Probably not. So the question becomes which team would be worse off without their respective MVP candidates?

In the end, I think it has to come down to who had the most impact on the scoreboard; both putting runs on it and keeping runs off it, and in my book, that player is Mike Trout.

Yeah, earlier I said I'd split my vote, but I changed my mind. Trout is just the more complete player.

[Epiphanic]

If two teams tie for the division and have both clinched the postseason, how do they decide who wins the division? Divisional One game playoff?

Using tie-breakers like head-to-head or whatever were used in that scenario when there was only one wild-card, but now that winning the division "means something", we'd have a tie-breaker game to determine the divisional crown. So if the Yankees lose and the Orioles win today, they'd have a tie-breaker game to determine the AL East winner tomorrow. And then the loser would host the loser of the Texas-Oakland game today (that team would be the 2nd wild card).

This is why baseball is awesome.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-10-01/sports/bal-tickets-for-potential-orioles-yankees-tiebreaker-to-go-on-sale-tomorrow-20121001_1_ticket-holders-sale-tomorrow-breaker

[CS85]

Yeah, I see how you didn't defend any of your statements. There's always next year to do that.

If anyone ever wanted to know why Cubs/Sox fans don't like each other, crap like this is precisely why.

[OnWis97]

It's okay to say that Trout provides a value defensively and Cabrera is a defensive liability without having to use an incredibly faulty statistic to prove it.

Exactly. It doesn't take a formula to figure out that Trout is keeping a lot more runs off the board than Cabrera is. I'm not against SABR stats, but I don't believe they're definitive either.

Here's the thing, if we're giving the MVP award to the best player, it's Trout in a walk. Who was "most valuable" to their team is where the debate starts. Would the Tigers be where they are without Cabrera's triple crown season? Probably not. (FWIW, Cabrera's triple crown season is his "worst" season of the last three.) Would the Angels be where they are without Trout? Probably not. So the question becomes which team would be worse off without their respective MVP candidates?

In the end, I think it has to come down to who had the most impact on the scoreboard; both putting runs on it and keeping runs off it, and in my book, that player is Mike Trout.

Yeah, earlier I said I'd split my vote, but I changed my mind. Trout is just the more complete player.

I have no doubt that Trout is a more complete player. Given that Cabrera has little speed and adequate (at best) defense, every team in MLB probably has a couple of "more complete players" (except the Twins). But that does not necessarily mean he's had the better year this year. Cabrara had a monster year at the plate. The question is whether the other things Trout's done makes up for it...and I am in the politically correct camp that says "I can't complain either way."

That all said, I am kinda pulling for Cabrera...maybe I just long for the day (which really is like 10 years ago) when the triple crown meant something. I know that two of the three stats are quite flawed...I guess I just miss the good ole days when we cared about these number. I can sympathize with Tank on some level (though I was glad King Felix won the Cy Young); I don't know and am not particularly interested in who won the WAR title in previous years...WAR to me has a "QB rating" feel. As discussed above, it tries to include defense, which is almost impossible to quatify and I don't really think that if someone has a WAR of 5, that his team would have won five fewer games if he was not there. But yeah, we all know that traditional stats are not the best way to measure ballplayers.

Re: fielding. It seems we've come full circle. In the deadball era it was as important as hitting. Then we forgot about it. Now that we think we can quantify it into a big overall score along with hitting, it's back in vogue.

15 years ago, this triple crown chase would have been a big deal and Cabrera would have recieved every non-California first place vote. (Conversely if this was Derek Jeter, it's all we'd be hearing about down the strech in 2012). Part of me misses that, but the fact is that the triple crown stats are not what they used to be; actually they never were what they used to be. Batting average (according to "Moneyball", the book) was established in like the 1860s when walking was bordering on shameful. RBI are somewhat a function of luck (I thougth of that when I was like 8, but my father shot me down and talked about how it indicates hitting in the clutch, so I bought in...I was smarter at 8). You cannot win a triple crown and not have a very good year, but it does not have to mean you're the best.

It's the beauty of baseball. It has the most statistics, and seems easiest to quantify, but at the end, we're all just using our "guts."

Anyway, I'd say Cabrera wins, but by a slight margin.

[TheOldRoman]

Yeah, I see how you didn't defend any of your statements. There's always next year to do that.

If anyone ever wanted to know why Cubs/Sox fans don't like each other, crap like this is precisely why.

Right. Cubs fan makes nonsensically optimistic post about Cubs, shows ignorance about Sox' season, essentially saying "Haha, you guys suck even though you won 20 more games. We are TOTALLY turning it around right now and yous are gonna suck so hard. World Series, Baby!" He is called out on it, throws barb and then backs away. Later, throws hands in the air and claims martyr status. The only thing missing from the Cubs meatball total package are the "we are better because we have higher attendance" and a "Comiskey Park - World's Largest Ghetto" t-shirt.

[CS85]

Yeah, I see how you didn't defend any of your statements. There's always next year to do that.

If anyone ever wanted to know why Cubs/Sox fans don't like each other, crap like this is precisely why.

Right. Cubs fan makes nonsensically optimistic post about Cubs, shows ignorance about Sox' season, essentially saying "Haha, you guys suck even though you won 20 more games. We are TOTALLY turning it around right now and yous are gonna suck so hard. World Series, Baby!" He is called out on it, throws barb and then backs away. Later, throws hands in the air and claims martyr status. The only thing missing from the Cubs meatball total package are the "we are better because we have higher attendance" and a "Comiskey Park - World's Largest Ghetto" t-shirt.

Here's the proper formula:

- Cubs fan posts anything insinuating some semblance of enthusiasm/jab at Sox

- Sox fan, disregarding that they have the high road (recent title, obvious cub team in ashes), has to put Cubs fan in his place

- Cubs fan notes that Sox fans are generally braying jackasses, but sees a flame war and bows out

- Sox fan, disgruntled that flame war did not ensue, continues to poke and prod, ever-seeking the chance to remind the community that the Cubs haven't won a title in over a century, "unfairly" draw more to their overblown ballpark, and are in general stupid fans that root for the wrong Chicago baseball team

- Cubs fan writes rebuttal post, saddened that he has to do so for the 1000th time and makes mental note never to bring up the White Sox ever again so he doesn't have to deal with the same old tired crap from their bitter, snarky fan base

[Kramerica Industries]

To much less fanfare than Kerry Wood, Ben Sheets ends his injury-riddled career with a 95 mph fastball for a strikeout. Was definitely a solid gesture by the Braves to let Sheets get into this game, given the irrelevance of this game for them.

[Epiphanic]

In more important news:

TEDDY WINS!

[NJTank]

BULLY!!!!

[CS85]

525 consecutive losses?! He was certainly due.

[pmoehrin]

Good for Teddy. Let the poor guy win one.

Does anyone have a video link?

[CS85]

Good for Teddy. Let the poor guy win one.

Does anyone have a video link?

http://deadspin.com/5948669/93-years-after-his-death-teddy-roosevelt-finally-wins-the-presidents-race-at-nationals-park?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow