The Big Ol' Counterfeit Jersey Thread

[charger77]

...

[Howie_16]

I'm really surprised that nobody's played devil's advocate here and said something to the effect of "the American founding fathers were committing illegal acts when they declared independence." Could there be a positive aspect, one of protest perhaps, to the illegality angle?

Do not make the mistake that "legal = ethical" and vice-versa. While I am not an American and probably have not studied your history as much as many of you have, the actual "Declaration of Independence" may have been illegal, but at its heart is not "unethical". The Nuremberg Laws and "Jim Crow" type laws & enforcement may have been "legal", but they are certainly not "ethical".

Smoking or possessing marijiana is illegal (even though I don't do it) and you may be supporting organized crime if you purchase it, but does that automatically make it "unethical"?

[loogodude90]

I'm really surprised that nobody's played devil's advocate here and said something to the effect of "the American founding fathers were committing illegal acts when they declared independence." Could there be a positive aspect, one of protest perhaps, to the illegality angle?

Do not make the mistake that "legal = ethical" and vice-versa. While I am not an American and probably have not studied your history as much as many of you have, the actual "Declaration of Independence" may have been illegal, but at its heart is not "unethical". The Nuremberg Laws and "Jim Crow" type laws & enforcement may have been "legal", but they are certainly not "ethical".

Smoking or possessing marijiana is illegal (even though I don't do it) and you may be supporting organized crime if you purchase it, but does that automatically make it "unethical"?

I don't think it's unethical, but I am sure a lot of people do, including law enforcement, judges, etc. One could make the argument that any inhalant that clouds your judgment causes you to be a danger to others. I think introducing the term "ethical" throws everything out of the window, because then it all becomes about what you think is "acceptable" vs. what others think is "acceptable." It's like bringing religion into the conversation... nothing really to do with illegal vs. legal (necessarily). I mean heck we might as well make it a conversation about abortion then (and I said that for example, please let's not get into a discussion about abortion).

[tajmccall]

WELL I THINK INDIAN MASKOTS R RONGG!

No but seriously, here is a good read. Much better than the same argument, by the same players, only in a different forum.

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=sCac89zIJvMC&oi=fnd&pg=PR5&dq=Commercial+Counterfeiting-+Academic+Journals&ots=s7ZnfTfwin&sig=9K79qYI0tVP_mkdgRObwmuscUUE#v=onepage&q&f=false

Enjoy! Choose for yourself!

[BlueSky]

This has been a pretty refreshing thread all in all. Real discussion that has remained civil and well-considered.

My personal bottom line is the same as it was back when music sharing became popular. That was an odd case because the industry lagged technology. File sharing became possible and music was going online and totally digital but to get it "legally" one still had to buy a CD. Most people weren't trying to steal music; when given a "proper" (legal, moral, ethical, whatever you want to call it) and reasonably priced alternative, they used it. Look what iTunes et al have become. I at least don't know anybody who is still 'stealing' music through file sharing.

It may be wrong to blame the NFL (or airlines in that example) but the same logic applies. I believe most people can see the retailer's side and are willing to pay a reasonable markup. When things get unreasonable, that's when counterfeiters find a market. Look, I did airline pricing for years and I think most carriers use an idiotic model, one similar to car dealers: the goal is to get each and every customer to pay the absolute maximum he or she is willing to pay. That's yield management, and it's the reason for the wild disparity in fares on the same flight and for all those ridiculous rules everyone hates. It's a valid strategy - IF you will only have one transaction with that customer. Treating Screwing people like that in an industry dependent on repeat business is stupid.

People who knew I did pricing asked all the time, "How the hell can it cost me more to fly from Atlanta to Tampa than from Atlanta to L.A.?" Sure, there are reasons, which are complicated and take a long time to explain, but they don't involve cost. In pricing, we were not provided cost data and in fact were prohibited from seeing it. But cost + a reasonable markup is how most people believe prices should be set. So the real problem is that the pricing is counterintuitive, which of course is a long word that means it just doesn't make sense.

[JaxNoles]

grown men shouldnt wear jerseys anyway.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with that one.

[loogodude90]

grown men shouldnt wear jerseys anyway.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with that one.

Is there a reason for that? I don't understand. PArticularly on a website for people obsessed with logos, uniforms, and sports in general.

Not to mention some "grown men" who wear jerseys earn more in one year than you will probably see in your life time.

[JaxNoles]

grown men shouldnt wear jerseys anyway.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with that one.

Is there a reason for that? I don't understand. PArticularly on a website for people obsessed with logos, uniforms, and sports in general.

Not to mention some "grown men" who wear jerseys earn more in one year than you will probably see in your life time.

It's just my opinion. I just think jerseys are a little goofy for men to be wearing around, particularly football jerseys. And that goes for going to game or going to the store. IMO, there is no proper situation for the man jersey. And just because you make some money doesn't mean you can't look like a jackass.

[Frenchie]

grown men shouldnt wear jerseys anyway.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with that one.

Is there a reason for that? I don't understand. PArticularly on a website for people obsessed with logos, uniforms, and sports in general.

Not to mention some "grown men" who wear jerseys earn more in one year than you will probably see in your life time.

It's just my opinion. I just think jerseys are a little goofy for men to be wearing around, particularly football jerseys. And that goes for going to game or going to the store. IMO, there is no proper situation for the man jersey. And just because you make some money doesn't mean you can't look like a jackass.

But they are ok on women, right?

Tell me there is something sexier than a girl wearing an NFL Jersey....

[Discogod]

grown men shouldnt wear jerseys anyway.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with that one.

Is there a reason for that? I don't understand. PArticularly on a website for people obsessed with logos, uniforms, and sports in general.

Not to mention some "grown men" who wear jerseys earn more in one year than you will probably see in your life time.

It's just my opinion. I just think jerseys are a little goofy for men to be wearing around, particularly football jerseys. And that goes for going to game or going to the store. IMO, there is no proper situation for the man jersey. And just because you make some money doesn't mean you can't look like a jackass.

But they are ok on women, right?

Tell me there is something sexier than a girl wearing an NFL Jersey....

Yeah, a girl wearing a hockey jersey.

[BlueSky]

grown men shouldnt wear jerseys anyway.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with that one.

Is there a reason for that? I don't understand. PArticularly on a website for people obsessed with logos, uniforms, and sports in general.

Not to mention some "grown men" who wear jerseys earn more in one year than you will probably see in your life time.

It's just my opinion. I just think jerseys are a little goofy for men to be wearing around, particularly football jerseys. And that goes for going to game or going to the store. IMO, there is no proper situation for the man jersey. And just because you make some money doesn't mean you can't look like a jackass.

We all have opinions and these particular ones don't add much to the conversation. Not saying don't post 'em, but hey, I think guys wearing earrings and old-school hats (fedoras, etc.) and their ballcaps off-center is kind of goofy. Point being we could go round and round about it but a wise man once asked me why I was wasting even one second of my precious time on Earth worrying about other people's fashion choices. I didn't have an answer.

[JaxNoles]

grown men shouldnt wear jerseys anyway.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with that one.

Is there a reason for that? I don't understand. PArticularly on a website for people obsessed with logos, uniforms, and sports in general.

Not to mention some "grown men" who wear jerseys earn more in one year than you will probably see in your life time.

It's just my opinion. I just think jerseys are a little goofy for men to be wearing around, particularly football jerseys. And that goes for going to game or going to the store. IMO, there is no proper situation for the man jersey. And just because you make some money doesn't mean you can't look like a jackass.

But they are ok on women, right?

Tell me there is something sexier than a girl wearing an NFL Jersey....

Very much so, particularly baseball jerseys. Actually I love seeing a woman wearing anything with an MLB logo. I love a girl that loves baseball.

[raysox]

Why didn't anyone mention this yet?

LOL the URL even says yellow! Also, the Packers' tab says Green pay

[Darth Danielus]

grown men shouldnt wear jerseys anyway.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with that one.

Is there a reason for that? I don't understand. PArticularly on a website for people obsessed with logos, uniforms, and sports in general.

Not to mention some "grown men" who wear jerseys earn more in one year than you will probably see in your life time.

It's just my opinion. I just think jerseys are a little goofy for men to be wearing around, particularly football jerseys. And that goes for going to game or going to the store. IMO, there is no proper situation for the man jersey. And just because you make some money doesn't mean you can't look like a jackass.

But they are ok on women, right?

Tell me there is something sexier than a girl wearing an NFL Jersey....

Yeah, a girl wearing a hockey jersey.

+ 1,000,000

This is a great thread, with some solid reasoning on both sides... Ultimately, the stealing of intellectual property is indefensible, and it sucks that while most people get that its wrong to steal a car or a necklace, they have a harder time caring about protecting someone's ideas. Such a tough thing for some people to wrap their heads around unless they work in a field it applies to (as I do.) That said -- I'm glad those arguing the other side are bringing in valid points, and as has been mentioned, damned near everyone does something someone else would consider unethical....hell, I do several things I myself consider unethical all the time. I own no counterfeit sports merch (to my knowledge), but have used illegal software, purchased a fake rolex in manhattan for fun, stole satellite back in the day etc. etc.

[TornadoGTS]

Why didn't anyone mention this yet?

LOL the URL even says yellow! Also, the Packers' tab says Green pay

Yeah thats up there with the guy that was selling counterfeits at the Super Bowl the other year in Tampa, had ones with upside down names and a whole bunch of stuff that was just unbelievable, I remember seeing it on the local news, and just laughing my ass off.

[Lights Out]

I mean when it comes down to it, they are generating profit and success for themselves by exploiting masses of people, and doing so illegally.

Did you learn any American history at all in school? The Founding Fathers were all about freeing Americans from English tyranny and creating a small republican government that wouldn't act exactly like the king did. As far as profits were concerned, they wanted people to be able to keep the fruits of their labors, but they weren't interested in sucking every dollar out of Americans to make money like you're suggesting.

Granted, some of the Founding Fathers owned slaves which would fall under the exploiting people part of your statement, but that has nothing to do with their motives for breaking away from England.

[loogodude90]

I mean when it comes down to it, they are generating profit and success for themselves by exploiting masses of people, and doing so illegally.

Did you learn any American history at all in school? The Founding Fathers were all about freeing Americans from English tyranny and creating a small republican government that wouldn't act exactly like the king did. As far as profits were concerned, they wanted people to be able to keep the fruits of their labors, but they weren't interested in sucking every dollar out of Americans to make money like you're suggesting.

Granted, some of the Founding Fathers owned slaves which would fall under the exploiting people part of your statement, but that has nothing to do with their motives for breaking away from England.

For the 6th time, we (you and me specifically) aren't supposed to be arguing on the forums, as per moderators request. But, since you responded to something I posted (which wasn't directed at you at all), I'll respond.

"Did you learn any American history at all in school?"

Yes, I did.

"The Founding Fathers were all about freeing Americans from English tyranny and creating a small republican government that wouldn't act exactly like the king did."

...At the expense of behaving like tyrants towards the natives, on the natives' land.

"As far as profits were concerned, they wanted people to be able to keep the fruits of their labors,"

See: slavery.

"but that has nothing to do with their motives for breaking away from England."

I didn't say the exploitation had anything to do with motives. That doesn't change the fact that they did in fact exploit people.

Now my question for you... Did YOU learn anything in history class?

And here's another one - Weren't you supposed to take a break from this site because you were going to a mental hospital or something? I mean if your back already thats fine, and I hope you are doing better. (Sorry, just pre-empting because I have a very strong feeling this discussion is going to end with you claiming that I am insane. So figure I might as well get that out of the way.)

[hockey week]

as someone with a history degree, LogoDude and LightsOut both have points that are valid, and very easy to argue without a solid answer. End of argument, please.

my point in bringing up the founding fathers argument, is that breaking the law can be seen as a noble thing if the law-breaker firmly believes that they are supporting a greater good. The founding fathers committed treason in order to create this country. Is refusing to pay the markup for Reebok and whatever sports league and so purchasing an illegal counterfeit jersey an act of justifiable defiance? I'm not saying that it is, but I am certain that some, perhaps many, will.

I brought that up because of the large amount of people citing illegalities as the primary reason not to buy one, and they had little resistance to that argument. Sometimes, laws are wrong, or at least shouldn't exist. For anyone who wants to take up that idea and run with it, be my guest.

Also, for the sake of argument, to anybody (and I'm not citing anybody, I haven't even reread the thread to see if anybody acted this way) who sees themselves as a moral role model, following the letter of the law and refusing to break it, have you ever gone over a speed limit? run a yellow light and had it turn red in the intersection? Got a ticket? They're all laws on the books, and not very obscure ones. People who live in glass houses should never throw stones.

This is good argument and discussion. Let's keep it up

[Lights Out]

For the 6th time, we (you and me specifically) aren't supposed to be arguing on the forums, as per moderators request. But, since you responded to something I posted (which wasn't directed at you at all)

And for the 6th time, that's not true, we were asked to stop the mosque argument. Please stop bringing out that old line everytime your views are debated.

...At the expense of behaving like tyrants towards the natives, on the natives' land.

The damage to the Indians was done long, long before the Constitution - from the early fighting in Jamestown to King Philip's War in New England. Therefore the Founders aren't at fault for English/Indian tension.

See: slavery.

Not in the east.

WTF is your obsession with the mental hospital these days? I didn't go to one. You're very misinformed anyway if you think a mental hospital lets those in need of their help out after two days.

[Sodboy13]

I thought you left.