Alternate SPORTS! History Thread

[rams80]

3 hours ago, Discrimihater said:

A thought that just struck me: when the NBA and ABA merged, the Bulls basically forced it to include the Pacers instead of the Kentucky Colonels so they could get Artis Gilmore.  5+ years later, the Colts move to Indy.

The question I ask is...if the Colonels had survived the merger instead of the Pacers, are we talking about the Kentucky Colts today?

Mainly just a random question.

 

Only if Louisville is convinced to build a spec dome to support a football team.

[ColeJ]

What if: The Tennessee Oilers aren't scared off by Randy Moss's personal life, and take him with the 16th pick in the 1998 Draft?

 

How drastically does Moss on the Titans instead of Kevin Dyson affect the future of the franchise?

Is Moss's height, skill, and speed difference enough to get into the end zone at the end of Super Bowl XXXIV?

Does McNair/Moss become as dominant as Culpepper/Moss, or perhaps even more so?

What does it do for Moss's long-term career, and what does it do for the Titans fortunes overall, or even the legacy of Steve McNair?

 

That's why Moss's late-career short stint with the Titans was such a blast for me as a fan. I feel like it righted a wrong, only way too late to matter anymore.

 

 

Turtle Pilgrim Out.

[C-Squared]

One of my favorites that doesn't get the attention it deserves:

 

What if Jim Kelly joined the Ravens in 1998?

[DnBronc]

22 hours ago, Crabcake47 said:

More likely than not we're looking at the Phoenix Colts.  IIRC Irsay was basically choosing between Indy and Phoenix (and maybe a third city) to move the Colts to.

 

Irsay was linked to a Phoenix businessman in Jan. 1984, but flatly denied it:

 

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1984/01/20/Owner-Robert-Irsay-vehemently-denied-Friday-he-planned-to/8511443422800/

 

If Indy never gets accepted into the NBA, they probably don't build the Hoosier Dome. In this world, if a deal still doesn't happen between Irsay and Phoenix in Jan. 1984, maybe the urgency isn't there by March because there isn't a shiny new building in Indy, and the Colts end up getting seized by Eminent Domain.

 

 

[DnBronc]

On 4/12/2018 at 8:06 AM, C-Squared said:

One of my favorites that doesn't get the attention it deserves:

 

What if Jim Kelly joined the Ravens in 1998?

 

With Kelly back and in Marchibroda's offense, they end up 10-6 instead of 6-10 by scoring an extra TD a game. That gives them two wins against the Titans (they lost twice to them by a combined total of six points), one on opening day against Pittsburgh, and one against SD (they lost 14-13 to them).

 

That would have put them in the playoffs, and in a three-way tie-breaker with Buffalo and Miami. Baltimore would have had the four-seed by conference record (9-3 to 7-5). And, since Miami got the home field over Buffalo in reality, I would give them the five-seed, and Buffalo the six. The Bills would lose at Jacksonville, and the Ravens would beat Miami at home before losing at Denver.

 

Since the Ravens made the playoffs, though, Marchibroda doesn't get fired, and maybe Kelly stays on another year to be his QB. So, Brian Billick, who came to Baltimore in reality, maybe decides to take the Cleveland job since the Ravens one isn't open (he was in contention).

[Mac the Knife]

On 3/27/2018 at 2:38 PM, B-Rich said:

Re: USFL and the anti-trust suit...

 

I swear that a year or so ago we discussed this in a thread, but try as I  might despite my searches I cannot seem to find it.  Are threads or posts ever taken off?

I had some back-of-envelope calculations about relative NFL franchise value back then, infringement costs for New York and Chicago franchises, and good discussion with other posters about Einhorn (Chicago)  or Trump being "allowed in".  Then we talked about how it affected future expansion, etc.

 

Mac, I think my scenario was that what was awarded was not the FULL amount they were seeking, but a VERY considerable amount.

 

Since I can't find it, here is the gist as I remember it:

 

USFL wins suit and monetary damages; instead of payment, NFL works out deal with USFL to admit/merge some teams based upon "going" franchise value (Saints had just sold for $60 million in 1985).  In doing so, they follow the recommendations of a Stanford Research Institute study done before their 70s expansion, that said with population base and suburban growth, they'd do better to give a 3rd franchise to New York and a 2nd to Chicago and L.A. (1):

• Arizona Outlaws admitted as NFL franchise
• Baltimore Stars admitted as NFL franchise
• Memphis Showboats admitted as NFL franchise
• Jacksonville Bulls admitted as NFL franchise
• New Jersey Generals admitted as franchise after NFL swallows hard on Trump, but makes him pay infringement penalties to the Jets and Giants.
• Chicago ____ (they were planning on changing their changing name from the Blitz) admitted as franchise with Einhorn as owner, but he has to pay infringement fee to Bears.
• Birmingham Stallions, Orlando Renegades, and Tampa Bay Bandits each paid by NFL to dissolve. Tampa Bay clearly couldn't support 2 teams, B'Ham would be too small a market for the NFL, and league would be spread too thin in Florida with franchises in Miami, Tampa Bay, Jacksonville AND Orlando.

Each of the six teams are placed in an existing NFL division: Baltimore Stars in the AFC East, Chicago in the AFC central, Memphis in the AFC West, Arizona in the NFC West, Jacksonville in the NFC Central, and New Jersey in the NFC East.

 

Long term effects are Arizona, Jacksonville, Baltimore (and conceivably with Memphis, TN in NFL, also Nashville) prevented as relocation sites.  With less spots for relocation, maybe less stadium replacement in the '90s and more stability.  If Cardinals do move, maybe it's to... Charlotte, which then opens up St.Louis for the Rams, and leaving LA to the Raiders, who then move back to Oakland as they did in this world, leaving LA without a team for many years.

 

And, in the last couple of years, LA moves back to LA but the RAIDERS return as well as the new stadium's 2nd team and the Chargers stays put in San Diego.

There would be no indemnification payments made (at least, not in fact) based on the judgment, but otherwise I could see it save one exception:  Chicago.  I would see the NFL admitting Birmingham before Chicago, simply because George Halas was still alive and never, ever would've allowed it, having spent 40 years doing what he could to get the market to himself.

 

On 4/11/2018 at 9:57 PM, Crabcake47 said:

More likely than not we're looking at the Phoenix Colts.  IIRC Irsay was basically choosing between Indy and Phoenix (and maybe a third city) to move the Colts to.

 

This is correct.  Irsay was in serious negotiations with both Indianapolis and Phoenix.  He was merely further along in the process when he felt the state of Maryland had forced his hand through potential eminent domain action in late March, 1984.  Phoenix civic leaders were welcoming enough, but hadn't dotted the i's and crossed the t's to the degree Indianapolis had.  Irsay called Indianapolis mayor William Hudnut and basically said, "We'll work out all the remaining details later, but if you're amenable, we're coming to Indianapolis... and right now."

 

 

And now, one that came to me this afternoon:

Vince Lombardi, as we all know, died of colon cancer at the age of 57 in September, 1970, having led the Green Bay Packers to five NFL championships and at the time of his death recently taken a similar role, plus that of part-owner, in Washington.  His legacy engraved into the history of the league, right down to the championship trophy which upon his death was named for him.

 

But what if Lombardi had lived 10 more years?

 

We presume that had he not fallen ill he would have continued with Washington, coaching at least probably until the mid-1970's and staying on beyond that in a management, ownership or more emeritus position.  But what would the ramifications of those ten years be?  Does he resuscitate Washington, turning them into the type of powerhouse the Packers had been?  Is his image diminished if they don't reach that level of success?  Does the trophy that bares his name instead be named for someone else, and does it carry the same luster for those who earn it?

[goalieboy82]

2 hours ago, Mac the Knife said:

There would be no indemnification payments made (at least, not in fact) based on the judgment, but otherwise I could see it save one exception:  Chicago.  I would see the NFL admitting Birmingham before Chicago, simply because George Halas was still alive and never, ever would've allowed it, having spent 40 years doing what he could to get the market to himself.

 

 

This is correct.  Irsay was in serious negotiations with both Indianapolis and Phoenix.  He was merely further along in the process when he felt the state of Maryland had forced his hand through potential eminent domain action in late March, 1984.  Phoenix civic leaders were welcoming enough, but hadn't dotted the i's and crossed the t's to the degree Indianapolis had.  Irsay called Indianapolis mayor William Hudnut and basically said, "We'll work out all the remaining details later, but if you're amenable, we're coming to Indianapolis... and right now."

 

 

And now, one that came to me this afternoon:

Vince Lombardi, as we all know, died of colon cancer at the age of 57 in September, 1970, having led the Green Bay Packers to five NFL championships and at the time of his death recently taken a similar role, plus that of part-owner, in Washington.  His legacy engraved into the history of the league, right down to the championship trophy which upon his death was named for him.

 

But what if Lombardi had lived 10 more years?

 

We presume that had he not fallen ill he would have continued with Washington, coaching at least probably until the mid-1970's and staying on beyond that in a management, ownership or more emeritus position.  But what would the ramifications of those ten years be?  Does he resuscitate Washington, turning them into the type of powerhouse the Packers had been?  Is his image diminished if they don't reach that level of success?  Does the trophy that bares his name instead be named for someone else, and does it carry the same luster for those who earn it?

he might have won Super Bowl 7 (and maybe got to one other).

also was thinking what if the 1972 Miami Dolphins lost to Pittsburgh Steelers in the AFC Championship game?  how would a Redskins vs Steelers Super Bowl turn out (not with Vince as coach for the Redskins)

[tigers]

The NFL absorbed the XFL's Birmingham Bolts, Los Angeles Xtreme (was no team in LA), Las Vegas Outlaws, Memphis Maniax .

And what would of become of.

Chicago Enforcers - Columbus?

 NY/NJ Hitmen - become NY Hitmen and move to MCU Park or another site within the NY area, not NJ

Orlando Rage??

San Francisco - Sacremento?

[DnBronc]

14 hours ago, goalieboy82 said:

also was thinking what if the 1972 Miami Dolphins lost to Pittsburgh Steelers in the AFC Championship game?  how would a Redskins vs Steelers Super Bowl turn out (not with Vince as coach for the Redskins)

 

Pittsburgh defeats Washington in SB VII (with Franco Harris as the MVP with over 100 yards rushing). They still go on to win four SB's, but ring #2 doesn't come until 1975 (SB X) against the Cowboys.

 

In 1973, the motivated Fins bounce back and take the SB. Then, in 74, the Raiders pull out an AFC Title win over a tad less motivated Steeler team.

[goalieboy82]

3 hours ago, DnBronc said:

 

Pittsburgh defeats Washington in SB VII (with Franco Harris as the MVP with over 100 yards rushing). They still go on to win four SB's, but ring #2 doesn't come until 1975 (SB X) against the Cowboys.

 

In 1973, the motivated Fins bounce back and take the SB. Then, in 74, the Raiders pull out an AFC Title win over a tad less motivated Steeler team.

that seems about right.  now what if the Redskins was coached by Vince Lombardi?  

[GrayJ12]

On ‎4‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 8:21 PM, Discrimihater said:

A thought that just struck me: when the NBA and ABA merged, the Bulls basically forced it to include the Pacers instead of the Kentucky Colonels so they could get Artis Gilmore.  5+ years later, the Colts move to Indy.

The question I ask is...if the Colonels had survived the merger instead of the Pacers, are we talking about the Kentucky Colts today?

Mainly just a random question.

I honestly think that the Colts would move to Phoenix and Cards would had moved to Indy because they had already built the Hoosier Dome. For Louisville, I have a strong gut feeling that either the Rams or an expansion team would be there.

 

As for basketball, I'm thinking Indy would get a team in the '88 expansion or even the Kings in '85.

[DnBronc]

On 4/15/2018 at 3:17 PM, goalieboy82 said:

that seems about right.  now what if the Redskins was coached by Vince Lombardi?  

 

I am not sure if Lombardi would have gotten that team to the SB by 72. A lot of the players on that Redskin team were added by George Allen, especially on defense.

 

Also, while Lombardi was a master motivator, he wasn't a good drafter of talent when he was in Green Bay.

 

 

 

[Mac the Knife]

The Pittsburgh Steelers had the 21st overall selection in the famed 1983 NFL Draft, a round (not a draft - a round) from which six (thus far) Pro Football Hall of Famers were selected.

 

At the time, the Steelers were much as they are now - seeing a star quarterback in the twilight of his career.  While then as now the Steelers never traded up in the first round to grab a particular player, this would have been the one to do it, with not one but three quarterbacks with local ties - Todd Blackledge (who'd played at Penn State), Jim Kelly (whose family hailed from nearby East Brady) and Dan Marino (who'd played at Pitt) seen as sure-fire prospects.

 

By the Steelers 21st pick Blackledge and Kelly, along with some guys named John Elway and Tony Eason, were gone - but Marino remarkably remained on the board.  The Steelers could have transitioned from Terry Bradshaw directly to Dan Marino, giving Pittsburgh fans a very real prospect of repeating their run of winning four Super Bowls in six years during the 1980's.

 

But as we know from history, the Steelers passed on Marino, instead drafting Texas Tech nose tackle Gabe Rivera.  Rivera, dubbed "Senor Sack," was seen to be the anchor behind a rebuild of the famed "Steel Curtain" defense, which also was showing signs of age and impending retirement.  Steeler fans of the time, upon hearing Rivera's name called by Pete Rozelle, reacted with all the excitement that Jets fans would a few moments later when they heard Rozelle say "Quarterback... Ken O'Brien."

 

Marino would be drafted next-to-last in that first round, by the Miami Dolphins.  Like the Steelers, they felt they had no real need for a quarterback at the time either, having just appeared in Super Bowl XVII with the immortal David Woodley.  But unlike the Steelers, they realized they couldn't pass a player of Marino's potential talent up.  While the Dolphins would reach the Super Bowl only once during Marino's career, the team had solidified its quarterback position for the bulk of the next 17 seasons, with a passer who would throw for what in 1983 would be seen as an astonishing 61,361 yards on his way to Canton.

 

Gabe Rivera, meanwhile, would play six games in the National Football League before getting behind the wheel of a car, legally intoxicated, crossing the center line and running into a woman traveling in the opposite direction.  Fortunately the woman would be unhurt, but Rivera would be paralyzed for life; a life which came to an end earlier this week.

 

The Steeler teams of the early 1980's had not fallen so far from their glory days that the likes of a Marino wouldn't have returned them to Super Bowl contention on a consistent basis.  Terry Bradshaw, whom the Steelers felt comfortable enough with to pass on Marino, would blow out his elbow late in that 1983 season and never play again, something that assuredly would've given Marino the starting job starting in 1984.  From that Draft Day in 1983 to this, I've wondered "What if the Steelers had taken Marino?"  Perhaps Marino brings another bulk of championship hardware to Pittsburgh.  But also I now wonder if perhaps Gabe Rivera's alive and ambulatory today, having played a full career elsewhere.  All because the fickle finger of fate - in this case Chuck Noll wanting to focus on rebuilding team defense no matter who was available - had the Steelers choose Rivera rather than Marino.

[Luigi74]

I think the Steelers make it to and win Super Bowl XIX and then lose a close one to the Bears in Super Bowl XX. After that I think Marino has a similar career to the one he had in Miami and never makes it back to the big game, with Marino the Steelers don't go 6-10 in 1986 so no Rod Woodson and without him those 90's teams aren't as good on the other side of the ball.

 

One thing that needs to be factored in is the pressure that would have been on Dan Marino if he played for the Steelers, the local press was really vicious towards him when he had a so so senior season at Pitt and I can't imagine how bad it would be if he had a similar season with the Steelers. 

 

On the Steelers beating the 49ers in SBXIX, remember the only loss the 49ers had that year was against the Steelers and Chuck Noll's defenses had always been able to shut down the Paul Brown/Bill Walsh "West Coast" offense.

[Viola73]

35 minutes ago, ltp74 said:

I think the Steelers make it to and win Super Bowl XIX and then lose a close one to the Bears in Super Bowl XX. After that I think Marino has a similar career to the one he had in Miami and never makes it back to the big game, with Marino the Steelers don't go 6-10 in 1986 so no Rod Woodson and without him those 90's teams aren't as good on the other side of the ball.

 

One thing that needs to be factored in is the pressure that would have been on Dan Marino if he played for the Steelers, the local press was really vicious towards him when he had a so so senior season at Pitt and I can't imagine how bad it would be if he had a similar season with the Steelers. 

 

On the Steelers beating the 49ers in SBXIX, remember the only loss the 49ers had that year was against the Steelers and Chuck Noll's defenses had always been able to shut down the Paul Brown/Bill Walsh "West Coast" offense.

Had the Steelers taken Marino, I would think they make it back to the Super Bowl a few times, like you said....winning them? Who knows, but one can speculate that had Marino played for the Steelers like he did with the Dolphins the possibilities are  somewhat grandiose to the average Steelers fan.

And don't forget that the Steelers still had a good scouting team that could find those players to make it back to the playoffs year after year. But with Marino in the mix the names would be different but the results probably even better.

Also, I think the media would have lightened up a bit on Marino once he starting winning, but who knows?

[sc49erfan15]

Uh, you're missing the real travesty here.

 

If Marino goes to the Steelers, we never get the lines "Dan Marino should die of gonorrhea and rot in hell" and/or "laces out, Dan!"

[DnBronc]

For this entry, I will discuss what may have happened to Miami.

 

Shula holds on to Woodley for two more years, but by 1984, he implodes due to alcohol abuse. He was a ticking time bomb waiting to happen. He really didn't enjoy playing in front of large crowds (in fact, it scared him to death), and he drank to get over his fears (there is an ESPN link at this link):

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/2b14hf/the_sad_case_of_david_woodley_you_might_want_to/

 

With no good replacement for Woodley (for some reason, I have the Fins missing out on guys like Esiason, Randall Cunningham, and Jim Everett), the Dolphins are one of the worst teams in the NFL by 1987 and 88, and Shula is fired at the end of the 1988 season.

[MadmanLA]

9 hours ago, sc49erfan15 said:

Uh, you're missing the real travesty here.

 

If Marino goes to the Steelers, we never get the lines "Dan Marino should die of gonorrhea and rot in hell" and/or "laces out, Dan!"

 

LOL

 

I think the other real travesty here, and it touches on the point that Mac made earlier on...the Steelers, almost thirty years earlier, had another hometown quarterback on their hands, and cut him in training camp.  He only went on to be one of the greatest QBs in the history of the NFL--his name was John Constantine Unitas.  You could have had the Unitas-Bradshaw-Marino transition happen pretty smoothly without missing a beat; the Steeler dynasty could have perhaps started 15 years before it actually did. 

 

Perhaps even more egregious was (among the Steelers' many bonehead personnel moves pre-Chuck Noll) was them trading the third overall pick in the 1965 draft to the Bears, and with that Papa Bear Halas picked fellow U. of Illinois alum Dick Butkus (the Bears also selected Gale Sayers right behind at #4).  If Butkus had played in Pittsburgh instead of Chicago, especially had the Steelers went ahead and picked Joe Greene away, not only would his career would lasted a few years longer (only played nine seasons, and didn't sniff a playoff game not once), he would have won a Super Bowl ring or two. 

[DnBronc]

8 hours ago, MadmanLA said:

 

LOL

 

I think the other real travesty here, and it touches on the point that Mac made earlier on...the Steelers, almost thirty years earlier, had another hometown quarterback on their hands, and cut him in training camp.  He only went on to be one of the greatest QBs in the history of the NFL--his name was John Constantine Unitas.  You could have had the Unitas-Bradshaw-Marino transition happen pretty smoothly without missing a beat; the Steeler dynasty could have perhaps started 15 years before it actually did. 

 

Perhaps even more egregious was (among the Steelers' many bonehead personnel moves pre-Chuck Noll) was them trading the third overall pick in the 1965 to the Bears, and with that Papa Bear Halas picked fellow U. of Illinois alum Dick Butkus (the Bears also selected Gale Sayers right behind at #4).  If Butkus had played in Pittsburgh instead of Chicago, especially had the Steelers went ahead and picked Joe Greene away, not only would his career would lasted a few years longer (only played nine seasons, and didn't sniff a playoff game not once), he would have won a Super Bowl ring or two. 

 

Good point about Butkus. Another scary point: In 1974, the Steelers got Jack Lambert. If Butkus can play by then, maybe him and Lambert are on the field together (I think that some people looked at Jack as an OLB when he came out) for a year or so. Not a pleasant thought for offenses.

 

Back to Miami without Marino. In reality, they were 5-11 in 1988 with Marino. Without him, they probably go 2-14, and get the #1 overall pick.

 

There is a certain local coach who is getting ready to leave the local college football team. In reality, he goes to Dallas. However, with the #1 overall pick, and a chance to stay in his beloved Miami, we may have never seen the Jones-Johnson pairing.

[Luigi74]

13 hours ago, MadmanLA said:

 

LOL

 

I think the other real travesty here, and it touches on the point that Mac made earlier on...the Steelers, almost thirty years earlier, had another hometown quarterback on their hands, and cut him in training camp.  He only went on to be one of the greatest QBs in the history of the NFL--his name was John Constantine Unitas.  You could have had the Unitas-Bradshaw-Marino transition happen pretty smoothly without missing a beat; the Steeler dynasty could have perhaps started 15 years before it actually did. 

 

Perhaps even more egregious was (among the Steelers' many bonehead personnel moves pre-Chuck Noll) was them trading the third overall pick in the 1965 draft to the Bears, and with that Papa Bear Halas picked fellow U. of Illinois alum Dick Butkus (the Bears also selected Gale Sayers right behind at #4).  If Butkus had played in Pittsburgh instead of Chicago, especially had the Steelers went ahead and picked Joe Greene away, not only would his career would lasted a few years longer (only played nine seasons, and didn't sniff a playoff game not once), he would have won a Super Bowl ring or two. 

A Unitas-Bradshaw-Marino transition would have never happened in that scenario, if the Steelers have Unitas in 1969 they don't go 1-13 and get the #1 pick in the draft which they used to select Bradshaw. 

 

The trade that gave the Bears the third pick in the 1965 Draft was more of an economic move than a bonehead move, Art Rooney didn't have the cash to compete in the war with the AFL for draft picks, that's why they traded out of the first round in 1961, 1963, and 1965. If the Steelers keep the 1965 pick Butkus is most likely a Bronco.