Alternate SPORTS! History Thread

[Topherlee2]

Here's a couple what-ifs from my neck of the woods:

1.) What if in Super Bowl 1 the Chiefs upset the Packers, what would the impact be later on? (Note: I know Green Bay was a far better team than my Chiefs, I'll admit it but hey that's why we have this topic, right?)

2.) What if the Royals beat the Yankees in the ALCS from 1976 to 1978? Would the Royals win more World Series? Could they have been a dynasty?

[chcarlson23]

I was just thinking about this the other day. The Wild lost to the Blues 4-2, but on Minnesota's second goal, to make it 3-2 Blues, Dumba tapped in a pass to score and Parise was right behind him and "Would" have tapped it in if Dumba missed... A few moments later Vanek tipped a shot that went wide by an inch... And I thought about. What if Dumba missed? Parise SHOULD have tapped it in. But what if Parise missed too? Would Vanek scored? And then Pominville later? And Coyle again all in regulation??? It's very weird to think about... 

[Turtle Pilgrim]

Let's suppose that instead of drafting Larry Fitzgerald in the 2004 draft, that the Cardinals took Philip Rivers, thereby eliminating the need for them to take a QB named Matt Leinart later on?  Furthermore, let's suppose that they built around Rivers and Boldin, on the offensive side, and drafted well on the defensive side as well.  Perhaps grabbing someone like Darren Sproles, for instance, in 2005, and someone like Devin Hester a year later, to go with their already established core players, by the time the 2007 NFL season began.  How might they have fared, with good coaching from Whisenhunt, for instance, once Rivers took over for Warner as the starting quarterback?  Just wondering, that's all.  I'd like to see what you might think of such a scenario as just proposed here, folks.  Turtle Pilgrim out.

 

P.S.  What if the Cardinals had drafted Walter Payton the year that he came into the draft, and also drafted well since then, and did so well that they never left St. Louis, thanks to the NFL Cardinals being bought by the owners of the baseball Cardinals, while perhaps winning at least one Super Bowl led by players like Neil Lomax and Walter Payton, for example, with Bill Bidwill no longer willing or able to handle owning the NFL Cardinals?  Would their St. Louis future perhaps be better, especially with players like Rivers and Boldin playing for them in time?  Turtle Pilgrim out.

 

[rams80]

22 minutes ago, Turtle Pilgrim said:

Let's suppose that instead of drafting Larry Fitzgerald in the 2004 draft, that the Cardinals took Philip Rivers, thereby eliminating the need for them to take a QB named Matt Leinart later on?  Furthermore, let's suppose that they built around Rivers and Boldin, on the offensive side, and drafted well on the defensive side as well.  Perhaps grabbing someone like Darren Sproles, for instance, in 2005, and someone like Devin Hester a year later, to go with their already established core players, by the time the 2007 NFL season began.  How might they have fared, with good coaching from Whisenhunt, for instance, once Rivers took over for Warner as the starting quarterback?  Just wondering, that's all.  I'd like to see what you might think of such a scenario as just proposed here, folks.  Turtle Pilgrim out.

 

Alien Space Bats.  The Cardinals were committed to seeing what Josh McCown could do full time going into 2004.

 

22 minutes ago, Turtle Pilgrim said:

 

P.S.  What if the Cardinals had drafted Walter Payton the year that he came into the draft, and also drafted well since then, and did so well that they never left St. Louis, thanks to the NFL Cardinals being bought by the owners of the baseball Cardinals, while perhaps winning at least one Super Bowl led by players like Neil Lomax and Walter Payton, for example, with Bill Bidwill no longer willing or able to handle owning the NFL Cardinals?  Would their St. Louis future perhaps be better, especially with players like Rivers and Boldin playing for them in time?  Turtle Pilgrim out.

 

 

Alien Space Bats with an LSD addiction.  I can't even conceive of a chain of events that involved the Bidwells selling to Busch.

[Turtle Pilgrim]

Alien Space Bats?  I do know that Bidwill wasn't well liked by the end of the Cardinals' time in St. Louis.  But what if he had some sort of mental breakdown or something happened to either make him and/or his family want to sell the team or need to sell the team, due to finances and/or success of the other Cardinals on the field, or something, and in the interest of civic duty and all, Anheuser-Busch offered to buy the football Cardinals like they had the baseball Cardinals in the 1950's?

 

You mentioned Josh McCown.  What if the Cardinals had drafted Ed Reed in the first round of the 2002 draft, Clinton Portis in the second, Westbrook in the third, Zastudil had still been available in the fourth, and used the rest of their picks to draft linemen on both sides of the ball, or DBs?  While someone else drafted McCown who needed a QB and soon?  Just wondering, that's all.  How would things likely be with the Cardinals if they were also able to grab Boldin, Rivers, and others in the course of time?  Would Boldin have ever wanted to leave Arizona or St. Louis, as the case might be, wherever the Cardinals then were located, perhaps?  Turtle Pilgrim out.

 

P.S.  It seems that Payton was already gone in 1975 before the Cards could have drafted him.  But what if the Cardinals had either traded up to get him or he eventually left Chicago due to free agency or being traded or something?  And what if the Cards had later been able to pick him up, supposing they couldn't have somehow been able to draft him in the first place in the 1975 draft?  Turtle Pilgrim out.

 

[DnBronc]

11 hours ago, Turtle Pilgrim said:

Let's suppose that instead of drafting Larry Fitzgerald in the 2004 draft, that the Cardinals took Philip Rivers, thereby eliminating the need for them to take a QB named Matt Leinart later on? 

 

I have a WI right along these lines: Nate Poole not catching the game winning TD in the 2003 season finale against the Vikings. This has widespread ramifications:

 

1. Vikings go to the playoffs instead of Green Bay and play Seattle (they beat them earlier at home handily). I can see Minnesota beating them again, sending them to Philly. If Minnesota wins that one (it wouldn't have been an upset if they did) and makes a run to the NFC Title Game (before losing at Carolina), maybe that changes things somewhat to where Moss doesn't leave after 2005 (and doesn't end up in NE in 2007), and Culpepper doesn't get hurt as bad (and stays after 05 as well).

 

2. The Cards would have had the #1 overall pick. If they take Eli, and he goes there, I can see the Chargers and Giants ending up somehow with Rivers and Roethlisberger. Guess who's hurt big time? The Steelers. They don't win in 05 without Big Ben. They end up taking Shawn Andrews in Round 1 (they had their eyes on him), and they end up starting Brian St. Pierre when Maddox gets hurt (Walter Football had him as Pittsburgh's QB of the future in 2003). After he flops, and they go 6-10, Pittsburgh drafts A-Rod in 2005. He wasn't as plug and play as Ben, though, so Pittsburgh doesn't go to the 2005 playoffs, and Cowher retires one year earlier.

 

3. The Chiefs end up making the playoffs in 05 as the six-seed instead. They go to Cincy and lose. Cincy goes to Denver, and NE goes to Indy. The Broncos beat the Bengals on Saturday night, and the Colts (who had a bye and were probably not as mentally sharp after what happened to Dungy's son) end up losing to the Pats in the playoffs for the third straight year. In the AFC Title Game, Pats lose at Denver, and the Broncos beat Seattle for the Super Bowl.

 

4. Jake Plummer retires after the SB win. As a result, Shanny brings in Jeff Garcia on a one-year deal, and they draft Jay Cutler. Garcia leads them to the playoffs (and first-round exit) while Cutler gets the ball the next year. However, Shanny's inability to put together a defense and Cutler's lack of passion doom the team, and by Jan. 2011, Bowlen asks Shanahan to resign (and Elway is hired).

[Turtle Pilgrim]

1 minute ago, DnBronc said:

 

I have a WI right along these lines: Nate Poole not catching the game winning TD in the 2003 season finale against the Vikings. This has widespread ramifications:

 

1. Vikings go to the playoffs instead of Green Bay and play Seattle (they beat them earlier at home handily). I can see Minnesota beating them again, sending them to Philly. If Minnesota wins that one (it wouldn't have been an upset if they did) and makes a run to the NFC Title Game (before losing at Carolina), maybe that changes things somewhat to where Moss doesn't leave after 2005 (and doesn't end up in NE in 2007), and Culpepper doesn't get hurt as bad (and stays after 05 as well).

 

2. The Cards would have had the #1 overall pick. If they take Eli, and he goes there, I can see the Chargers and Giants ending up somehow with Rivers and Roethlisberger. Guess who's hurt big time? The Steelers. They don't win in 05 without Big Ben. They end up taking Shawn Andrews in Round 1 (they had their eyes on him), and they end up starting Brian St. Pierre when Maddox gets hurt (Walter Football had him as Pittsburgh's QB of the future in 2003). After he flops, and they go 6-10, Pittsburgh drafts A-Rod in 2005. He wasn't as plug and play as Ben, though, so Pittsburgh doesn't go to the 2005 playoffs, and Cowher retires one year earlier.

 

3. The Chiefs end up making the playoffs in 05 as the six-seed instead. They go to Cincy and lose. Cincy goes to Denver, and NE goes to Indy. The Broncos beat the Bengals on Saturday night, and the Colts (who had a bye and were probably not as mentally sharp after what happened to Dungy's son) end up losing to the Pats in the playoffs for the third straight year. In the AFC Title Game, Pats lose at Denver, and the Broncos beat Seattle for the Super Bowl.

 

4. Jake Plummer retires after the SB win. As a result, Shanny brings in Jeff Garcia on a one-year deal, and they draft Jay Cutler. Garcia leads them to the playoffs (and first-round exit) while Cutler gets the ball the next year. However, Shanny's inability to put together a defense and Cutler's lack of passion doom the team, and by Jan. 2011, Bowlen asks Shanahan to resign (and Elway is hired).

They took Fitzgerald instead of Rivers who I was hoping for, and while Fitzgerald's had a great career, I'd have to admit, I'd still have to say I think Rivers would have been a better QB for them than Leinart ever was, if the Cards had drafted him when they still could have, then built around him and Boldin.  I think they would have developed a good rapport with each other, both being originally from the South, and I think they could have been a tandem at least on par with Irvin and Aikman or Rice with either Young or Montana, much like Rivers has been with receivers like Antonio Gates, to name just a few.  While I think Rivers is HoF material, or potentially so, I think he would have had a better career to this point in the Cardinals system, even given Bidwill's earlier cheapskate tendencies, et cetera.  Unfortunately, Rivers is not likely to leave SD/LA anytime soon, if ever, due to his contract as it now stands and his age, et cetera.

 

Until later, then, I'll close this.  Turtle Pilgrim out.

 

[Sykotyk]

What if the Steelers never hired Chuck Noll?

 

Part of the mystique about the Steelers is that they've had three coaches in x number of years. But, a large part of that was that with Noll, they finally found a good coach after years of ineptness. So, what if they hadn't hired him. What if it was status quo? The personnel and front office basically the same, but a case where they didn't find a coach to last 20+ years. Would they still have won some/all of their 70s Super Bowls? Without the longevity of Noll, would they have attracted Cowher to the job if he weren't replacing a legend? Would their insistence on sticking with Cowher and now Tomlin been as strong if they were like most teams cycling through coaches every 4 or 5 years after missing out on success?

 

Even a good coach today, a few years after a Super Bowl title can be shown the door for 'losing' the team. Cowher, for as long as he coached, made two Super Bowls, winning one. Tomlin made two, one on the heels of becoming coach they won, and against Green Bay that they lost. They've had some incredibly DUMB coaching decisions that most teams would use as Exhibit A when firing them, but the "Steeler Way" keeps them from wanting to hire a new coach. Would they stick by their coaches as ardently as they do if they had never set a precedent with Noll?

[DnBronc]

3 hours ago, Sykotyk said:

What if the Steelers never hired Chuck Noll?

 

Part of the mystique about the Steelers is that they've had three coaches in x number of years. But, a large part of that was that with Noll, they finally found a good coach after years of ineptness. So, what if they hadn't hired him. What if it was status quo? The personnel and front office basically the same, but a case where they didn't find a coach to last 20+ years. Would they still have won some/all of their 70s Super Bowls? Without the longevity of Noll, would they have attracted Cowher to the job if he weren't replacing a legend? Would their insistence on sticking with Cowher and now Tomlin been as strong if they were like most teams cycling through coaches every 4 or 5 years after missing out on success?

 

Even a good coach today, a few years after a Super Bowl title can be shown the door for 'losing' the team. Cowher, for as long as he coached, made two Super Bowls, winning one. Tomlin made two, one on the heels of becoming coach they won, and against Green Bay that they lost. They've had some incredibly DUMB coaching decisions that most teams would use as Exhibit A when firing them, but the "Steeler Way" keeps them from wanting to hire a new coach. Would they stick by their coaches as ardently as they do if they had never set a precedent with Noll?

 

I don't think they win four SB's without Noll. However, after reading an excerpt from the book The Super 70's by Tom Danyluk (he interviewed several people who made the NFL in the 70's. Art Rooney, Jr. was one of them), it appears that the Steelers were through with the quick fix like they tried to do before (trading draft picks away). They were going to be patient and build through the draft no matter what. They had a super scout (Bill Nunn) that was able to find talent in the black colleges.

[DnBronc]

Quote

1. What if the NBA had added the Spirits of St. Louis and Utah Stars as part of the ABA/NBA merger?

 

Earlier in this thread, someone brought up the fact that these two teams were going to merge, with the team being based in Utah (and being called the Rockies). What if the ABA got one more season, and this team played without folding?

 

In 1977, the Pacers were having financial difficulties, and needed a telethon to save the team. If that falls through, maybe the Rockies merge into the NBA instead of the Pacers.

 

With Utah in the NBA a few years earlier, where do the NO Jazz end up (if anywhere. I think the owner's wife was from Utah).

 

Quote

2. What if the NBA sticks to their original plan and adds only two teams (Orlando and Minnesota) instead of four (Miami and Charlotte) in the 1988 expansion?

 

Or, better yet, what if the NBA doesn't expand until around 1993 or 94? Maybe they have a three-team expansion (to Toronto, Charlotte, and Miami) to bring the total to 26. I think it would have made more sense to combine their two expansions in the late-80's and 95-96 into one, and adding less teams. The NBA shouldn't have gone over 26 teams.

 

Quote

 

Two what-ifs from the last day of the 1995 season:

1. What if Yancey Thigpen doesn't drop a winning TD in Lambeau?

2. What if the Falcons don't beat the 49ers?

That would have given Detroit the NFC Central title, San Francisco the #1 seed, and made the NFC Wild-Card Games Green Bay-Philly and Chicago-Detroit?

 

 

As I said before in this thread, I think that the Eagles and Lions win the WC games. However, what if the Lions beat Dallas? That wasn't a great Cowboy team that year, and Scott Mitchell played well the year before in Texas Stadium on MNF. If they got by them, they would have faced a SF team that was a little weaker as well (I think that Detroit beat them in MNF that year at home).

 

If the 1995 Lions get to (or win) the Super Bowl, does Barry Sanders still retire in 1999?

[KittSmith_95]

Time for some Raptor based What-If's: 

 

1. What if the Raptors had chosen to hold onto Chauncey Billups & not trade him away? 

 

2. What if T-Mac had stayed with the Raptors instead of darting for Orlando? 

 

3. What if Vince Carter never attended his graduation on the morning of game seven?

 

4. What if the Raptors chose Aldridge over Bargnani? 

 

5. What if we never traded for Rudy Gay? 

 

 

 

 

[DnBronc]

On 3/26/2017 at 6:05 AM, KittSmith_95 said:

1. What if the Raptors had chosen to hold onto Chauncey Billups & not trade him away? 

 

2. What if T-Mac had stayed with the Raptors instead of darting for Orlando? 

 

A team with Billups, T-Mac, and Air Canada would have had a good shot to make the 01 Finals (if it gels properly) and give the Lakers a run for their money.

[Unocal]

What if the 1994 Canucks don't win any of those overtime games against Calgary in the playoffs en route to rallying from 3-1 down?

 

Who plays the NY Rangers in the Cup Finals?

 

The 2nd round would have been Calgary/San Jose and Toronto/Dallas, for the record (assuming the Sharks/Red Wings upset still happens)

[boonevol]

College football

 

What if Joe Paterno's "Eastern football

 league" (Penn St, Pitt, Syracuse, Temple,Rutgers, BC, WVU) comes to fruition?

 

What if the old Metro basketball conference, (Louisville, Fla St, S. Carolina, Memphis St, Cincinnati, Tulane, among others) had added football?

[2001mark]

On 26/03/2017 at 6:05 AM, KittSmith_95 said:

Time for some Raptor based What-If's: 

 

1. What if the Raptors had chosen to hold onto Chauncey Billups & not trade him away? 

 

2. What if T-Mac had stayed with the Raptors instead of darting for Orlando? 

 

3. What if Vince Carter never attended his graduation on the morning of game seven?

 

4. What if the Raptors chose Aldridge over Bargnani? 

 

5. What if we never traded for Rudy Gay? 

1. Trading for the Bender pick which they dealt for Antonio Davis - the Vince Carter era might've been all for show without the likes of Davis to prop up some success.

2. Kobe Bryant has said on record (SLAM) the Raptors would have certainly won championships -plural-.  McGrady was told this on Canadian tv (TSN) & was speechless.   They certainly could've won more games per season, & attracted guys they thought could help put them over.

3. He would've regretted it in the moment & possibly had a poor game in Philly.  This is hindsight from a missed shot, not a blowout.

4. A wash. Winning the lottery for one of the most vanilla drafts ever was bad luck.

5. Meh.  He was a decent numbers guy when the team was rudderless.  Trading him away is a top 10 franchise moment.

[DnBronc]

3 hours ago, boonevol said:

What if Joe Paterno's "Eastern football

 league" (Penn St, Pitt, Syracuse, Temple,Rutgers, BC, WVU) comes to fruition?

 

 

Even if that takes place, there are some people who think that Nambla State would have went to the Big 10 anyway (or the ACC). If they did, it probably would have been further down the road. Also, I wonder what that would have meant for the Atlantic-10 and the Big East, with BC, Syracuse, Temple, Rutgers, and WVU leaving them to join this all-sports league (Pitt didn't join the Big East until after PSU was refused). Maybe Big East commish Dave Gavitt would have had to approach the A-10 about a merger or something.

 

3 hours ago, boonevol said:

 

What if the old Metro basketball conference, (Louisville, Fla St, S. Carolina, Memphis St, Cincinnati, Tulane, among others) had added football?

 

In 1990, the Metro was thinking of becoming a 16-team super league (16 for football, 12 for both):

 

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1990-07-18/sports/9007180535_1_super-metro-metro-schools-metro-plans

 

However, the SEC decided to pursue Fla. State, and when the ACC got them, and the SEC got South Carolina, the thing died.

 

I also heard that Penn State was also a part of the original plan, but they went to the Big 10. However, I wonder what would have happened if they came up with this idea in 1987 instead of 1990. Maybe they would have gotten PSU, Fla. State, and Miami. Who knows?

[FinsUp1214]

A fun one I got to thinking of when I came across a video of Bob Uecker's Frick Award speech today: What if he was a talented enough player to not only have a full career, but actually make the Hall of Fame? Does he still become the Brewers broadcaster, or someone else's? Does he get into broadcasting at all?

 

It may be ridiculous haha, but I had fun thinking of an alternate history involving my best guess. There's some obvious crazy liberties taken because this hinges on a Uecker that was great enough to make the Hall of Fame as a player, not the Uecker we know that that was legendarily bad. If you're in for a read, here you go. 

 

 

 

 

 

Let's say for just for kicks that this alternative Uecker makes the majors much earlier as a very promising catching prospect (he didn't really make it till he was 28) in 1956 when he's 22. He still gets signed by the hometown Braves. He starts at catcher a year later, thus being the solid catcher for back-to-back pennant winners (and a World Series champion in 1957), and makes his first All-Star game that second pennant year in 1958.  He builds a reputation as one of the best defensive catchers in all of baseball with a solid, serviceable, clutch bat. He also proves to be a popular baseball figure altogether as a notorious prankster, a comedian, entertainer, and a friend of many of his contemporaries.

 

In 1960 he "shocked the world and sent pigs flying" (in his words) as he won the NL MVP award, turning in career bests of .309, 22 home runs, and 105 RBIs and a Gold Glove after posting a .991 fielding percentage. He stays in Milwaukee until he is traded to St. Louis in 1964, where it's Uecker - not Tim McCarver - who is the starting catcher for the World Series champion Cardinals that year, winning his 2nd ring. Instead of eventually getting traded to Philadelphia, he stays in St. Louis and is the star catcher there until 1969, when after having contributed greatly to two rings in St. Louis total (as well as one other pennant), he gets traded back to the Braves for a second stint where he provides veteran help for the '69 West division winners (but, despite his great defensive reputation, leads the league in passed balls in 1970 because Phil Niekro. This still allows for the great quip, "the only way to catch a knuckleball is to wait until it stops rolling and pick it up"). He stays put until 1971 when he joins his hometown Brewers for one final season in which he catches part-time, but also serves as a dependable pinch-hitter. Retiring in 1972, he carves up a resume of 2,073 hits, 156 homers, a respectable .272 batting average, and six Gold Gloves along with his MVP award, three World Series rings, and five pennants. He also is selected to and plays in every All-Star game from 1958-1963, and again from 1965-1968. Still being the hilarious, personable, entertainer he is? He immediately sets his sights on a broadcasting career.

 

Due to his playing career having ended in this story six seasons after when it did in real life, Uecker doesn't join the Brewers in 1971, but rather gets his shot with the Braves instead in 1973 after guest broadcasting with NBC for a season and appearing occasionally on The Tonight Show (where he still gets the name "Mr. Baseball"). His humorous and entertaining style, as well as his reputation as an All-Star and World Series champion, make him greatly popular and, with strong Braves ties, a fitting choice for the mic. This door opens because Milo Hamilton, critical of the lack of Braves' fans support and refusing to pass the issue, gets fired two seasons before he does in real life for the same reason. Thus, it is Bob Uecker who calls his former teammate Hank Aaron's 715th home run, and is eventually the voice of the Braves' national telecasts on TBS for years. After TBS expanded thier broadcasts to the Postseason and regular season games across the league, Uecker then moved solely to calling Braves games over the radio, where he still would be calling them today.

 

The great highlight in his career, though, comes when he becomes the first person ever to be elected to the Hall of Fame as a player AND receive the Frick Award, as he is elected as a player in 1993 (after much campaigning by Braves fans, as well as Braves and Cardinal HOF teammates) and receives the Frick Award ten years later in 2003. At his Frick Award acceptance speech, he opens with the quip, "I botched my induction speech so bad that Cooperstown had pity on me and gave a mulligan. I don't know what this award is, but thanks anyways."

 

All in all, Uecker still goes on to a legendary broadcasting career. Though a much more prestigious playing career robs him of some self-deprecating material, it doesn't change his style at all; the pro comedian finds plenty of other things to joke about and has even more seasons worth of hilarious stories to recall. In short, we still get Bob Uecker, only he is a Braves/nationwide-via-TBS legend rather than a Brewers one and he is also regarded as one of the premier catchers of his time.

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FinsUp1214]

I came to post here, then realized I had the last post here also. I guess I just really like Alternate Sports History!  

 

Work got slow today, so as I like to do when that happens, I pulled up old World Series games on YouTube and watched one. Today was Game 7 of the '68 Series between Detroit and St. Louis, which Detroit won. I got to thinking of Mickey Lolich, the series MVP who went 3-0 in the series (2 of those wins coming at the brink of elimination) and outdueled Bob Gibson in the classic clincher on two days rest. Even more impressive was the fact that each of his three wins were complete games. Despite this big accolade and a very solid, consistent career, Lolich has fallen short of election to the Hall of Fame, both during his years of eligibility and in the Veteran's Committee.

 

Lolich's resume is suprisingly very impressive. He went 217-191 with a 3.44 ERA, was a 3-time All-Star and aforemtioned World Series MVP, compiled 2,832 strikeouts (which was in the top 10 in history at the time of his retirement, and is still 3rd all-time among lefties), struck out more batters between 1965-75 than any other pitcher (Bob Gibson is 2nd), and is the Tigers all-time leader in strikeouts, shutouts, and games started. Despite him faring very well against strong contemporaries like Catfish Hunter, Bob Gibson, Don Drysdale, etc, he never won a Cy Young (took 2nd in 1971) and only had one World Series appearance, the two things which seem to be the biggest knock against him usually (his low 200's win total isn't much of a problem when you compare it to similar totals like Drysdale's and Hunter's). 

 

So that got me wondering and asking, if Lolich wins the Cy Young in '71 or any other year, or/and if the Tigers had appeared in or won another World Series during his prime, given he hypothetically pitches well in that series also, would it have been enough to get him in? 

 

I say absolutely yes. His career is comparable enough to other Hall of Fame contemporaries of his time, most notably Drysdale and Hunter, that those extra accolades give him the extra "umph". It'd take him a few years, given voting trends of said contemporaries (Hunter was third ballot; Drysdale tenth), but given he retired in 1979 and was first eligible in 1985, I think he gets in sometime in the early to mid 90's. That Cy Young and an extra ring would make it hard to point at those particular unchecked boxes for those voters who live and die by them.

 

That said, I personally am fairly liberal when it comes to judging careers based on awards or rings, as a player can't control if he wins an award or not (many great seasons and performances have been snubbed before for many reasons, so awards as an end-all-be-all isn't totally fair), and championships are a team effort, not an individual. Thus, I don't mind putting a lot of stock in the player's individual efforts and letting hardware be extra frosting. Lolich was a model of consistency rather than flashiness, had a much better prime than is given credit for (with the exception of his '66 and '70 seasons, he was one of the most productive pitchers in the AL from 1964-1972), was deserving of the '71 Cy Young and put up nearly as good a campaign for it in '72, and again, did rack up some hardware with a ring and an MVP award in the '68 Series, which can be argued wouldn't have been won without him. Given this paired with his records, I would be perfectly comfortable voting him in anyways.

 

 

[DnBronc]

On 6/20/2017 at 4:45 PM, FinsUp1214 said:

So that got me wondering and asking, if Lolich wins the Cy Young in '71 or any other year, or/and if the Tigers had appeared in or won another World Series during his prime, given he hypothetically pitches well in that series also, would it have been enough to get him in? 

 

If the Tigers appeared in back to back WS in 1967 and 68 like they almost did, that could have helped, although another WS appearance in 72 would have been big for him as well if he did well in that series. 

[FinsUp1214]

13 hours ago, DnBronc said:

 

If the Tigers appeared in back to back WS in 1967 and 68 like they almost did, that could have helped, although another WS appearance in 72 would have been big for him as well if he did well in that series. 

 

Yep, it would've provided a larger "big game" reputation for him for sure (though his '68 performance in and of itself was legendary). It would have been awesome to see what he could've done in multiple World Series.

 

Also, it's a shame overall the Tigers couldn't have been more successful than they were during the later part of his career. Thier offensive decline ended up hurting him badly - I think it was in '74 or '75 that in a 14 start stretch, the lineup only provided him with 14 total runs. It was a wonder he could still get 15+ wins at the time with an offense like that.