NFL Merry-Go-Round: Relocation Roundelay

[Lee Noire]

They'd have to be talking on some level right? I mean why else could this approval have gone through with such uncertainty at the top of AEG? This will be an interesting time coming up indeed.

[bosrs1]

They'd have to be talking on some level right? I mean why else could this approval have gone through with such uncertainty at the top of AEG? This will be an interesting time coming up indeed.

Not necessarily. They needed the stadium approved before they could really talk to anyone. Until the approval the stadium was like every other stadium plan, vaporware. And remember just because it's been approved doesn't mean jack. Roski's stadium in Industry has been approved for several years now and he's no closer to a stadium than AEG is today. Until one or both of them change their requirements for a discount of some kind there won't be a team coming to LA.

[Island_Style]

The Jags are drifting farther from the LA list. Tarps are already starting to come off. Even with the tarps the stadium was huge for the market. Bigger than Chicago's.

http://www.bigcatcountry.com/2012/10/4/3453504/jaguars-tarps-tickets-bears-2012

[rams80]

The Jags are drifting farther from the LA list. Tarps are already starting to come off. Even with the tarps the stadium was huge for the market. Bigger than Chicago's.

http://www.bigcatcou...kets-bears-2012

Big whoop. Soldier Field is the smallest stadium in the league.

[Gothamite]

Again, this is very positive news for Jacksonville. But they will still have to show that they're able to sustain enthusiasm once the new-owner smell wears off.

What's going largely undiscussed in this relocation discussion is that once Los Angeles is sitting pretty with two teams, there will be two new relocation options, both probably with new stadium deals in place (as that's the way these things seem to go), and both looking for new teams.

Weak markets won't be safe just because LA's no longer an option for their clubs to use as leverage.

[Island_Style]

Again, this is very positive news for Jacksonville. But they will still have to show that they're able to sustain enthusiasm once the new-owner smell wears off.

What's going largely undiscussed in this relocation discussion is that once Los Angeles is sitting pretty with two teams, there will be two new relocation options, both probably with new stadium deals in place (as that's the way these things seem to go), and both looking for new teams.

Weak markets won't be safe just because LA's no longer an option for their clubs to use as leverage.

I disagree. I don't think the NFL will worry about any of the markets being discussed to LA. None of them are special like LA or Cleveland was.

[The_Admiral]

The Jags are drifting farther from the LA list. Tarps are already starting to come off. Even with the tarps the stadium was huge for the market. Bigger than Chicago's.

http://www.bigcatcou...kets-bears-2012

They're probably taking the tarps off for the thousands of Bears fans who find it more affordable, convenient, and rewarding to fly to goddamn Jacksonville for a game than to go to the Unidentified False-Start-Inducing Object.

[Gothamite]

Again, this is very positive news for Jacksonville. But they will still have to show that they're able to sustain enthusiasm once the new-owner smell wears off.

What's going largely undiscussed in this relocation discussion is that once Los Angeles is sitting pretty with two teams, there will be two new relocation options, both probably with new stadium deals in place (as that's the way these things seem to go), and both looking for new teams.

Weak markets won't be safe just because LA's no longer an option for their clubs to use as leverage.

I disagree. I don't think the NFL will worry about any of the markets being discussed to LA. None of them are special like LA or Cleveland was.

First of all, who's talking about the NFL? Individual owners are the ones who make most realignment decisions, and the NFL as a whole rarely wants to get in the way of that.

Second, I don't see why the NFL would be terribly upset on principle if the Chargers moved to St. Louis after it has been vacated (to use a hypothetical). The NFL seems far more concerned about the details of each individual stadium deal. If, in this scenario, the Chargers get a better deal from the recently-spruned St. Louis city fathers than they could get from San Diego, the other owners will rubber-stamp it.

There is a long history of municipalities playing hardball, having their bluff called and then folding for another owner. Cleveland wouldn't build a stadium for Art Modell, but they built one as soon as they lost their team. Baltimore wouldn't build a stadium for the Irsays, but they built one to draw a new team after spending some time without one. Houston wouldn't build a new stadium for Bud Adams, but after losing the OIlers the city was prodded into ponying up for a new franchise's home. Bill Bidwell couldn't get St. Louis to build him a new stadium, but after he moved his Cardinals the city was plaible enough that Georgia Frontiere could get them to agree to all kinds of ludicrous concessions.

Everybody seems to think that if they can just hold on to their team until LA is all full up, they'll be out of the woods. History indicates otherwise.

[Island_Style]

A. The thread is about the NFL. If you aren't talking about the NFL, GTFO.

B. Why do you keep on talking like 2009 was the norm? Look at their full history and they had only one rough patch. Most teams had that rough patch in the last 10 years. TV is awesome and the economy blows. Bucs history is way more pathetic than the Jags. Same with the Bengals. Goth, we get it. you mention it after every bit of good Jax news. Like it kills you or something. I don't know why Jax made you bitter but GTF over it. Like a broken record.

[STL FANATIC]

Don't know where either of those complaints came from. All I see is NFL stadium talk, and I didn't see that Goth said anything negative about the Jags. He said it only matters if they sustain it. Pretty hard to argue.

A note on the Rams. Fan enthusiasm was very high the first couple of games, and I know they met the sell-out requirements, but apparently attendance numbers came out low. Wasn't embarrassing or anything, (loud stadium, lower bowl entirely packed, upper bowl with good amount of fans) but the numbers weren't there. I don't know what the numbers wee last night, but it appears the fans have bought back in. The stadium was (reportedly) as loud as it's been in years and it was a great showing on national TV.

I've been preaching for years that St. Louis doesn't demand a winner, they just demand a fair effort and a reason to believe. Now they're getting it. I hope it continues. I never thought fan support was a fair sticking point anyways, and I think that's only going to be driven home.

Still a lot of other unknowns. Fan support was never really the issue, and I don't think it will make or break a deal either way. It could, perhaps, encourage Roger Goodell to push for a resolution in St. Louis before anything else, but I think that's his nature anyways.

Other than that, not much has come out on the Rams-CVC discussions. I'm not sure if arbitration has begun or not. My feeling towards it remains positive, but there's no real news.

[IceCap]

B. Why do you keep on talking like 2009 was the norm? Look at their full history and they had only one rough patch. Most teams had that rough patch in the last 10 years. TV is awesome and the economy blows. Bucs history is way more pathetic than the Jags. Same with the Bengals. Goth, we get it. you mention it after every bit of good Jax news. Like it kills you or something. I don't know why Jax made you bitter but GTF over it. Like a broken record.

Come on now. He's praised the turnaround, all he's said is that it has to continue long term. It's a downright reasonable position to take.

And please stop the "move the Bucs/ Bengals, not the Jags!" talk. Talk about sounding like a broken record...

Look at the CFL. The Toronto Argonaughts do not top the league in attendance, but I would argue Toronto is the most vital market in the league. Why? As Canada's largest media market its presence in the league means the league is viable to Canadian advertisers and broadcasters.

Same thing with the Bucs, Bengals, and Bears. Will the Jags outdraw them? Sure. Does that make Jacksonville more vital a market then Cincinnati, Tampa, or Chicago? Not by a long shot. Unlike the NHL the NFL is not gate driven. TV is where the real money is made, and Tampa, Cincinnati, and Chicago are more vital media markets.

So no, the Bucs and Bengals won't move before the oh so important Jacksonville Jaguars.

[Gothamite]

A. The thread is about the NFL. If you aren't talking about the NFL, GTFO.

Charming, to the last.

I obviously didn't make my point clear - whether "the NFL will worry about any of the markets being discussed" isn't relevant to a relocation discussion. It is to an expansion discussion, because expansions are led by the league itself, but for relocation all that matters is if an existing NFL owner is interested in the market. The other NFL owners tend to rubber-stamp relocation proposals because they don't want other people telling them how to run their franchises, not to mention it's not clear that they could legally prevent a move even if they wanted to.

So when I say that what the NFL wants is not material, that's why. Park Avenue's desires are largely irrelevant to relocation options.

[Rockstar Matt]

Bucs history is way more pathetic than the Jags. Same with the Bengals.

But at least the Buccaneers and Bengal have been to Super Bowl, with Buccaneers winning a championship.

Why do you get so defense when others explore the possibility of the Jaguars moving from your hometown, to my hometown? Do you see STL Fanatic, or any other Rams fans/St. Louis residents reacting the same way? Obviously, they don't want to lose their team just like you don't want to lose your team, but at least they're able to have civil conversations about it. I've learned so much from Goth and STL Fanatic conversing on the boards and even more so when they post links.

I grew up without a local NFL franchise in the second largest media market in the United States. Los Angeles will have a team, and at this point, I don't care where the franchise comes from. Whether it be an expansion or relocation, I'll support any team.

[bosrs1]

Bucs history is way more pathetic than the Jags. Same with the Bengals.

But at least the Buccaneers and Bengal have been to Super Bowl, with Buccaneers winning a championship.

Why do you get so defense when others explore the possibility of the Jaguars moving from your hometown, to my hometown? Do you see STL Fanatic, or any other Rams fans/St. Louis residents reacting the same way? Obviously, they don't want to lose their team just like you don't want to lose your team, but at least they're able to have civil conversations about it. I've learned so much from Goth and STL Fanatic conversing on the boards and even more so when they post links.

I grew up without a local NFL franchise in the second largest media market in the United States. Los Angeles will have a team, and at this point, I don't care where the franchise comes from. Whether it be an expansion or relocation, I'll support any team.

You're actually surprised someone would get defensive when you suggest his team should be moved to your city?

[Rockstar Matt]

You're actually surprised someone would get defensive when you suggest his team should be moved to your city?

It does surprise me a little bit to be honest. I can't comprehend why anyone would get so defensive at the thought of losing their team when that thought is entertained by people who in no way, shape or form, will dictate what happens with the NFL in Los Angeles, or any other NFL Franchise.

[STL FANATIC]

In fairness, I've gotten chippy before when the Rams come up. But not for a while, and I think there's a civil conversation to be had about it. For the last many months, that's what's happened.

[Gothamite]

I think so, too.

Nobody should be trolling fans of teams in relocation talk. And nobody here is. But teams that are widely regarded to be relocation candidates have to be fair game for a civil conversation.

Yes, relocation sucks. But it's the reality, and that means it has to be fair game for conversation. We didn't create the bad situations that have led to some teams being in the conversation.

[BBTV]

The Jags are drifting farther from the LA list. Tarps are already starting to come off. Even with the tarps the stadium was huge for the market. Bigger than Chicago's.

http://www.bigcatcountry.com/2012/10/4/3453504/jaguars-tarps-tickets-bears-2012

Well that's part of the problem. There is an open market for which that stadium wouldn't be huge. If a league has a choice, they'll choose the huge market that might spend a lot more to fill a big stadium and provide exponentially more revenue sources over a tiny market that might admirably pack a bigger stadium but spend a lot less to do so and not add much local revenue into the mix. Nobody is trolling Jacksonville, just pointing out that all things being equal (which of course thy rarely are), nobody in their right mind would put a team in Jacksonville over LA.

[bosrs1]

The Jags are drifting farther from the LA list. Tarps are already starting to come off. Even with the tarps the stadium was huge for the market. Bigger than Chicago's.

http://www.bigcatcou...kets-bears-2012

Well that's part of the problem. There is an open market for which that stadium wouldn't be huge. If a league has a choice, they'll choose the huge market that might spend a lot more to fill a big stadium and provide exponentially more revenue sources over a tiny market that might admirably pack a bigger stadium but spend a lot less to do so and not add much local revenue into the mix. Nobody is trolling Jacksonville, just pointing out that all things being equal (which of course thy rarely are), nobody in their right mind would put a team in Jacksonville over LA.

Luckily with their current owner and their ironclad lease terms the Jags aren't going anywhere. So his fears can be assuaged. Whether the league ultimately wants it or not they're staying in Jacksonville for the foreseeable future.

[bosrs1]

You're actually surprised someone would get defensive when you suggest his team should be moved to your city?

It does surprise me a little bit to be honest. I can't comprehend why anyone would get so defensive at the thought of losing their team when that thought is entertained by people who in no way, shape or form, will dictate what happens with the NFL in Los Angeles, or any other NFL Franchise.

It surprises me that you're surprised. I mean look at your own statement. You'll support any team that moves to LA and don't care where it comes from. Which my implication means you don't care if LA gets it's team by stealing his. Which frankly is a callous and distasteful position from the perspective of someone whose team is threatened. Now I understand that your position is not unique, every city that's tried to steal a team has been in the same position (Winnipeg last year, OKC a few years before that, etc...). But at the same time, you can't be shocked when other fans and fanbases are annoyed or even hate you for it.