NHL Anti-Thread: Bad Business Decision Aggregator

[IceCap]

1 hour ago, gosioux76 said:

The NHL's return to Winnipeg may have been successful, but

gonna stop you right there Sparky 

[Gary]

19 minutes ago, AJM said:

 

I can tell you that Mesa has been a quiet convo in economic development circles in the valley for at least a year...somewhat in the background in case the deal fell apart. Fiesta Mall site.

Heard a joke that the Coyotes could rollerblade in the parking lot of the old Fiesta Mall on the radio this morning. As much as I laughed, I knew how much it could be true. Also heard that there’s some rumor that Ishbia could buy the team outright and move the team to Footprint and eat the losses 

[IceCap]

58 minutes ago, gosioux76 said:

But attendance (i.e. ticket revenue) and local interest aren't a big part of the equation when evaluating the big money drivers of pro sports, which is the size of the potential TV audience and franchise valuations. 

The NHL, more than any other of the Big Four, is a gate driven league. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, gosioux76 said:

I think there's no doubt that QC is the market that deserves a team.  But professional sports leagues aren't known to be charitable when it comes to profit potential. 

I wouldn't call it charitable when the team would sell out every night and net an increase in Canadian broadcast rights. 

You're acting like a team in Quebec City has no financial upside, and that's ridiculous. 

[gosioux76]

11 minutes ago, IceCap said:

The NHL, more than any other of the Big Four, is a gate driven league. 

 

 

That may be true, but it's still a small part of a franchise's overall valuation, and the valuation of the league in its entirety.

 

Consider Winnipeg: Forbes ranks it as the league's 27th most valuable franchise at $650M, but the biggest share of that — 40% — is based on revenue it collects from league-wide revenue sharing. Stadium-generated revenue, including gate receipts, totals less than 20% of the franchise's value.

 

Another piece of the pie is market size. Nearly half of franchise value for the Rangers, the most-valuable franchise, is derived from its market size compared with just 30% for Winnipeg. So if you're the NHL Board of Governors, and things like valuations matter to you, market size is likely a driving factor behind where they choose to expand or relocate a franchise. 

 

To be fair, any market — whether it be QC or otherwise — would be an improvement over the Coyotes, which Forbes ranked dead last in valuation and drives more than half of its meager value from revenue sharing. Its market size didn't help boost its value at all, though I'd guess that probably has something to do with its previous suburban location.  

[IceCap]

2 minutes ago, gosioux76 said:

To be fair, any market — whether it be QC or otherwise — would be an improvement over the Coyotes, which Forbes ranked dead last in valuation and drives more than half of its meager value from revenue sharing. Its market size didn't help boost its value at all, though I'd guess that probably has something to do with its previous suburban location.  

Well that's the kicker, isn't it? For all of Quebec's drawbacks it's still a clear improvement over Arizona. If Arizona had worked out it wouldn't be but Arizona didn't work out. 

So to keep the team there at the expense of QC is just ridiculous. 

 

If Seattle were still open then that would be a convenient out but this league is run by idiots so that's not an option. 

 

So now we need to talk about where they could go that's an improvement over QC. 

 

Salt Lake City? No NHL calibre arena.

KC? Has an arena, but no interest.

Atlanta? lol two lost teams to smaller Canadian cities* and no arena. 

Houston? Has an arena, has potential ownership, but the market has hallmarks that made Atlanta and Phoenix missteps.

 

Houston is the only one that makes any sort of sense because the arena and ownership are there, but between the ownership not being as bullish on the league as QC's and the market being about potential rather then a sure thing it raises the question if the smart play isn't to take the sure thing? It's not a bad proposition after nearly thirty years of chasing potential that never materialized. 

 

*and that's the kicker... Winnipeg proved this can work. It's not hypothetical. Which is more than we can say about Arizona's value as a NHL market. 

[gosioux76]

7 hours ago, IceCap said:

Well that's the kicker, isn't it? For all of Quebec's drawbacks it's still a clear improvement over Arizona. If Arizona had worked out it wouldn't be but Arizona didn't work out. 

So to keep the team there at the expense of QC is just ridiculous. 

 

If Seattle were still open then that would be a convenient out but this league is run by idiots so that's not an option. 

 

So now we need to talk about where they could go that's an improvement over QC. 

 

Salt Lake City? No NHL calibre arena.

KC? Has an arena, but no interest.

Atlanta? lol two lost teams to smaller Canadian cities* and no arena. 

Houston? Has an arena, has potential ownership, but the market has hallmarks that made Atlanta and Phoenix missteps.

 

Houston is the only one that makes any sort of sense because the arena and ownership are there, but between the ownership not being as bullish on the league as QC's and the market being about potential rather then a sure thing it raises the question if the smart play isn't to take the sure thing? It's not a bad proposition after nearly thirty years of chasing potential that never materialized. 

 

*and that's the kicker... Winnipeg proved this can work. It's not hypothetical. Which is more than we can say about Arizona's value as a NHL market. 

 

All of this is correct. But if it comes to choosing between a tiny market they know will work or a riskier large market with huge growth potential, they'll take their chances on the large market. 

 

 

Winnipeg, at the time, was the only alternative for Atlanta. If Houston's in play for the Coyotes, I don't see the league passing it up..

 

I hope I'm wrong. I'd much rather see QC in the league. 

[Gary]

https://www.azfamily.com/2023/05/18/sources-arizona-coyotes-consider-former-site-fiesta-mall-mesa-sports-arena/?fbclid=IwAR0D8RT01zFlK4iOM7uDCT5YCWX1btEFiMNl8wW-ps_sLJ2Nd2gN4GBmO2Q&mibextid=Zxz2cZ
 

Fiesta Mall and Mesa it is

[SCMODS]

1 hour ago, WestCoastBias said:

 

 

......and the Idaho Taters take the ice. 

[SCMODS]

1 hour ago, kimball said:

Honestly, the NHL shouldn't have expanded to 32 until the Arizona situation was solved. It would have been much easier to sell/move the Coyotes to Vegas or Seattle and then expand. Now if the Coyotes leave for Quebec, Houston, SLC, etc., etc. the situation is more hasty than if the NHL opened up an expansion bid process.

 

MLB is smart in waiting to expand until Tampa and Oakland are figured out.

 

Good idea in theory but you know the greedy owners prefer that sweet expansion money. 

[mcj882000]

23 minutes ago, gosioux76 said:

That may be true, but it's still a small part of a franchise's overall valuation, and the valuation of the league in its entirety.

 

Consider Winnipeg: Forbes ranks it as the league's 27th most valuable franchise at $650M, but the biggest share of that — 40% — is based on revenue it collects from league-wide revenue sharing. Stadium-generated revenue, including gate receipts, totals less than 20% of the franchise's value.

 

Another piece of the pie is market size. Nearly half of franchise value for the Rangers, the most-valuable franchise, is derived from its market size compared with just 30% for Winnipeg. So if you're the NHL Board of Governors, and things like valuations matter to you, market size is likely a driving factor behind where they choose to expand or relocate a franchise. 

 

To be fair, any market — whether it be QC or otherwise — would be an improvement over the Coyotes, which Forbes ranked dead last in valuation and drives more than half of its meager value from revenue sharing. Its market size didn't help boost its value at all, though I'd guess that probably has something to do with its previous suburban location.  

To put it in a simpler way, I think Quebec City is a diehard market, while Arizona, Houston, Atlanta, Salt Lake City, etc. etc. are all casual markets. And furthermore, to go off on a bit of a tangent, I think the NHL's refusal to put a team in Quebec City, bending in the wind to find any excuse they can to not put a team there, is symptomatic of a wider problem: that the NHL is perceived as taking its diehard fans for granted; making changes that the whales won't like and expanding in an attempt to Grow The Game™ towards a wider, casual audience, presuming that the whales will just suck it up and keep coming back for more.

I'm always reminded of NASCAR's own attempts to evolve beyond their diehard regional base; but whereas NASCAR's attempt has been been mostly if not a total failure, the NHL's strikes me as more of a combination-success and failure. It's failed in that markets like Arizona & Atlanta have failed, Florida & Carolina have been mixed-to-middling (call me when they still draw big crowds during losing seasons; same with Vegas for that matter), Houston is risky and SLC is a total non-starter; but it's succeeded in that unlike with NASCAR the diehards haven't really gone away either - most of the northern (not just Canadian, for the record) markets still draw really well; thus enabling the NHL to do wacky market experiments in the south. I guess I just wonder how long that'll last.

[kolob]

20 minutes ago, SCMODS said:

Good idea in theory but you know the greedy owners prefer that sweet expansion money. 

 

Which is why I think what will happen is the Coyotes will be bought by the league (again), they'll play at Mullet Arena for a couple more years with no rush to move while the NHL will put the team on the market with a price tag upwards to an expansion fee.  

 

That would allow cities (outside of Houston, KC, Quebec City, Portland, etc) to pitch the league for the team that aren't move-in ready (like SLC, San Diego, Austin, etc.) and drive up the sale price.

[Dilbert]

1 hour ago, Gary said:

https://www.azfamily.com/2023/05/18/sources-arizona-coyotes-consider-former-site-fiesta-mall-mesa-sports-arena/?fbclid=IwAR0D8RT01zFlK4iOM7uDCT5YCWX1btEFiMNl8wW-ps_sLJ2Nd2gN4GBmO2Q&mibextid=Zxz2cZ
 

Fiesta Mall and Mesa it is

I said it before and Ill say it again, Bettman wont stop until the Coyotes have tried every suburb of Phoenix. Mesa is actually further out than Glendale.

[SCMODS]

Bullhead City Coyotes 

[habsfan1]

12 minutes ago, Dilbert said:

I said it before and Ill say it again, Bettman wont stop until the Coyotes have tried every suburb of Phoenix. Mesa is actually further out than Glendale.

 

Even if it means they have to play here and only 5 people show up...

 

[DustDevil61]

With all the chatter about Salt Lake, I’ve been itching to provide my input here, as I live in Salt Lake proper, not far from the proposed MLB stadium.

 

I’ve got to agree that the Once-and-Future Delta Center is in no shape to house an NHL team for anything more than a 2-year stop-gap to an already-announced, funded, newer building.

 

What is interesting about about the Power District plan on SLC’s west side is that an article (that came out the day before the MLB plan was formally announced) did mention (through “sources,” so take that for what you will) that an NHL-caliber arena is also under consideration:

 

https://buildingsaltlake.com/officials-interested-in-building-an-mlb-stadium-on-salt-lake-citys-west-side/

 

Any talk of the Yotes somehow coming to town on such short notice would have to have all of these thing in place. I’d be estatic if Utah landed an NHL team, but I feel like, if anything, that Ryan Smith’s idea is more of playing the long game. That, and it’s only fair that Quebec City is first in line to land the Coyotes, what with having a ready building and all.

[GDAWG]

1 hour ago, Dilbert said:

I said it before and Ill say it again, Bettman wont stop until the Coyotes have tried every suburb of Phoenix. Mesa is actually further out than Glendale.

 

 

[IceCap]

Coyotes apologists- the team deserves another chance. Tempe is closer to their fanbase anyway! Once they get that arena done they're set! 

 

Tempe arena vote fails 

 

Coyotes apologists- They deserve one more chance in Mesa, which is even further away than Glendale! 

[GDAWG]

Random NHL Official: We should move the Coyotes to Quebec City

Gary Bettman: Is that in the Phoenix area?

Random NHL Official: Actually, it's in Canada

Gary Bettman: Then we will not move the Coyotes there.  It's the Phoenix area or nothing.  

 

[AJM]

 

[DG_ThenNowForever]

The actual Coyote players have to think this is all absurd, right? Imagine being a superstar kid in youth and junior hockey your whole childhood, get drafted to the pinnacle of your profession, only to end up in a smaller arena than you've ever played in with your team under constant threat of relocation.

 

Must be a total mind screw.