24 MLB Season Thread

[SFGiants58]

Let’s be real here: Hall of Fames are mostly pointless. They’re plaques or busts in museums dedicated to the larger sport. Just let the individual teams honor the players they want (retired numbers, statues, etc.) and we can use the stats to decide who is and isn’t the best and the morality behind the stuff. Let them join the music museum in Cleveland in the “disregarded” pit.
 

Like, the Bills aren’t racing to put up a statue of OJ Simpson and the Phillies halted their tribute to Pete Rose. The teams should be in charge.

[FiddySicks]

5 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

Let’s be real here: Hall of Fames are mostly pointless. They’re plaques or busts in museums dedicated to the larger sport. Just let the individual teams honor the players they want (retired numbers, statues, etc.) and we can use the stats to decide who is and isn’t the best and the morality behind the stuff. Let them join the music museum in Cleveland in the “disregarded” pit.
 

Like, the Bills aren’t racing to put up a statue of OJ Simpson and the Phillies halted their tribute to Pete Rose. The teams should be in charge.

And this is perfectly fine. Look what the Giants do with Bonds. They have tributes to him, sure. But they’re not planning on erecting any street facing statues or renaming streets after him (even though in all reality, McCovey Cove should probably be Bonds Cove. Rename the field after McCovey like Oakland did with Rickey Henderson. But I digress). They recognize the major contributions he accomplished, but he sure as hell isn’t ever going to be an ambassador to the team like Mays and now the World Series crew is. 
 

They recognize what Bonds was, because it’s honest to do so. But at the same time, they keep him at an arms length. That’s his punishment for all of this. He was one of the best players in franchise history, but will never be considered a franchise cornerstone because of his own actions. I don’t really know what else more you can reasonably ask for without making yourselves look foolish in the process. 

[Cujo]

13 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

Let’s be real here: Hall of Fames are mostly pointless. They’re plaques or busts in museums dedicated to the larger sport. Just let the individual teams honor the players they want (retired numbers, statues, etc.) and we can use the stats to decide who is and isn’t the best and the morality behind the stuff. Let them join the music museum in Cleveland in the “disregarded” pit.

 

I mostly agree. Fans would care less about the HOF (This goes for any sport)  if it didn't mean so much to the players.

[ManillaToad]

13 minutes ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

 

Happy to oblige.

 

The Astros did nothing that is not done by every single other team — including the crybaby Yankees.  Stealing signs is absolutely part of the game. The 1951 Giants used high-powered binoculars.

 

 

 

Here is where this mindset gets dangerously divorced from reality. Armstrong mainly used his own blood. Even people who get squeamish about steroids should be able to acknowledge that using one's own blood is unobjectionable.

 

 

 

No blowing-off is taking place. When the question is whether those players are good people, those facts form the basis to conclude that they are not. Those bad acts have nothing to do with the question of whether the players in question were amongst the greatest players ever — the answer to which is an unequivocal "yes". The essential point here is that ranking those players where they belong amongst the greatest ever neither ignores nor excuses those players' bad behaviour.

 

 

 

It's an unreasonable rule, as it plays "let's pretend" with the facts of history. 

 

As I mentioned earlier, banning Pete Rose from working in baseball on account of his gambling was appropriate. But acting as though he does not have a playing record but deserves recognition is a crime against history — especially considering that the gambling that got Rose banned from baseball happened after his playing career was over.

 

 

 

Straw man alert! 

 

To say that a substance should not be illegal is not the same thing as promoting its use. (But you knew that.) Note that there are legal things that are best avoided, most notably tobacco.

 

I do not speak hypothetically; the person whom I loved most died at age 39 from the ravages on her body caused by the abuse of heroin and cocaine (as well as tobacco), substances which I would recommend to nobody.

 

Indeed, I wouldn't even recommend the use of steroids, on account of the risk of cancer, as happened to Lyle Alzado.

 

Still, a person has a fundamental right to put into his or her own body that which he or she chooses to put there. This acknowledgment of one's sovereignty over one's own body provides the incontrovertible moral basis for opposing prohibition of even the most dangerous substances.

 

 

 

Well, the players from the 1960s would definitely disagree with you about amphetamines. Those players were convinced that "greenies" helped them recover from injuries and deal with fatigue. Jim Bouton wrote about this.

 

While I have not used cocaine, plenty of people whom I know have used it. And they say that that drug gave them the ability to overlook certain types of pain. So it is safe to say that the use of that drug allowed ballplayers to play when they otherwise would not have been able to play.

 

 

Bonds taking a steaming dump on two of the most important records in sports is a bigger crime against baseball history than Cooperstown not bestowing their highest honor on a guy who bet on his teams to lose.

 

6 minutes ago, FiddySicks said:

They could absolutely include these guys in some way, shape, or form, while also doing the work to explain some of the context of that particular era or issue. But the thing is, that would take a little bit of work on their parts, and it would severely diminish the time they have to be old cranky codgers whining about the “sanctity” of a child’s game where you hit a cow skin ball with a wooden stick. 
 

 

The Hall of Fame is more than plaques of inductees. The museum has plenty of stuff from Bonds and Rose. They just don't get to have a bust in there.

 

Also the idea that the BBWAA is a bunch of elderly guys sitting around a fireplace conspiring on who to keep out is laughable. The last balloting had 385 voters. Old, middle aged, and young, and they didn't put Barry in because he's a cheater.

[Sec19Row53]

5 minutes ago, ManillaToad said:

 

Bonds taking a steaming dump on two of the most important records in sports is a bigger crime against baseball history than Cooperstown not bestowing their highest honor on a guy who bet on his teams to lose.

 

The Hall of Fame is more than plaques of inductees. The museum has plenty of stuff from Bonds and Rose. They just don't get to have a bust in there.

 

Also the idea that the BBWAA is a bunch of elderly guys sitting around a fireplace conspiring on who to keep out is laughable. The last balloting had 385 voters. Old, middle aged, and young, and they didn't put Barry in because he's a cheater.

Be careful. You're injecting logic into message board arguments.

[FiddySicks]

38 minutes ago, ManillaToad said:

Also the idea that the BBWAA is a bunch of elderly guys sitting around a fireplace conspiring on who to keep out is laughable. The last balloting had 385 voters. Old, middle aged, and young, and they didn't put Barry in because he's a cheater.

I’m not so much talking physical age as I am mindset. There’s always been this antiquated and ridiculous notion that baseball is more culturally important that it ever actually was. The attitude on the steroids era guys reflects that in a really strong way. I think that a lot of baseball fans who don't look at baseball as this major cultural institution, and see it more as the entertainment product that it actually is, are sort of tired of the “outrage”, because it seems so silly. 

[infrared41]

1 hour ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

Note that there are legal things that are best avoided, most notably tobacco.

 

 

Thanks for reminding me.  I also used tobacco when I played.

[SFGiants58]

Yup, the false importance and “mystical Americana nature” really bugs me, if that makes sense. I’d rather emphasize what Ball Four or literally any pre-WWI baseball stories do, which is the wackiness and the often-rebellious nature of the players.
 

It’s so much more entertaining than the Norman Rockwell-like garbage.

[infrared41]

1 hour ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

Well, the players from the 1960s would definitely disagree with you about amphetamines. Those players were convinced that "greenies" helped them recover from injuries and deal with fatigue. Jim Bouton wrote about this.

 

While I have not used cocaine, plenty of people whom I know have used it. And they say that that drug gave them the ability to overlook certain types of pain. So it is safe to say that the use of that drug allowed ballplayers to play when they otherwise would not have been able to play.

 

I've read Ball Four more times than I can remember, where did Bouton say that greenies added 5mph to his fastball or helped Steve Hovely hit an extra 20 home runs? Cocaine didn't do all to enhance anyone's performance.

 

With all due respect, your argument is ridiculous.

[infrared41]

1 hour ago, SFGiants58 said:

Let’s be real here: Hall of Fames are mostly pointless.

 

It's Halls of Fame, but your point remains.

[FiddySicks]

9 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

Yup, the false importance and “mystical Americana nature” really bugs me, if that makes sense. I’d rather emphasize what Ball Four or literally any pre-WWI baseball stories do, which is the wackiness and the often-rebellious nature of the players.
 

It’s so much more entertaining than the Norman Rockwell-like garbage.

Yes. Exactly. I fell so hard into ALL of this when I was younger. But then you get older, realize what the world actually is (or, in the very least, what it’s become), and realize that a lot of the mystique around baseball is just their fabrication of their own place and importance within society. They use it as a warm blanket to cover up the warts, and as a screen to avoid dealing with any of the actual problems. It’s as soulless of a money making operation as any other business entity. 
 

And I’m not indicting baseball alone on this. There are countless “American institutions” that rest on these laurels and use it to hand wave anything that’s problematic. But people are starting to push back on some of this and baseball certainly isn’t going to be immune from that. 
 

Baseball has a choice to either stick to their guns and continue to shrink in popularity, or adapt. For as dumb as some of these guys at the top are, they’re at least trying.
 

I just wish the HoF would start to reflect some of that, too. 

[infrared41]

10 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

Yup, the false importance and “mystical Americana nature” really bugs me, if that makes sense. I’d rather emphasize what Ball Four or literally any pre-WWI baseball stories do, which is the wackiness and the often-rebellious nature of the players.

It’s so much more entertaining than the Norman Rockwell-like garbage.

 

Baseball is every bit of its "mystical Americana nature" and "Norman Rockwell-like garbage."  It's also all the other things that you'd prefer to talk about. It doesn't have to be one or the other. We don't need to tear it down just because tearing things down is all the rage these days.

 

What entertains you might not entertain someone else. Sometimes we don't get our way and we have to live with being bugged about it. 

[FiddySicks]

 

39 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

I’d rather emphasize what Ball Four or literally any pre-WWI baseball stories do, which is the wackiness and the often-rebellious nature of the players.
 

It’s so much more entertaining than the Norman Rockwell-like garbage.

A bit of a sidebar here, but if you’re looking for a lot of crazy old baseball stories like that, check out The Dollop podcast. It’s FANTASTIC. And it really emphasizes how much of a circus baseball was back in those old days. You’re right, it’s miles more interesting than the sterile Ken Burnsificatuon of baseball history we have now. 

[SFGiants58]

12 minutes ago, FiddySicks said:

 

A bit of a sidebar here, but if you’re looking for a lot of crazy old baseball stories like that, check out The Dollop podcast. It’s FANTASTIC. 

Thanks! Crime in Sports is similarly pretty fun, especially when they talk about old timey baseball and wrestling. No joke, the podcast is how I got into wrestling.

[ManillaToad]

41 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

 

It’s so much more entertaining than the Norman Rockwell-like garbage.

 

He did have some really nice paintings though

[The_Admiral]

4 hours ago, SFGiants58 said:

Yup, the false importance and “mystical Americana nature” really bugs me, if that makes sense. I’d rather emphasize what Ball Four or literally any pre-WWI baseball stories do, which is the wackiness and the often-rebellious nature of the players.
 

It’s so much more entertaining than the Norman Rockwell-like garbage.

 

Baseball is all of those things. It's a constant through the years and it's a wacky carnival with eccentric players. It shaped the English language more than any sport. There's enough bandwidth to honor all the things baseball has been without taking anything away.

[BBTV]

So the Phillies and Braves don't play each other again until... July?  Godsdamned July?  How the hell can two divisional teams go more than three full months without playing each other?  Screw this schedule.

[SFGiants58]

1 hour ago, The_Admiral said:

 

Baseball is all of those things. It's a constant through the years and it's a wacky carnival with eccentric players. It shaped the English language more than any sport. There's enough bandwidth to honor all the things baseball has been without taking anything away.

 

True, but I've just been having a mental block with all the romanticism stuff in sports lately. The "Norman Rockwell-like garbage" comment in particular comes from me falling out of love with a lot of Americana material as a whole, especially in all of my self-discovery. It's more of a "me problem" than anything else. No judgement on my end if that's what you see in the game, the mysticism is something I just can't connect with anymore.

 

Anybody else ever go through this kind of disconnect? Is there any way to get that feeling back?

[FiddySicks]

45 minutes ago, BBTV said:

So the Phillies and Braves don't play each other again until... July?  Godsdamned July?  How the hell can two divisional teams go more than three full months without playing each other?  Screw this schedule.

That happened with the Giants and Dodgers a few years ago. They played either the opening series or the second one, and then not again until end of June or early July. I think it’s one of those quirks with the schedule that happens every so often and there just so happens to be two teams kind of left out of the loop. I think it started happening, or at least more frequently,  when they fully integrated the AL/NL schedule. 

[infrared41]

46 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

Anybody else ever go through this kind of disconnect? Is there any way to get that feeling back?

 

Cocaine and steroids.