Few questions about "The Great One," Wayne Gretzky

[Plaid Paint]

Some objective ones to start off.

1) Which side of his jersey did he not tuck into his pants?

2) Why did he do this? Was it an homage to one of his idols/heros?

On another message board there was a fairly heated discussion as to whether or not Gretzky was the greatest hockey player of all time.

The consensus seemed to be that while he was the greatest offensive weapon in the history of the game and the greatest scorer/offensive player in the history of the game, he wasn't a "true all-around hockey player. When asked about this phrase, the most common answer was that Gretzky was afraid to mix it up/too much of a sissy to get his hands dirty or his knuckles bloody and the word sissy was bandied about. Gordie Howe was mosat often sited as the greatest hockey player of all time.

Keith Olbermann also makes this argument, but he doesn't say any of the Gretzky was a sissy type of stuff.

Now admittedly hockey is a very physical game, but Gretzky proved that you didn't have to be big and burly to succeed. Also I don't recall him backing down from any confrontations.

So, that was a long winded way of asking if Gretzky is in fact, the greatest hockey player of all time? And if not, then who is and where does Gretzky rank?

[wheateater]

1. Gretz tucked the right side of his jersey into his pants (meaning, therefore, that the left side was hanging out).

2. Legend has it he did this because when he was little, he was small for his age, so his jersey was always too big for him. For that reason, he tucked the right side in so that it didn't interfere with his right hand (the top hand on his stick) so he could handle the puck easier. I guess he got accustomed to it and felt it was helping him play better as he grew....eventually, it became his trademark.

Oh, and in regards to your other part, I think he was the best player, yes. Best all-around player, no. I'd say either Howe or Bobby Orr would share the top spot for me, with Howe maybe getting the edge because of his ability to complete his own version of the hat trick (goal, assist, fight) at any time. I don't know where I'd put 99 on the all-round player list, since he rarely backchecked with any effort and never played dirty....that's not to say he didn't play hard, but he knew what his job was, and if he could help his team score 6 or 7 goals, it didn't matter if he failed to help out defensively.

[CaolinaJoe]

BOBBY ORR!!!!

[scooter13]

1. Gretz tucked the right side of his jersey into his pants (meaning, therefore, that the left side was hanging out).

Another fact to that is the manufactures logo position. They were always on the right back bottom hem. So for Gretz they would have the logo on both sides of the hem, this way they would still be visible.

As for my opinions of him, I say Bobby Orr is number one. I would put Gretz in the top 10, but probably not the top 5.

[OB33]

Wayne Gretzky is up to this point the only exception to that whole "Defense wins championships" bit. Although hopefully there will be a new admission at SBXL .

[Bleujayone]

Bobby Orr without a doubt is the best all-around best player. Gretzky is the best offensive player, but he was not known for his defense, his toughness on the boards (which is not to call him a sissy but a bruiser he was not), or his overall teamwork. In the end the puck would go to him and rarely the other way around. Gretzky could score often and everwhere, no doubt about it. It was all something to see, but I cannot call "The Great One" the greatest. For me, Orr could do it all and I think there would be a little less room for doubt had he had a slightly longer career or at least finished it Boston instead of in the mess his damned agent pulled.

It's kind of like Michael Jordan. I can honestly call him the best offensive player in the history of basketball. But he is by no means an all-around best player. Sure we can remember all kinds of shots and dunks Jordan put up, but most of us would be hard-pressed to remember a good steal, or fantastic assist he had. That title goes to both Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. Both players were known for their scoring, their passing, their assists, and their defense. They were both also know for their constant work at practice. Jordan was known as being naturally gifted and as much as he practiced, he was never known to be as obsessive as Bird and Magic.

This is not to say that neither Gretzky or Jordan are anything less than great players, but being the best at scoring the most points (or goals) does not in my opinion make you the greatest player.

[Plaid Paint]

Bobby Orr without a doubt is the best all-around best player. Gretzky is the best offensive player, but he was not known for his defense, his toughness on the boards (which is not to call him a sissy but a bruiser he was not), or his overall teamwork. In the end the puck would go to him and rarely the other way around. Gretzky could score often and everwhere, no doubt about it. It was all something to see, but I cannot call "The Great One" the greatest. For me, Orr could do it all and I think there would be a little less room for doubt had he had a slightly longer career or at least finished it Boston instead of in the mess his damned agent pulled.

It's kind of like Michael Jordan. I can honestly call him the best offensive player in the history of basketball. But he is by no means an all-around best player. Sure we can remember all kinds of shots and dunks Jordan put up, but most of us would be hard-pressed to remember a good steal, or fantastic assist he had. That title goes to both Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. Both players were known for their scoring, their passing, their assists, and their defense. They were both also know for their constant work at practice. Jordan was known as being naturally gifted and as much as he practiced, he was never known to be as obsessive as Bird and Magic.

This is not to say that neither Gretzky or Jordan are anything less than great players, but being the best at scoring the most points (or goals) does not in my opinion make you the greatest player.

Couple of things.

Gretzky wasn't built like defensemen, so I think it'd only be fair to give him a bit of slack on that one. And as for his teamwork, he does hold both the single season and alltime assist records, no.

Now then, about Michael Jordan.

When he came into a the NBA, he was mainly a drive to the basket player. His outside game was average at best, and yeah he went mostly by instince on defense. But to say that Jordan didn't work hard at practice is outrageous. It was well known throughout the league that Jordan seemed to work even harder and drive himself more in practice then he did in actual games. I will grant that he wasn't as mucc of a gym rat as Bird was, but I daresay he was even more obsessive about winning and being the best then Bird or Jordan.

Surely you've heard the story of how during his last season with the Wizards, Jordan and Richard Hamilton were having a shooting contest at the end of practice, for money natch, and Jordan was losing quite badly.

Jordan would not leave or let Hamilton leave until he had won back the money he'd lost.

Doug Collins and the other players sat on the bus for 45 minutes waiting until Jordan had decided he'd had enough.

And as for his defense, he, unlike either Bird or Jordan was named the NBA's Defensive Player of the Year and he worked at. He had to learn how to play defense.

When he came back to the Bulls he had learned that fadeaway jumper because while he could still drive to the hole if need be, he had lost perhaps 1/20 of a step, and that fadeway was a means of compensating.

And dear Og, I've hijacked my own thread.

[CaolinaJoe]

Bobby Orr without a doubt is the best all-around best player. Gretzky is the best offensive player, but he was not known for his defense, his toughness on the boards (which is not to call him a sissy but a bruiser he was not), or his overall teamwork. In the end the puck would go to him and rarely the other way around. Gretzky could score often and everwhere, no doubt about it. It was all something to see, but I cannot call "The Great One" the greatest. For me, Orr could do it all and I think there would be a little less room for doubt had he had a slightly longer career or at least finished it Boston instead of in the mess his damned agent pulled.

It's kind of like Michael Jordan. I can honestly call him the best offensive player in the history of basketball. But he is by no means an all-around best player. Sure we can remember all kinds of shots and dunks Jordan put up, but most of us would be hard-pressed to remember a good steal, or fantastic assist he had. That title goes to both Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. Both players were known for their scoring, their passing, their assists, and their defense. They were both also know for their constant work at practice. Jordan was known as being naturally gifted and as much as he practiced, he was never known to be as obsessive as Bird and Magic.

This is not to say that neither Gretzky or Jordan are anything less than great players, but being the best at scoring the most points (or goals) does not in my opinion make you the greatest player.

Obviously you don't know basketball. Jordan won Defensive player of the Year once, was an 8 time 1st Team All-Defense, and is the #2 All-Time steals guy.

[wheateater]

Couple of things.

Gretzky wasn't built like defensemen, so I think it'd only be fair to give him a bit of slack on that one. And as for his teamwork, he does hold both the single season and alltime assist records, no?

Yes, Gretzky was only 6' tall and usually hung around 180 lbs. That's tiny by today's Hummer H2 standards...

And just to emphasize your point about his remarkable unselfishness: When it comes to assists per game averages in a season, Gretz holds the the top 7 spots and 11 of the top 14.

[Bleujayone]

"Obviously you don't know basketball. Jordan won Defensive player of the Year once, was an 8 time 1st Team All-Defense, and is the #2 All-Time steals guy."

.................

Okay first off, I didn't say he didn't do ANY defense- I said he wasn't (and still isn't) known for his defense- it is his scoring. And second of all, I don't care what awards he got for defense- he really didn't deserve many them, when people think of Jordan, I guarentee defense is far from the first thing that comes to mind. The man was a major ball hog throughout much of his career, not just when the Bulls were a weak team at start of his career. He simply did not pass the ball, the ball was passed to him. People who score the number of points he did do not pass the ball off, and yes that makes him less of an all-around player for it. And as for his steals, most of the steals he got- he then kept the ball and jammed it himself. That makes him a scoring machine, but not an all-around player which is the point of the argument.

Between Jordan's constant screwing off with his golf games (I recall more than one instance where he cited poor performance on the court because he was on the links too long), irresponsible gambling, his 2-year hobby stint playing baseball, his yo-yoing retiring, his personal life interferring with his game (gambling alligation, father's death and affair(s), and more than one instance of not backing his teammates up- yeah I do think he wasn't as dedicated a team player as Bird or Magic. He was very rah-rah when it came to winning, but he did it with his mega scoring and very little else.

I also think he had far more natural talent for basketball than the other Bird or Magic and therefor did not need to practice as long to be as good. As a result it rubbed off on the next generation of players most of whom looked up to him. I think that because of this lax work ethic and one-man-team atitude for which he did have, many players since then grew up with a similar attitude. The game has changed since then. The results have been a noticable lack of defense and passing to one another. I think Jordan finally began to realize this in his years with the Washington Wizards. No, Jordan did not create this atmosphere all by himself, but he sure was the posterboy for being a one-man show on a 12-man roster. He did not win championships before Jackson made him conform to part of a team. Pippen was known more for his assists, Grant (and later Rodman) for the rebounds, Paxon for the the clutch. Jordan was known for putting up high scores night in and night out. Jackson took that talent and made it part of a machine.

There are other players known for dishing off the ball after making the steal. He isn't one of them. I feel he does not deserve the awards he has for defense. I remember when he got some of these awards, and was left scratching my head. As I said, great player, yes. Great scorer, yes. All-round player; not so much. That's why I said it was an OPINION just as we've also discussed various people in sports whom we felt didn't deserve All-Star votes and MVP awards.

[Stampman]

I saw Gretzky play in person when he was in his prime--and he did not backcheck-he rarely went into his own end of the rink-so points off for that.

As for his assists--a lot of them were phantom assists--they would award him an assist just for being on the ice when the assist(s) should have gone to another Oiler or not been awarded.--that's not taking anything away from his accomplishments--just pointing out a discrepancy as I see it.

Howe was better overall for reasons cited above and also--he was much more durable while banging it up...

[Mings]

Wayne Gretzky is up to this point the only exception to that whole "Defense wins championships" bit. Although hopefully there will be a new admission at SBXL .

Doubt it with what we call a defense and Doss getting arrested and probably be suspended. Morris will probably wont be back. And the new rookie is being sued. All and all a great start. All we need is the Edge to retire saying that he love to do whatever better than football.

[pcgd]

To me, Gretzky and Jordan were not the best players of all time, but both are very high up there. (actually I do think Jordan was the best of all time...but that's not the point of my post)

However, they were the most important players to their respective sports. Gretzky brought hockey to america. He made it more popular than it ever was. He directly was responsible for probably 10 of the teams that are in the NHL right now. Some might call this a bad thing, but as far as the success and making the sport legit in the states (now this is the states view, not Canada. As far as canadian hockey there were plenty that held the torch before him) Gretzky is responsible and important for shaping the hockey world today.

Jordan changed the way athletes earn money and are looked at for all sports. He made the NBA what it is today, ushering in all the players that are playing today. He started the personalized (well for a player) shoe movement and replica jerseys becoming vastly popular (the first replica I ever remember seeing worn alot was a red Jordan jersey...doesn't mean it didn't exist but he brought it to the mainstream) Before him, players weren't give 50 million dollar contracts for gatorade, or their own shoes. To me because of this, for good or bad, he was the most important player in NBA history, perhaps in all of sports. He created the modern athlete.

[WSU151]

And second of all, I don't care what awards he got for defense- he really didn't deserve many them, when people think of Jordan, I guarentee defense is far from the first thing that comes to mind.

I disagree. Jordan was one of the better defensive players in the league, especially in the early 90s. Hell he averaged over two steals per game for his career, and one year he averaged over three steals per game. Not bad defense in my opinion. And oh yeah, Defensive Player of the Year. 1st Team Defensive Team 8 years. Yeah....terrible...no, no....awful defensive player

The man was a major ball hog throughout much of his career, not just when the Bulls were a weak team at start of his career.  He simply did not pass the ball, the ball was passed to him.  People who score the number of points he did do not pass the ball off, and yes that makes him less of an all-around player for it. And as for his steals, most of the  steals he got- he then kept the ball and jammed it himself.  That makes him a scoring machine, but not an all-around player which is the point of the argument.

Geezus. This has to be the worst argument ever. You're hating him because he was the best shooter on the team?? Do you really think this is what his coach was thinking: "Michael, you shoot over 50% on the floor, but your teammates shoot about 40%. So please, don't shoot it. Pass it." ?????? The object of the game in basketball is SCORING.

The man averaged over five assists per game for his career - and you call him a ballhog?? One year he averaged 8 assists per game!!! 8!! And you discount his steals because he didn't pass in transition?? Can I have some of what you're smoking??

He averaged 30 points, 6 rebounds, 5 assists, and 2 steals for his career, and nearly a blocked shot per game. Those aren't shabby numbers.

Please don't ever tell me Jordan wasn't a great all-around player. You sound like a complete idiot.

I also think he had far more natural talent for basketball than the other Bird or Magic and therefor did not need to practice as long to be as good. As a result it rubbed off on the next generation of players most of whom looked up to him.

This is where I know you are a complete idiot. Michael Jordan was cut from his high school basketball team. CUT. You know what he did?? He practiced. Woke up every morning at 5 am and practiced shooting. He practiced for hours and hours. Read his biographies. The guy worked his ASS off to get good. Easily one of the hardest working players in the league. I wish you would've stopped your argument before that point, but, hey, ignorance shines when you don't expect it.

I know you're claiming this is your opinion, but when the facts show otherwise, when the stories are contrary to your opinion, then your opinion is dead wrong.

[Sterling84]

I think Pat is pretty close to a consensus on this as we will arrive at. While Gretz and MJ may not be undeniably the "best" to ever play they certainly can lay claim to the most important players in their respective sports of the modern era.

"The Best" is impossible to qualify anyway (but it sure is fun to argue).

I have my own anti-Jordan biases that have formed in adulthood as the hero-worship fades away.

I found Plaid's tale of MJ holding up the bus to win back his dough in a shooting contest to be extrememly revealing about his personality. Me, I can handle losing. It doesn't bother me and is a necessarily and inevitable part of life. MJ doesn't seem to get that and that story, while meant to be a testament to his will and spirit, seems to me the makings of a gambling problem or disorder.

But I also acknowledge that virtually any person (man or woman) who we regard as "great" has likely been very off-putting, single-minded, and difficult to get along with. It's one thing to be nice and respected (which is what I hope people remember me for) but quite another to sacrifice that to be truly "great" at something. You can't have it both ways I think.

Perhaps to be great like that, you have to channel your weaknesses (poor sport, inability to accept defeat) and turn it into competitive drive. I think what makes MJ a pretty miserable human being is precisely what made him so unstoppable on the court.

And that's alright. Competition is healthy and without it progress is impossible. But as much as #99 and #23 changed the games they played.....looking back did they change them for the better? League's market their individual personalities now instead of team play and one of the leagues is near extinction while the other faces similar labor negotiations soon. Every player is less concerned with titles and more with movie deals, sports drink endorsements and the salaries MJ helped usher in are crippling every sport but football.

(* side note. I will give MJ props for playing out his initial rookie contract which if I remember was pretty small - less than a million per? Setting the trend for athletes to come that there is goodwill and money to be made elsewhere..endorsements....to satisfy your needs while you don't handcuff your team $$-wise.)

I'll tell ya this much, I'd love to be able to play either game like they did for just an afternoon.

[DEAD!]

Yes, Gretzky was only 6' tall and usually hung around 180 lbs. That's tiny by today's Hummer H2 standards...

Make that today's H3 standards

I wouldn't necessarily call Gretzky the greatest because of his lack of defense. Jordan being the greatest basketball player can be debatable as well. But when he left the Bulls the first time, the team played nowhere near the way they played with him. I can also make an argument for Bill Russell as the greatest NBA players.

[CaolinaJoe]

Jordan being the greatest basketball player can be debatable as well. But when he left the Bulls the first time, the team played nowhere near the way they played with him. I can also make an argument for Bill Russell as the greatest NBA players.

3 Peat before he retired the first time and a 3 Peat after his foray into baseball. I also think he was the #2 assist guy on everyone of those teams.

How can fault a guy for stealing the ball, leading the fastbreak and scoring?

His personal flaws you complain about didn't seem to effect the team much, they won 6 Titles. Of course without baseball, they may have won 10.

[Brass]

The consensus seemed to be that while he was the greatest offensive weapon in the history of the game and the greatest scorer/offensive player in the history of the game, he wasn't a "true all-around hockey player. When asked about this phrase, the most common answer was that Gretzky was afraid to mix it up/too much of a sissy to get his hands dirty or his knuckles bloody and the word sissy was bandied about. Gordie Howe was mosat often sited as the greatest hockey player of all time.

Keith Olbermann also makes this argument, but he doesn't say any of the Gretzky was a sissy type of stuff.

You cannot compare Wayne Gretzky and Gordie Howe. They played two different styles of hockey and played in two different eras. Every era, the game changes.

[DEAD!]

Every era, the game changes.

... and in this era, there are no games .....

[STL FANATIC]

Thankfully, I don't have to stick up for MJ, it's already been done. To say he was not a great overall player is terribly untrue. I don't know him personally obviously, and I've heard good and bad things about his personality, but as a basketball player and a hardworker, he was great. Although you will find an argument in any sport when asked who the greatest player ever was, I think Michael Jordan is considered the greatest ever for his sport by more people than any other athlete in any other sport.

As for Gretzky, I don't think he was the best ever, but I won't make an attempt to say who was. It's already been said he was a great scorer and offensive player, but that overall, he wasn't as great. Remember, he didn't have to do any dirty work, because Marty McSorley was being paid to do it for him. In the end, that kind of role for McSorely came to an extreme and it ended his career. Also, the refs, as happens with many star players, had a tendancy to overlook things for Gretzky.

Regardless, Gretzky still has to be up there probably top 5.