Las Vegas or Charlotte MLB uni challenge

[Brian in Boston]

All those AA franchise values will rise as a result, as will the AAA ones.

Yes... while the value of Major League franchises would plummet because you could never be sure how long a franchise would remain at the MLB level.

Promotion/relegation is never going to be an established and embraced part of the professional sports landscape in the United States and Canada. NEVER.

Why? Number one, the North American sports culture hasn't grown up with promotion/relegation. It is culturally a foreign concept to fans in our two countries. Therefore, it has no appeal in the marketplace.

Number two, North American sports fans want to root for "big-league" teams. Sure... we'll support the local minor-league squad. However, that's because it is right in our own backyard and serves as a local diversion. However, the teams that truly ignite our passions are the major professional clubs. They represent the peak in sports. The likelihood that a fan of a relegated major league team is going to go on rooting for said franchise just as hard after it has been "sent down" is ludicrous. The fan in question will grow disenchanted with the relegated club because he/she will see it as the glorified minor-league squad it has become. Then, his/her allegiance will switch elsewhere.

Finally, no pro sports owner in North America is going to shell out "major league" money to buy a "major league" team, only to see said team become a glorified "minor league" franchise after relegation. Further, given the fact that so-called "small-market" teams are struggling to keep up with their "large-market" brethren in the majors now, how are promoted "smaller market" teams going to make a go of it in "the Bigs"? I mean, if Pittsburgh is struggling to make it as a Major League Baseball market with a civic population of 327,898 people and a Metro Area of 2,494,949 people, then how is Richmond - with a civic population of 197,456 and a Metro Area of 1,154,317 - going to cut it at the MLB level upon promotion?

Bottom line? While promotion/relegation may give fans in minor-league markets hope that their favorite local squad can temporarily enjoy "life in the Bigs", fans in major-league markets have absolutely nothing to gain under the system. In point of fact, promoted lower level teams won't hang on to Major League membership for long as they'll more than likely have their heads handed to them by even the lowliest of MLB clubs. Meanwhile, relegated Major League teams will become objects of derision.

It would not work here... no way, no how.

[marlinfan]

Any expansion in the Northeast is dead (maybe Buffalo is viable). You can thank Bud Selig and Peter Angelos for that. You add a team in NJ or NYC and MLB would have to pay off the Mets, Yankees, and maybe even Phillies. You add a team in Connecticutt and you'd have to payoff maybe the same amount of teams.

If this were to ever happen you are looking at a possible cost of more than a billion dollars.

Expansion has a whole is dead atleast for another 15 years. You look at possible expansion cities Las Vegas, Charlotte, Buffalo, Portland, New Orleans and San Antonio. Some of these cities are 10-15 years away from being big enough to support a team. Even Las Vegas right now is such a great market.

Relocation right now is the only way you are going to get a team in a new city. Any cities you relocate to right now are a HUGE downgrade (except for San Jose). You look at teams availible to relocate and two of them (Florida and Minnesota) are near agreements with their cities respectively. Oakland has first dibs on Las Vegas, and I don't they are moving there. They would be better off paying off the Giants and moving to San Jose.

Tampa Bay WILL NOT relocate. Tampa Bay is a very good market (better than Miami, IMO). Once they put a good product on the field the Trop will fill up nicely.

The current divisional structure is fine IMO. Why fix something that is not broken? With 8 divisions you begin to get average teams into the playoffs. Hell, look at the current format the NL West champion may not get 90 wins!

The 2 divisons per league format doesn't work anymore. To many teams will drop out of the race early costing many teams a lot of $$$.

[gmac_kl]

1 thing Bring back the Expos!!!!!!

A downtown stadium and a real owner would have saved this team.

Lets not forget that MLB still owns the Nationals, and for some reason they didnt have half of their team traded away for cash or etc. Same owners, yet MLB purposly didnt give the Expos a chance to win. Plus, i higly dought any of you would want to go watch baseball in the friendly giants toilet bowl.

[Skull Position]

Nope.

Tampa couldn't sell out more than one game its entire first season. It took six seasons to get the next sellout. That's before the lousy finishes, before the disenchantment with ownership.

That's a lousy market, plain and simple. Even teams with crummy ownership draw better than that.

It's an emerging market. Those make for lousy baseball cities. Too many fans have an allegiance to another franchise first and foremost.

MLB doesn't "need" the market. What could Tampa possibly bring that MLB "needs"?

Tampa couldn't sell out more than one game its entire first season. It took six seasons to get the next sellout. That's before the lousy finishes, before the disenchantment with ownership. < see The Trop- poor locale - poor aesthetic and hard to get to - like I said a huge mistake compounded by that moron Naimoli...gimme a decent ballpark already

That's a lousy market, plain and simple. Even teams with crummy ownership draw better than that.< imperical data please...I appreciate your opinion, but back it up...from what first hand experience do you speak? I gather from your s/n that your a New Yorker, which beckons the question...if it's so lousy why have so many of you relocated there?

It's an emerging market. Those make for lousy baseball cities. Too many fans have an allegiance to another franchise first and foremost< See The Bucs - for years more Bears and Packers fans than homers...the tide turned with a decent product and facility... as for emerging - 3 million + in the Suncoast area - no its not NY or LA but its beyond emerging..yes,once upon a time it was transient, but not nearly as much today...tradition isnt built overnight, but we'll get there

MLB doesn't "need" the market. What could Tampa possibly bring that MLB "needs"? <$$$ - strong media market - with people with expendable income - why do you think they went there to begin with?

If they were consistently competitive, would we be having this debate? An emphatic NO. Whose fault is it that they arent competitive? The fan's?...give em something to see and they'll be there...why the hate?

[Blackjack76]

All those AA franchise values will rise as a result, as will the AAA ones.

Yes... while the value of Major League franchises would plummet because you could never be sure how long a franchise would remain at the MLB level.

Promotion/relegation is never going to be an established and embraced part of the professional sports landscape in the United States and Canada. NEVER.

Why? Number one, the North American sports culture hasn't grown up with promotion/relegation. It is culturally a foreign concept to fans in our two countries. Therefore, it has no appeal in the marketplace.

Number two, North American sports fans want to root for "big-league" teams. Sure... we'll support the local minor-league squad. However, that's because it is right in our own backyard and serves as a local diversion. However, the teams that truly ignite our passions are the major professional clubs. They represent the peak in sports. The likelihood that a fan of a relegated major league team is going to go on rooting for said franchise just as hard after it has been "sent down" is ludicrous. The fan in question will grow disenchanted with the relegated club because he/she will see it as the glorified minor-league squad it has become. Then, his/her allegiance will switch elsewhere.

Finally, no pro sports owner in North America is going to shell out "major league" money to buy a "major league" team, only to see said team become a glorified "minor league" franchise after relegation. Further, given the fact that so-called "small-market" teams are struggling to keep up with their "large-market" brethren in the majors now, how are promoted "smaller market" teams going to make a go of it in "the Bigs"? I mean, if Pittsburgh is struggling to make it as a Major League Baseball market with a civic population of 327,898 people and a Metro Area of 2,494,949 people, then how is Richmond - with a civic population of 197,456 and a Metro Area of 1,154,317 - going to cut it at the MLB level upon promotion?

Bottom line? While promotion/relegation may give fans in minor-league markets hope that their favorite local squad can temporarily enjoy "life in the Bigs", fans in major-league markets have absolutely nothing to gain under the system. In point of fact, promoted lower level teams won't hang on to Major League membership for long as they'll more than likely have their heads handed to them by even the lowliest of MLB clubs. Meanwhile, relegated Major League teams will become objects of derision.

It would not work here... no way, no how.

No crap, and for all the points you addressed. That's what I said at the end of the my relegation dissertation. But it is fun to think about.

Just think, five years from now, the Lynchburg Hillcats could play the Modesto Nuts in the World Series....

[thegame4219]

i dont think MLB will ever go back to Montreal if they do it will be shocked and confused because the whole situation of the Expos was the falut of the fans in Montreal. MLB didnt want to spend Money on the Expos because nobody was showing up in 2002 when the Expos were over .500. And the owners that wanted to buy the Expos wanted to move them also but they couldn't come up with the money. The Expos were doomed because of the Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Larry Walker, Tim Raines firesale, but the Expos could of been saved in 2003-2004 when there was talk of the Expos being moved/contracted but the fans didnt come to games, and in there last game the fans came out and wanted to fight the moving of the Expos. Montreal didnt know what they had until it was gone.

[JH42XCC]

Baltimore Orioles

Charlotte SkyHawks

Tampa Bay Devil Rays

Texas Rangers

New York Mets

Philadelphia Phillies

Pittsburgh Pirates

Washington Nationals

North

Chicago Cubs

Colorado Rockies

Milwaukee Brewers

St. Louis Cardinals

South

Atlanta Braves

Cincinnati Reds (considering Cincinnati, OH, is on the Ohio-Kentucky border)

Florida Marlins

Houston Astros

West

Arizona Diamondbacks

Los Angeles Dodgers

San Diego Padres

San Francisco Giants

This could work!

Atlanta is completely removed from its biggest rival, the New York Mets. Strong work.

Baltimore got put on the scrap heap. Orioles fans would love it because it's a total walkover to beat the Rays, Rangers, and expansion team, but that division is a scrap heap. Which you get when you have too many divisions. See also: NFC South.

The Reds and Astros are removed from the Cubs and Cardinals. I know Cincinnati on the border with Kentucky, but Kentucky isn't even really the South, from a cultural standpoint. And all that aside, the Reds, the Oldest Team In Baseball, should be with other old teams that it's been playing for over a century, like the Cubs, Cardinals, and Pirates. Not the Marlins.

Why is Colorado with the Midwest? St. Louis is at the other end of Illinois and across the river, Milwaukee is two hours from Chicago, Denver is...not?

These eight-division things just don't work. They really don't. Too many compromises and stupid moves. Adding two teams to the AL and preserving six divisions is the minimally invasive way to expand baseball. Like so.

AL West

Los Angeles, Oakland, Seattle, Texas, Portland

AL Central

Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Minnesota, Kansas City, Toronto

AL East

New York, Boston, Baltimore, Charlotte, Tampa Bay

NL West

same

NL Central

same

NL East

same

Easy.

I think this idea looks better, but I think the 5th AL West team should be Vegas.

[JH42XCC]

... or we could have this:

American League

East

Baltimore Orioles

Boston Red Sox

New York Yankees

Toronto Blue Jays

North

Chicago White Sox

Cleveland Indians

Detroit Tigers

Minnesota Twins

South

Charlotte Aviators

Kansas City Royals

Tampa Bay Devil Rays

Texas Rangers

West

Las Vegas Diablos

Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim (if that name remains)

Oakland (or San Jose) Athletics

Seattle Mariners

National League

East

New York Mets

Philadelphia Phillies

Pittsburgh Pirates

Washington Nationals

North

Chicago Cubs

Cincinnati Reds

Milwaukee Brewers

St. Louis Cardinals

South

Atlanta Braves

Florida Marlins

Houston Astros

New Orleans Cannons (moving over from Colorado)

West

Arizona Diamondbacks

Los Angeles Dodgers

San Diego Padres

San Francisco Giants

This might work!

[Cujo]

New Orleans Cannons (moving over from Colorado)

LOL

You cannot be serious.

[winghaz]

I kind of like the concept of having AL and NL Expansion and Classic.

But if it were done, Minnesota belongs in Classic (as the original Senators) and Washington belongs in the Expansion (as the Expos).

[B-Rich]

  .....but that division is a scrap heap. Which you get when you have too many divisions. See also: NFC South.

Umm, I don't think so. Hmmm... let's see:

(numbers and crap)

What I meant was, you have the NFC East with its famous Giants-Redskins-Eagles-Cowboys rivalry, you have the NFC Central-now-North with the Bears, Lions, Packers, Vikings all having fierce rivalries with each other, but the NFC South is composed of the Buccaneers, who didn't fit in the Central, the Panthers and Falcons, who didn't belong in the West, and the Saints, who probably don't belong in New Orleans anymore. When you add a division, you have to take teams out of old ones, of course, and generally when you do this, you put a motley assortment of teams with no real history together, which is even worse than Tampa Bay being stuck with the Midwestern teams.

Sorry to take a tangent on the thread (not that it's essentially a complete tangent anyway), but I still must respectfully disagree.

Okay, I'll buy that I misread your meaning of "scrap heap", focusing more on the 'scrap' aspect. However, rather than the leftover scrap heap you describe, the NFC South was something that worked out beautifully for the NFL in terms of appropriateness of team location, rivalries, etc.

Far from "a motley assortment of teams with no real history together", the NFC South took three teams from an established division to start, and added one from the same region that had often played the other two.

Atlanta and New Orleans have had a pretty good rivalry going back more than 35 years (even before the merger put them in the same divisison), and both had begun pretty good rivalries with Carolina for the last ten, since the Panthers entered the league in the 'old' NFC West. In creating the NFC South, the NFL took out the geographically extraneous 49ers and Rams, and replaced them with Tampa Bay, who seemed to play New Orleans and Atlanta just about every year anyway and who were a perfect fit geographically. Preservation of rivalries, geographic compactness-- brilliant.

Sure, the Buccaneers didn't fit in the 'old' NFC Central. After they spent their 1st year in the league as an AFC Central team, they were 'permanently' placed in the NFC Central. They could have just as easily been placed in the NFC West, which probably would have been a better idea with New Orleans and Atlanta already in the division. Carolina and Atlanta didn't belong in the West? And I guess Arizona and the Dallas Cowboys "belonged" in the East. Let's face it, the old NFL alignment was a bit of a joke geographically. If they weren't going to be accurate, they should have stuck with the old quasi-geographical designations they used up to the merger in 1970 (Century, Capital, Coastal, Central). The most recent re-alignment fixed it up a bit, but you still have incongruities such as Dallas in the East but St. Louis in the West (yeah, RIVALRIES, yada yada), and that heart of Dixie, Indianapolis, in the AFC South.

You want a scrap heap? Look at the NFC West. A minority (2/5's) of the 'old' NFC West. A weak team from the 'old' NFC east. And a team from another conference.

And don't get me started on your crack about the Saints probably not belonging in New Orleans any more. Don't parrot what you hear from hack journalists and the talking heads on ESPN; attendance and revenue numbers show the team has been and will remain well-supported. Now that the state has made this year's payment and Benson would have to pay back a cool $81 million to use his exit option, you can expect a stadium deal (brand new or big renovation a' la Chicago or Lambeau) to be worked out during the next off-season.

[JH42XCC]

New Orleans Cannons (moving over from Colorado)

LOL

You cannot be serious.

I AM serious!

[CZzyzx41]

SIX PAGES...and a total of TWO CONCEPTS (BOTH LAS VEGAS)

make with the concepts people!

[dgnmrwrw]

SIX PAGES...and a total of TWO CONCEPTS (BOTH LAS VEGAS)

make with the concepts people!

I'm working on a Charlotte concept, but I posted it here since this became more of a realignment thread.

[Grish]

fyi, the reason the leagues have a different number of teams or to say the leagues have different totals has to do with the idea of unbalanced scheduling.

I like the fact that teams play more games against their division teams then creating equal leagues.

I think you might still consider Portland, Las Vegas, New Jersey as the top three locations for teams if the solution is moving teams from bad markets. Nothing against any one city and of the three I would see NJ as the front runner if they so choose to enter into the bidding market.

I just personally believe if you want even out the playing field you have to split the New York/New Jersey market up into a possible 3 fan groups, then force teams to spend their "salary cap penalty money" given to them by the upper teams on payroll, not allowing the owners to just pocket money and pay nothing to players. This way at least the fans get some benefit too, other then no chance to beat the bigger market clubs.

[The_Admiral]

There is no need for a New Jersey team. If you think it would be hard to convert Portland from the Mariners, or Charlotte from the Braves, how are you going to get Jersey to abandon the Yankees? Or the Phillies and Mets, for that matter? A firm portion of Yankees/Mets territory is no place to expand.

[Grish]

All you have to do is look at market size, if New York/New Jersey where split into 3 then they would have a more reasonable similar market as everyone else in their league. Realistically it still would be that Yankees would still hold the largest share, followed by the Mets and the 3rd team. But in the least you pull market share and TV contracts to more similar numbers, taking away a portion of the Yankee cash cow.

If MLB does not want a cap on teams or to force owners to use their luxury tax recieved towards payroll then you have to split markets to similar sizes to be far to all fans of MLB teams.

My take is that really MLB needs teams like the Yankees, it gives the league a 'bully'. They need to fold Tampa Bay or force the owner to sell, either way TB is a sad situation for league that used to use it as a way to force cities to build stadiums. Hence why now the talk of Las Vegas and Portland have become the buzz, it is a way to feel like teams can be taken from communities regardless of bad ownership.

I would hate to see a salary cap in MLB like the NFL, but players are not staying in a city for their careers either way.

[VitaminD]

All you have to do is look at market size, if New York/New Jersey where split into 3 then they would have a more reasonable similar market as everyone else in their league.

Why the sudden groundswell of support for a 3rd team in metro NY? I fully realize it worked before the Dodgers and Giants went west, but that was 50 years ago, when St. Louis was the westernmost outpost of professional sports and before the demographic shifts that brought Americans out of the northeast and toward the south, southwest and west.

A 3rd team wouldn't automatically divert anything from the Yankees or the Mets. Look how long it took the Devils to establish a fan base in the same area competing with the Rangers and Islanders. And the Devils have won 3 Stanley Cups! This new team would be competing against the wealthiest and winningest team in baseball history, and a 2nd team that has carved out is niche over 40+ years and a World Series title or two.

Outside of Buffalo - which is more Great Lakes than Middle Atlantic - the northeast does not need another team. The New York area has 2 teams that are ardently supported; New Jersey is already split between the two NYC teams and the Phillies to the south; Connecticut is split between the NYC teams and the Red Sox.