MNF - Cowboys @ Eagles

[brinkeguthrie]

Did Tuna get a game ball last night in honor of his late brother?

[yh]

Doesn't anyone here think last night's result was more attributable to Dallas being a pretty good team than Philly falling on hard times?

[WSU151]

I hate to say it but part of me wants Owens back. Did you see Reggie Brown DROP the catch that would of led to an easy GW FG?

To be fair, the ball was knocked out of his hands. Not a bad drop - just a good defensive play.

[Jigga]

They are all getting what they deserve...Owens, McNabb, and the Eagles organization.

[EagleFan344]

Looks like McMahon is going to start against the Giants.

[Jigga]

Looks like McMahon is going to start against the Giants.

Why McMahon instead of Detmer? Injury? "Fit"?

[EagleFan344]

Looks like McMahon is going to start against the Giants.

Why McMahon instead of Detmer? Injury? "Fit"?

Because McMahon is better.

[WJMorris3]

In my opinion, the only reason that Koy Detmer is the backup QB is that he's the holder on field goals and extra points. League rules stipulate that the third quarterback can only play in the fourth quarter, or in an emergency.

[Cujo]

Looks like McMahon is going to start against the Giants.

Why McMahon instead of Detmer? Injury? "Fit"?

Because McMahon is better.

Reid said he wanted to use a mobile QB in that situation, so thats why McMahon was jumped ahead of Detmer and put in.

[VandyDelphia Mike]

I am only now venturing back online after that debacle of an ending.

The game should have never come down to what it came down to, but it did, because late in the game, both Andy Reid and Donovan McNabb absolutely put hand to throat.

You don't go from up 20-7 to down 21-20 in the course of 21 game seconds without making some serious blunders from a strategic standpoint. Not audibling or calling a time out when the Dallas D absoultely knows what play you're running on third & goal from the Dallas 4? Not going for it on fourth and goal from the Dallas 2, instead opting for a 20-yard FG to go up 20-7, when losing the ball on downs would mean Dallas being down 10 and having to go 98 yards for a TD? Going into full prevent mode, then sending the kitchen sink on a blitz?

All those mistakes preface the McNabb INT.

You have to play 60 minutes of football. 60, not 56. The Eagles didn't. This is your end result.

The choke job has nothing to do with Owens. McNabb's a warrior; his recent history shows him as being prone to late, devastating picks. Eagles would be fools to run McNabb out of town, after they've locked him up long-term, and given him what he wanted in jettisoning T.O.

[NJTank]

I agree but I think they should consider shutting McNabb down the rest of the way hes hurting not playing good and I dont think he can get them back this year, its best to shut him down get him healthy for 2006.

[HedleyLamarr]

who put up with racist comments from Rush Limbaugh,

You have got to be kidding me...... Did you even hear a word of what Limbaugh said?

Double Standard my friend, Double Standard

(McNabb is) overrated ... what we have here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback can do well?black coaches and black quarterbacks doing well. There's a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of his team that he didn't deserve. The defense carried this team.

Okay, so the exact same argument (that he receives too much credit for his team's performance) could be made about Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, or Brett Favre, but it isn't. How many other starting QB's have to put up with this kind of racist nonsense? How is race even an issue when we're talking about the success of a quarterback? Could the Eagles have won with Koy Detmer?

McNabb is not overrated. I'd take him on my team.

Anyway, the whole point is that while McNabb could've gone on a tirade about racism in the national media or gotten upset about the whole ordeal, he stayed cool and acted with class that many other athletes just don't have. I respect him for that.

Audio pulled from a local radio show about Rush and ESPN

[Andy]

Audio pulled from a local radio show about Rush and ESPN

"If you find racism in his comments, you're an idiot." --from the radio show

Uh, alright.

I'm not the kind of person to fly off the handle about things being perceived as racist, I'm a pretty level-headed guy, but how is this not a racist comment about Donovan McNabb?

If Rush wanted to make his point about a media bias toward black athletes, he could've made it at any time. "The media has been very desirous for a black QB or black coach to succeed." Sure, it's okay to level claims like this at the media, and this in itself isn't racist. But he then went on to SINGLE OUT Donovan McNabb and claim his success was based solely on the fact that he is the national media's black quarterback poster boy.

How do you even supposed to respond to something like that if you're a starting QB in the NFL? Maybe Rush was gunning for the media with this quote, but they were talking about McNabb at the time. So it still affected him. He implied that Donovan's success in the NFL could be attributed entirely to his race, and that, my friend, is racism.

[VitaminD]

Looks like McMahon is going to start against the Giants.

Why McMahon instead of Detmer? Injury? "Fit"?

Because McMahon is better.

Reid said he wanted to use a mobile QB in that situation, so thats why McMahon was jumped ahead of Detmer and put in.

Detmer also has the arm strength of the average electric eel. And I am a little jealous - he's held onto an NFL job for almost 10 years on the strength of being a good locker room guy and a good holder for David Akers. Small, slow, and no arm - yet there he is.

As for TO - DC, I never said Owens wasn't talented. But that talent comes at too steep a price. He kills teams. Now, to some of your other points:

The Eagles went from contenders with Owens, to finishing last in their division.

CORRECTION! The Eagles were 3-time NFC conference finalists before bringing Owens. Before they brought in Owens, they had just brought in Jevon Kearse to try and shore up the D-line. They were the conference favorites before the season. They were contenders long before Owens got to Philly. They'd had home field advantage the 2 years prior in the playoffs without Owens, so he didn't contribute anything to that end beyond what they'd done without him. He didn't play during the game that got the Eagles a Super Bowl berth, so what's to say they wouldn't have gotten there without him on the roster at all?

And since you brought up the Jets, I'm pretty sure if Owens was playing for them, they sure as hell wouldn't be 2-7.

Why is that? Having Owens wouldn't make Pennington's arm any stronger or healthier, it wouldn't make Vinny Testaverde any younger or faster, and it wouldn't make Brooks Bollinger any better or more experienced. What it WOULD have done is given TO the bully pulpit in the nation's media capital, so he'd have a larger stage from which to throw Herm Edwards, Pennington, Chrebet and the rest under the bus. And guess what else? He'd sulk and whine and moan about not getting the ball as much, and how he wants out to go play with Team X or Quarterback Y. But I'd bet my house that the Jets would STILL not make the playoffs with TO on the team - just more constant disruptions.

More culpable in the Eagles' woes are McNabb's injury, and its aftereffects - refusing to run, less ability to throw well. Also culpable is Andy Reid's inexplicably baffling playcalling. Leaving Westbrook on the sidelines on 4th down v. the 'Skins? Calling a site-adjustment deep out route to a rookie WR while nursing a 3-point lead v. Dallas? The laughable run/pass percentages? The Super Bowl "hurry up" offense? Compared to these factors, TO is relatively minor - though he'd probably tell you otherwise.

The team is worse in the short term, naturally - you don't replace 1400 yards, 100 catches and dozens of TDs with guys from NFL Europe or the practice squad. But it'll be better in the long run (which is exactly what I said before), since the team's black cloud is no longer hanging overhead, the 24/7 media crush has lost its focus, and the team can go back to being an actual team with one agenda and no circus sideshows. They'll always have cap room, and they'll find someone who's a talented receiver and NOT a prima donna.

As for better WR... Harrison, Chad Johnson, Steve Smith are; Larry Fitzgerald will be. But if you want him, you can have him. Brinke and I will even hold a seat for you and the Jets fans at the "TO Done Us Wrong Saloon" once he torches your boys.

[WSU151]

Okay, so the exact same argument (that he receives too much credit for his team's performance) could be made about Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, or Brett Favre, but it isn't. How many other starting QB's have to put up with this kind of racist nonsense? How is race even an issue when we're talking about the success of a quarterback? Could the Eagles have won with Koy Detmer?

McNabb is not overrated. I'd take him on my team.

------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not the kind of person to fly off the handle about things being perceived as racist, I'm a pretty level-headed guy, but how is this not a racist comment about Donovan McNabb?

If Rush wanted to make his point about a media bias toward black athletes, he could've made it at any time. "The media has been very desirous for a black QB or black coach to succeed." Sure, it's okay to level claims like this at the media, and this in itself isn't racist. But he then went on to SINGLE OUT Donovan McNabb and claim his success was based solely on the fact that he is the national media's black quarterback poster boy.

How do you even supposed to respond to something like that if you're a starting QB in the NFL? Maybe Rush was gunning for the media with this quote, but they were talking about McNabb at the time. So it still affected him. He implied that Donovan's success in the NFL could be attributed entirely to his race, and that, my friend, is racism.

Read Rush's comments again. You're inferring things that are not there. He didn't imply that McNabb's success attributed to his race, but rather all of his stardom. There is a difference, and when you are talking about racism, it's a WORLD of difference. McNabb at the time was a successful quarterback...his race didn't determine how successful he was because he would still be winning games if he was white or black. But was he worthy of all the praise and endrosements??? Or were there other factors to his success? Hmmmmm.

Rush says that McNabb shouldn't get ALL the credit he deserves because McNabb had a great defense behind him...that is true...it's not racist. Rush says that the media is "desirous" for a black quarterback to succeed (the same way they are desirous of black coaches to succeed), and that McNabb's level of play is sometimes overrated, which is true. Sometimes the truth hurts, and Rush essentially said that the media shouldn't make McNabb out to be a superstar if he's not quite there (remember this was 2003), if the only reason for the hype is because he's black.

It's not racist.

See Michael Vick. He's exciting, he's a great personality (well, sort of), so the media hope he succeeds. But he's not nearly as good as people make him out to be. He's a Sportscenter creation. God forbid that someone actually says that though. I'm sure you'd cry racism as well.

As far your take on Tom Brady, Big Ben, and Favre, I disagree. There are a number of circles full of people who think Brady really isn't that good, but he won because of his defense and kicker. And I've heard that he won two Super Bowl MVPs basically becuase there wasn't anyone else to choose from. Big Ben gets praised because the guy has lost one game. One game. Once he starts losing more (due to him throwing more) I'm sure you'll hear that Big Ben was certainly helped by his defense and running game more than anyone thought (if you haven't heard that already). And Favre has been blasted again and again by media critics. No need to get into that.

And my final point is that if it was a black guy saying that all three of those white quarterbacks are overrated because of other dominant parts of the team, then I'd probably agree with him. It's not racist. It's being level headed in a micro sense and realizing that all the success may not have rested on one guy's arm.

Remember, what I get from Rush's comments is that he's not criticizing success, but rather criticizing how much stardom someone gets because of an obscene amount of hype that is placed on the player.

[Andy]

Read Rush's comments again.  You're inferring things that are not there.  He didn't imply that McNabb's success attributed to his race, but rather all of his stardom.

Remember, what I get from Rush's comments is that he's not criticizing success, but rather criticizing how much stardom someone gets because of an obscene amount of hype that is placed on the player.

(McNabb is) overrated ... what we have here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback can do well?black coaches and black quarterbacks doing well. There's a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of his team that he didn't deserve. The defense carried this team.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that Rush is implying that a black quarterback can't succeed in the NFL without the hype of the national media.

Anyway, I won't argue about this anymore because the point is that Donovan McNabb overcomes ridiculous comments like this (racist or not, you decide) with class.

[Jigga]

It's not racist.

That's BULL$H!T...

Sorry, WSU, what Rush Limbaugh said was racist. Being critical of McNabb, Vick, or any other Black players, or Black coaches, etc. because of poor performance or just because you think they are overrated is not racist, in and of itself. However, saying that the media are (media is plural, by the way) desirous to see a Black quarterback or coach succeed is fluffing racist as all hell. Just because McNabb and Vick are Black does not mean that any criticism of them is racist, but when you group and entire race together and imply that their success is the creation of a supportive media, is that not racist? I don't see how you can't call it racism, but maybe you don't know what racism is. Not all racism is the blatant, cross burning, shouting the n-word, lynching, type of stuff you hear about in history. I would be glad to give you (or anyone else) a few examples I have to deal with every fluffing day if you want some real life cases...just trying to help.

[WSU151]

I hear ya, fellas...I just happen to disagree this one time.

I had a big long counterpoint, but I don't want this to blow up.

I read Rush's comments one way, and apparently I'm missing the racism in that quote because I don't think Rush was denying any of McNabb's success because of his color. Rush didn't say "McNabb is overrated and shouldn't have any success because he's black". I read that Rush thinks McNabb simply wasn't as good as people made him out to be during the early parts of 2003 as well as years prior...McNabb hadn't lived up to the hype.

I could be wrong, and if there is blatent racism in Limbaugh's comment, then I hope I am wrong.

[Jigga]

The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback can do well?black coaches and black quarterbacks doing well

There's the racist part...and free of charge to the general public. Again, it doesn't have to be vicious, blantant statements of White supremacy to be racist.

[TLChandler]

I have looked over Rush Limbaugh's comments a few times and have not found them racist. He was being blunt, the media does want to see black quarterbacks and coaches succeed. That's it. It's not his belief, it's the truth. What he said was harsh and hard to handle, thats why he was donned the 'racist' tag. He didn't put down or harm the black race in any way by what he said, he simply said McNabb is over rated because his team is great because of their strong defense, and he gets a lot of the credit for the success that should go to the defense.

The same exact things could be said about Tom Brady. The Patriots are a great football team, and Brady is idolized in everything he does. The media idolizes him cause he's the poster child of a good player with no problems off the field. The NE defense is dominant, and that's why they have been so good. Tom Brady gets more credit for New England than the whole team put together does, exactly the same thing that happens to Donovan.

I do not believe Rush Limbaugh is racist, and I myself am not racist. I believe what Rush said was true and he should not be deemed racist. While his firing was fair, as it was merely for PR because people seem to take his comments out of context.