Vick indicted

[Island_Style]

You can't compare a dog to a cow. With that logic you better never slap a mosquito, killing a living thing. Cows and pigs just walk around, waiting to get slaughtered. Dogs can act as a blind man's eyes, sniff out a bomb, find survivors in a pile of rubble, catch a criminal, or just be a companion. There is absolutley no comparison in that.

[Audiodrama]

Funny illustration posted over at wwtdd.com:

[ProvidenceRI]

Point is, Dogs have personality and people love that about them. They have loyalty, courage, humor..... Pigs don't quite have that, cows neither.... it's easier t eat things that we really don't care about.

Have you ever been around pigs? Or cows? All animals have personality. People have pigs, goats, rats and cats as pets.

Everybody's comments have been subjective because you "like" dogs.

I'm asking people to look at the facts: people abuse and kill animals daily. Mick Vick objectively trained, abused and killed animals.

[ProvidenceRI]

You can't compare a dog to a cow. With that logic you better never slap a mosquito, killing a living thing. Cows and pigs just walk around, waiting to get slaughtered. Dogs can act as a blind man's eyes, sniff out a bomb, find survivors in a pile of rubble, catch a criminal, or just be a companion. There is absolutley no comparison in that.

50 years ago people said you can't compare "negros" to "white folk".

No life is above another, in my opinion.

[ProvidenceRI]

Every meat eater who believes Vick is a criminal is a hypocrite.

If Vick wants to fight and kill dogs, he should be able to, just like Farmer Joe can box up and kill baby cows for veal.

For someone who claims to point out the lack of logic in the discussion here, you fail to notice the glaring absence of it from this statement.

There is 100% logic in my statement.

If person A wants to kill animal A, then person B should be allowed to kill animal B.

It doesn't matter what the animal is, or who the person is. Animals are not protected in the Constitution.

[ProvidenceRI]

Raising animals for food and killing them by hanging them from a cord on the ceiling, holding them underwater until they drown and electrocuting them is far different. When you go to kill a cow, you don't torture it to in death. In the United States, a law exists wherein all animals processed at a slaughter house must be rendered unconscious before being killed. is it totally cruelty free? No, the animal still dies. But the animal isn't tortured and doesn't suffer when the time comes.

The law exists but slaughter houses do not follow it. Not even kosher slaughter houses!

Tell me this isn't torture:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fjSlOOYIkCE

Why aren't people protesting this?

[leopard88]

It doesn't matter what the animal is, or who the person is. Animals are not protected in the Constitution.

That is correct. However, certain animals are protected from certain actions under local, state and/or federal statutes. Dogfighting and the torture and abuse of animals for, effectively, sport are among the prohibited actions.

Farmer Joe can lawfully slaughter and butcher his calves if he wants to (intentional word choice, by the way, but not meant to promote any agenda). On the other hand, Michael Vick cannot lawfully maim, harm or torture his dogs. For better or worse, that difference reflects the value judgments society has made as a whole. If you believe those value judgments should be changed, there are ways to attempt to do that. However, I don't think you will have much luck doing so in this thread.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

Why aren't people protesting this?

For the same reason people don't protest the war, lack of adequate health care for all citizens, corporate malfeasance, and grossly unfair farm subsidies: Cable television. The couch provides too many entertainment options to care about anything important.

Factory slaughter isn't pretty by any means (and I say this without watching your video. I'd like to eat lunch today -- a muffin -- thank you very much). But I think you need to make a separation between slaughter animals basically raised as crops versus the willful torture of another animal. Is there any real difference between sending a cow down a conveyor belt to be sliced and diced and Mike Vick drowning and electrocuting his dogs after he just pit them against one another? I can see it both ways. But I think a blanket condemnation of hypocrisy goes a bit far.

Are we inherently bad people for buying sweatshop-made products, be they dishware, clothing, or electronics? Are we inherently bad people for purchasing tomatoes from the grocery store picked by an exploited illegal immigrant? It's the same argument you're making for eating regular meat we buy at the supermarket, and I just don't think that's a fair moral argument.

[Lee.]

Why aren't people protesting this?

For the same reason people don't protest the war, lack of adequate health care for all citizens, corporate malfeasance, and grossly unfair farm subsidies: Cable television. The couch provides too many entertainment options to care about anything important.

Factory slaughter isn't pretty by any means (and I say this without watching your video. I'd like to eat lunch today -- a muffin -- thank you very much). But I think you need to make a separation between slaughter animals basically raised as crops versus the willful torture of another animal. Is there any real difference between sending a cow down a conveyor belt to be sliced and diced and Mike Vick drowning and electrocuting his dogs after he just pit them against one another? I can see it both ways. But I think a blanket condemnation of hypocrisy goes a bit far.

Are we inherently bad people for buying sweatshop-made products, be they dishware, clothing, or electronics? Are we inherently bad people for purchasing tomatoes from the grocery store picked by an exploited illegal immigrant? It's the same argument you're making for eating regular meat we buy at the supermarket, and I just don't think that's a fair moral argument.

In a rare display, I agree completely with Gitlin. Beef, pork, chicken, etc....are all basically crops. These animals are bred for meat and other consumer-oriented uses (dairy. leather, gelatin, etc), and so can basically be lumped into other items meant for human consumption.

Dogs aren't. Dogs are essentially a companion animal, and as such, we treat them as such (sometimes too much, as witnessed by the women who insist on dragging their litter with them to the :censored:ing Home Depot, lugging them around in the cart, leaving no room for the items they ostensibly came to purchase).

I will say, though, for someone who originally brought this up to play Devil's Advocate, you certainly seem to be looking to turn this into a personal crusade.

[DDR]

Every meat eater who believes Vick is a criminal is a hypocrite.

If Vick wants to fight and kill dogs, he should be able to, just like Farmer Joe can box up and kill baby cows for veal.

For someone who claims to point out the lack of logic in the discussion here, you fail to notice the glaring absence of it from this statement.

There is 100% logic in my statement.

If person A wants to kill animal A, then person B should be allowed to kill animal B.

It doesn't matter what the animal is, or who the person is. Animals are not protected in the Constitution.

The logic is there, but I think it's misapplied. Perhaps it's a fine line, but it's a line nonetheless: The purpose of eating meat is sustenance. The purpose of fighting and killing dogs is a horrible brand of entertainment. Now, there is the argument that there are other options for food than animals. True. But, nearly every society in the history of the world has eaten animals, and many animals eat other animals. So, the fact that someone might be morally opposed to eating meat is fine and I see your logic. But calling meat eaters hypocrites is a reach at best.

With that said, I only eat cage free farm fresh eggs that I get from my friend's rooster, Little Jerry.

[Lee.]

I only eat cage free farm fresh eggs that I get from my friend's rooster, Little Jerry.

Hens lay eggs, not roosters.

[DDR]

I only eat cage free farm fresh eggs that I get from my friend's rooster, Little Jerry.

Hens lay eggs, not roosters.

He's right, kids. But, I hope somebody got the reference at least.

[Audiodrama]

I only eat cage free farm fresh eggs that I get from my friend's rooster, Little Jerry.

Hens lay eggs, not roosters.

He's right, kids. But, I hope somebody got the reference at least.

I might get the reference if you agree to take down that bounced clown check.

[rams80]

Point is, Dogs have personality and people love that about them. They have loyalty, courage, humor..... Pigs don't quite have that, cows neither.... it's easier t eat things that we really don't care about.

Have you ever been around pigs? Or cows? All animals have personality. People have pigs, goats, rats and cats as pets.

Everybody's comments have been subjective because you "like" dogs.

I'm asking people to look at the facts: people abuse and kill animals daily. Mick Vick objectively trained, abused and killed animals.

Does Farmer Brown train his cows to fight each other for money and because it's cool to watch bovines locked in mortal combat; then takes the loser, slaughters it via drowning/electrocution (assuming not already dead) and sells it's meat at the local supermarket?

No. He raises it, slaughters it when ready, and sells the meat (or keeps it as food). He then hops on the combine and harvests the corn that he was growing in the field, and sells it or keeps it as food. See what we're getting at?

The folks who say cows, pigs, chickens, etc. are essentially raised as crops in this country are right on the money. The livestock are doomed to be slaughtered for the food of others, and I'm sure the conditions in such things as mega hog farms are not condusive for animals having a good life. However, it is done so people can eat and survive. With the exceptions of those who like Korean and Chinese cuisine, though, dog is not on the menu. Since the laws in this country are written by those who probably do not dine on dog, but think dogs are pets/companions/friends, that is why Vick is facing cruelty to animals charges.

[Jigga]

Hens lay eggs, not roosters.

Of course hens lay roosters, how do you think they make the eggs?

[DG_ThenNowForever]

And just to toot my own horn, my family back home has decided to raise chickens. Even though I'm home at most two weeks a year, those two weeks will be full of cage-free, fresh brown eggs and I couldn't be happier.

[leopard88]

Hens lay eggs, not roosters.

Of course hens lay roosters, how do you think they make the eggs?

Actually, I'm pretty sure they can make eggs without laying roosters. The laying roosters part is for fertilizing the eggs.

Keep in my mind that I'm one generation removed from the farming side of my family (my mom drove a tractor and hay truck at age 12, not me -- I just gathered corn, tomatoes, peas and green beans from my grandfather's 1/2 acre "garden" and sold them by the road for him). However, I think that's how it works.

[zer0dotcom]

And just to toot my own horn, my family back home has decided to raise chickens. Even though I'm home at most two weeks a year, those two weeks will be full of cage-free, fresh brown eggs and I couldn't be happier.

My current boss has a chicken coupe and sells eggs by the dozen. Best eggs I've ever eaten.

and as for the whole CCSLC one man PETA crusade, it;s not a rational argument anymore. He just wants to start and raise hell under the banner of a Devil's Advocate. Sometimes I like to play the DA just to be on the other side of the argument with my buddies, try to poke holes in their story. Part of playing the DA is knowing when to quit.

You want a straight shot of why there's a double standard between Dogs and farm animals? Dogs are cute, fluffy, loyal, trainable and don't fry up well.

Ever try to get a steak out of a Chiwawa?

Cows are slow, very large, produce large amounts of crap and methane, produce milk and dairy, and make some good ground beef.

You get more for you mile out of a cow. Unfortunately, until the cows rise up against us their stuck at the bottom of the food chain. (or until PETA manages to actually change popular opinion, they have a better chance of jumping over the moon...or was that the cow?)

[infrared41]

Why aren't people protesting this?

For the same reason people don't protest the war, lack of adequate health care for all citizens, corporate malfeasance, and grossly unfair farm subsidies: Cable television. The couch provides too many entertainment options to care about anything important.

Factory slaughter isn't pretty by any means (and I say this without watching your video. I'd like to eat lunch today -- a muffin -- thank you very much). But I think you need to make a separation between slaughter animals basically raised as crops versus the willful torture of another animal. Is there any real difference between sending a cow down a conveyor belt to be sliced and diced and Mike Vick drowning and electrocuting his dogs after he just pit them against one another? I can see it both ways. But I think a blanket condemnation of hypocrisy goes a bit far.

Are we inherently bad people for buying sweatshop-made products, be they dishware, clothing, or electronics? Are we inherently bad people for purchasing tomatoes from the grocery store picked by an exploited illegal immigrant? It's the same argument you're making for eating regular meat we buy at the supermarket, and I just don't think that's a fair moral argument.

Well said Dsgitlin. I couldn't agree more, especially with the opening paragraph which I think best illustrates your argument. You can see it in the "either or" mentality that is so prevalent in this particular debate as well as many others. The "couch" has not only turned society into apathetic sheep, the couch makes people color blind in the sense that there is never a gray area in a debate. It's all "either or." People have lost the ability to think past the black and white of an issue. Anyone who bothers to take the next step can see that the comparisons here between market cows and Vick's dogs is comparing apples and oranges. Both are fruit both are round. Both are animals. Both are killed. The similarities end there. Unfortunately today, most critical thinking stops after the initial comparison as well.

There is 100% logic in my statement.

If person A wants to kill animal A, then person B should be allowed to kill animal B.

It doesn't matter what the animal is, or who the person is. Animals are not protected in the Constitution.

Providence RI claims perfect logic his statement. First off his logic is not anywhere near perfect and second it perfectly illustrates his unwillingness to address the salient details of the actual debate. He breaks it down to simply killing an animal. He has to because his logic won't withstand scrutiny any other way. Even if we grant the premise of his argument his logic still doesn't hold up. By definition people are animals too. The most evolved of all mammals. So using his logic since person A (let's say Hitler in this case) wants to kill animal A (say Jewish people) it should be OK for person B (let's say Saddam Hussein) to kill person B ( Kurds or Sunnies or whomever.) Based on ProvidenceRI's logic neither Hitler or Hussein were wrong in what they did.

The next step would be for Providence to use the "people are different" argument. Just to show how flawed his "logic" really is I'll grant him that people are "above" animals. We'll take personality out of the equation. We'll simply look at what's legal. Again using the same "logic", since it's legal to slaughter cows why is it illegal to kill dogs? What's the difference? they're both merely animals. Fair enough. So why do we condemn Hitler or Hussein? What they did was "legal" in their countries. We condemn it because unless we are die hard believers in cultural relativism, we believe that there are things that are just wrong no matter how many "logical" arguments can be made to show otherwise. I can logically argue that we can't prove this board exists. I think it's fair to say that most of us agree that it does in fact exist.

That's why Vick killing and torturing animals that didn't perform isn't the same as cows being slaughtered for food. Some things are just wrong. What he did says more about Vick than it does about us not being able determine beyond a doubt that he was wrong in doing it. In the end the dude still did some :censored:ed up things to some animals. If it's simply a matter of disposing of the animal there are far more humane ways to do it.

[PeytonManningRocks]

Looks like Vick has been suspended indefinitely without pay. Just saw it on SportsCenter.