Marlins ditching teal in new color scheme

[Anubis2051]

However, the Rays have become a legit franchise. Carl Crawford happened in the '99 draft, B.J. Upton happened in the '02 draft, Evan Longoria happened in the '06 draft, Carlos Peña signing happened in 2007, 2008 happened, and the best record in the majors is happening now. They're the poster team for building through your farm system and delaying immediate gratification for future long-term success. If they win a World Series, I think the fanbase will grow exponentially.

TIED for the best record in baseball

And everyone said all the team needed was a few winning seasons to grow the fanbase, and they're still drawing flies. North Jersey would be a much better location for the team. Portland or Vancouver wouldn't be bad either.

[The_Admiral]

Gotta believe North Jersey is well accounted for.

[Lights Out]

TIED for the best record in baseball

Yeah, yeah. Playing crappy, talentless teams like the Astros will do that for you. At least the Marlins are semi-decent.

And everyone said all the team needed was a few winning seasons to grow the fanbase, and they're still drawing flies.

Attendance is improving, you can't deny that. A World Series title would hasten the growth, though.

North Jersey would be a much better location for the team. Portland or Vancouver wouldn't be bad either.

New Jersey has too many team loyalties already - it's Mets, Yankees, AND Phillies country there.

[SilverNRed]

False. The Nationals had a great team in 2005, but collapsed in August. And last time I checked, Soriano, Zimmerman and Dunn were quite exciting to watch.

The 2005 Nats got off to a great start and were a nice story that couldn't last. And while I agree that Soriano, Zimmerman, and Dunn are good players, I wouldn't call them "exciting." They were just good players on a bad team. Strasburg is the most exciting new player since Ichiro. His last AAA games in Rochester and Buffalo were near sell-outs (I think Rochester actually did sell out), and his first two MLB starts were both on national TV. People will attend games just for him. He's that big of a deal.

Plus, over the last 5 years, the Nats have averaged almost 2.2 million fans per season, while the Marlins have averaged 1.4 million and the Rays 1.5 million. The reason people don't show up in DC is because they don't win...and the fact that they have a crap ownership group that doesn't know how to attract fans properly.

Here is a link to MLB attendance: http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance

It's not as cut and dry as the Florida teams being terrible. The Marlins attendance IS horrible, but they're getting their new stadium. The Rays are 22nd in attendance, averaging 1,000 less fans per game than the White Sox (who play in a great sports town and have over 100 years of history) and are ahead of Washington and Cincinnati. Just imagine if they had a stadium that was actually fun to go to, or even just a good place to see a baseball game on a nice day.

But every city has a different situation - for example, the Mets averaged 10,000 fewer fans in their first season at Citi Field and this year, the team has their lowest attendance average since 2004. I've never heard anyone complain about that.

Every city really IS different and that's the main thing to remember. What team led the American League in attendance for the 1980's? Believe it or not, the California Angels. Fast forward to 2000 and the Anaheim Angels are being considered for contraction. Fast forward just a few years after that and they're one of the top teams in baseball. There's an ebb and flow to this stuff, and it's never as simple as "There are no fans there, baseball can't work in [insert city]."

[dahatman]

The Marlins attendance is terrible and two years after moving into the new stadium it will be terrible again. The Marlins are branding themselves as a Miami team and not a three county team. So the marketing is poor. Back in the late 80's when baseball began looking into expansion then Commissioner Ueberroth stated that only Orlando would be suitable location for a franchise. Maybe he was right. As for relocation, where would they go? Buffalo, San Antonio, Portland, Charlotte, all of either too small of a market or do not have the political will to finance a stadium.

Both team are on their respective markets for the long haul; stadium or not.

[BBTV]

Here is a link to MLB attendance: http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance

It's not as cut and dry as the Florida teams being terrible. The Marlins attendance IS horrible, but they're getting their new stadium. The Rays are 22nd in attendance, averaging 1,000 less fans per game than the White Sox (who play in a great sports town and have over 100 years of history) and are ahead of Washington and Cincinnati. Just imagine if they had a stadium that was actually fun to go to, or even just a good place to see a baseball game on a nice day.

Comparing them to the White Sox isn't really accurate, especially while only telling half of the story. While they are over 100 years old, and Chicago is a great sports town, from what I can gather (based on my trips to Chicago, reading this board, and listening to the media... yeah, I know) the White Sox are really a "niche" team, and don't really have the following of the whole city. They're kind of like a small-market team embedded in a huge market... kind of like Andorra, or the Vatican. For your statement to really be accurate, you'd have to be comparing the Rays to the Cubs.

[Anubis2051]

TIED for the best record in baseball

Yeah, yeah. Playing crappy, talentless teams like the Astros will do that for you. At least the Marlins are semi-decent.

Please, the Ray's haven't had a difficult stretch all year.

And everyone said all the team needed was a few winning seasons to grow the fanbase, and they're still drawing flies.

Attendance is improving, you can't deny that. A World Series title would hasten the growth, though.

By what? 1,000 per game? Flies still. They didn't even sell out for every PLAYOFF game last year. The only thing that has a shot of saving baseball in Tampa is a new stadium, and even that isn't a guarantee. Baseball is popular down there, only problem is the Yankees are the most popular team.

North Jersey would be a much better location for the team. Portland or Vancouver wouldn't be bad either.

New Jersey has too many team loyalties already - it's Mets, Yankees, AND Phillies country there.

The Phillies are isolated in the south, I live in Princeton and even here its almost 100% Yankees, Mets, Giants, Jets, etc. And I'm not denying that it would be hard, BUT if the team can manage to be more affordable than the Yanks and Mets, they'll draw incredibly well in a very baseball hungry market. And they'll be guaranteed 6 sellouts a year when they play the other two NY teams. And I have a feeling with a new team, a lot of fans might root for multiple teams, at least for a little while. I mean, I'm a die hard Yanks fan, but I would root for an NJ team, maybe even pick up a small season ticket plan, especially if they were in the National League. And I'm sure MSG would snap up the TV rights in a heartbeat.

[IceCap]

There are plenty of good reasons to argue against the Rays' continued existence in the Tampa Bay area. "I'm a Yankees fan and I want to see them destroyed because they're divisional rivals" isn't one of them.

Likewise there's a handful of viable relocation options for the Rays. North New Jersey isn't one of them. Your "they're guaranteed sellouts when they play the New York teams" argument is weak because they get that in Tampa Bay as-is.

[powersurge]

There are plenty of good reasons to argue against the Rays' continued existence in the Tampa Bay area. "I'm a Yankees fan and I want to see them destroyed because they're divisional rivals" isn't one of them.

Likewise there's a handful of viable relocation options for the Rays. North New Jersey isn't one of them. Your "they're guaranteed sellouts when they play the New York teams" argument is weak because they get that in Tampa Bay as-is.

As much as I don't want the Rays to move I find it tough to validate a team that is that good to continue to stay in city while receiving the lack of support that is currently being given to them. I know the stadium sucks, but its not so bad that people can't show up and support the team. I mean c'mon...the Twins played in the Metrodome for how many years but still had support? The Mets played in a $hitty ballpark too and still had fan support as well. I just hope that they Rays fans don't fall victim to what happened to the Hartford Whaler fans: i.e. team moves to another region and wins a title a couple of years after. I can guarantee that it'll suck big time. There's nothing worse then watching your team win a title in another town...I can attest to that.

[Anubis2051]

There are plenty of good reasons to argue against the Rays' continued existence in the Tampa Bay area. "I'm a Yankees fan and I want to see them destroyed because they're divisional rivals" isn't one of them.

Likewise there's a handful of viable relocation options for the Rays. North New Jersey isn't one of them. Your "they're guaranteed sellouts when they play the New York teams" argument is weak because they get that in Tampa Bay as-is.

As much as I don't want the Rays to move I find it tough to validate a team that is that good to continue to stay in city while receiving the lack of support that is currently being given to them. I know the stadium sucks, but its not so bad that people can't show up and support the team. I mean c'mon...the Twins played in the Metrodome for how many years but still had support? The Mets played in a $hitty ballpark too and still had fan support as well. I just hope that they Rays fans don't fall victim to what happened to the Hartford Whaler fans: i.e. team moves to another region and wins a title a couple of years after. I can guarantee that it'll suck big time. There's nothing worse then watching your team win a title in another town...I can attest to that.

The A's still got support in the Mausoleum when they were playing good ball.

And talk of a team in NJ was being talked about as recently as late December:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Talk-of-a-third-baseball-team-in-New-York-rises-;_ylt=AlCpXJy3EfVEJTvO9Ljz0BkRvLYF?urn=mlb,211087

And claiming that the reason I want them moved because they're division rivals is bull. I think they should be in Jersey, they'd still be in the east!

[IceCap]

You yourself said the area is solidly behind New York teams. There's no market for a third team. Mets and Yankees fans won't give up being Mets and Yankees fans. Moving from Tampa to northern New Jersey would be moving from one bad market to another. Like Tampa in New Jersey you have fans who are already loyal to another team. Like Tampa in New Jersey you have a situation where sellouts are only guaranteed when OTHER teams come to play.

It looks like Tampa's not going to work as a MLB market. I won't disagree there. Moving them to New Jersey, however, is one of the most terrible ideas I've ever heard. It's on par with saying MLB needs another team in Chicago.

[The_Admiral]

We're out of places to put major league teams. Montreal would've been a nice option if Major League Baseball didn't see fit to completely destroy its own sport on the way out.

[dgthree]

There are plenty of good reasons to argue against the Rays' continued existence in the Tampa Bay area. "I'm a Yankees fan and I want to see them destroyed because they're divisional rivals" isn't one of them.

Likewise there's a handful of viable relocation options for the Rays. North New Jersey isn't one of them. Your "they're guaranteed sellouts when they play the New York teams" argument is weak because they get that in Tampa Bay as-is.

As much as I don't want the Rays to move I find it tough to validate a team that is that good to continue to stay in city while receiving the lack of support that is currently being given to them. I know the stadium sucks, but its not so bad that people can't show up and support the team. I mean c'mon...the Twins played in the Metrodome for how many years but still had support? The Mets played in a $hitty ballpark too and still had fan support as well. I just hope that they Rays fans don't fall victim to what happened to the Hartford Whaler fans: i.e. team moves to another region and wins a title a couple of years after. I can guarantee that it'll suck big time. There's nothing worse then watching your team win a title in another town...I can attest to that.

The A's still got support in the Mausoleum when they were playing good ball.

And talk of a team in NJ was being talked about as recently as late December:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Talk-of-a-third-baseball-team-in-New-York-rises-;_ylt=AlCpXJy3EfVEJTvO9Ljz0BkRvLYF?urn=mlb,211087

And claiming that the reason I want them moved because they're division rivals is bull. I think they should be in Jersey, they'd still be in the east!

as late as late january.

http://www.nesn.com/2010/01/tampa-bay-rays-moving-to-southern-connecticut-or-new-jersey.html

[tubby34]

WTF is there TB talk in a Marlins Logo Discussion thread? jebus.

[BBTV]

You yourself said the area is solidly behind New York teams. There's no market for a third team. Mets and Yankees fans won't give up being Mets and Yankees fans. Moving from Tampa to northern New Jersey would be moving from one bad market to another. Like Tampa in New Jersey you have fans who are already loyal to another team. Like Tampa in New Jersey you have a situation where sellouts are only guaranteed when OTHER teams come to play.

It looks like Tampa's not going to work as a MLB market. I won't disagree there. Moving them to New Jersey, however, is one of the most terrible ideas I've ever heard. It's on par with saying MLB needs another team in Chicago.

Actually, while I don't think it's a good idea, I don't think it's the worst idea. It's one of those things that will absolutely NOT have instant success, but could, over time, have tremendous up side. Kids growing up in the North Jersey burbs who either follow the team since they were young, or get their drivers licenses and instead of driving or training it to NY for the NYY or NYM, just drive to the New Jersey Rays game because it's close, then get sold on it even more, then raise their kids as Rays fans, etc. There are certainly enough people to support a third team, it just takes a generation or two to get past the existing loyalties.

[SilverNRed]

By what? 1,000 per game? Flies still. They didn't even sell out for every PLAYOFF game last year. The only thing that has a shot of saving baseball in Tampa is a new stadium, and even that isn't a guarantee. Baseball is popular down there, only problem is the Yankees are the most popular team.

I'm no expert, but I'm thinking the reason the Rays couldn't sell out a playoff game last year is that they didn't play any playoff games last year.

[SilverNRed]

You yourself said the area is solidly behind New York teams. There's no market for a third team. Mets and Yankees fans won't give up being Mets and Yankees fans. Moving from Tampa to northern New Jersey would be moving from one bad market to another. Like Tampa in New Jersey you have fans who are already loyal to another team. Like Tampa in New Jersey you have a situation where sellouts are only guaranteed when OTHER teams come to play.

It looks like Tampa's not going to work as a MLB market. I won't disagree there. Moving them to New Jersey, however, is one of the most terrible ideas I've ever heard. It's on par with saying MLB needs another team in Chicago.

Actually, while I don't think it's a good idea, I don't think it's the worst idea. It's one of those things that will absolutely NOT have instant success, but could, over time, have tremendous up side. Kids growing up in the North Jersey burbs who either follow the team since they were young, or get their drivers licenses and instead of driving or training it to NY for the NYY or NYM, just drive to the New Jersey Rays game because it's close, then get sold on it even more, then raise their kids as Rays fans, etc. There are certainly enough people to support a third team, it just takes a generation or two to get past the existing loyalties.

Which means after about 5 or 10 years, the "experts" on this board will declare the whole thing a failure and a joke and demand the team be moved again.

[The_Admiral]

Do you seriously think the Mets, the Yankees, and the city of New York would let the Rays move into their backyard after they just spent billions of dollars on new parks? This Jersey thing is as moot as moot can be.

[IceCap]

You yourself said the area is solidly behind New York teams. There's no market for a third team. Mets and Yankees fans won't give up being Mets and Yankees fans. Moving from Tampa to northern New Jersey would be moving from one bad market to another. Like Tampa in New Jersey you have fans who are already loyal to another team. Like Tampa in New Jersey you have a situation where sellouts are only guaranteed when OTHER teams come to play.

It looks like Tampa's not going to work as a MLB market. I won't disagree there. Moving them to New Jersey, however, is one of the most terrible ideas I've ever heard. It's on par with saying MLB needs another team in Chicago.

Actually, while I don't think it's a good idea, I don't think it's the worst idea. It's one of those things that will absolutely NOT have instant success, but could, over time, have tremendous up side. Kids growing up in the North Jersey burbs who either follow the team since they were young, or get their drivers licenses and instead of driving or training it to NY for the NYY or NYM, just drive to the New Jersey Rays game because it's close, then get sold on it even more, then raise their kids as Rays fans, etc. There are certainly enough people to support a third team, it just takes a generation or two to get past the existing loyalties.

Wasn't that the line peddled by the folks who angled for a team in Tampa in the first place (sans the "third team" of course)?

"Sure most of the fans in the area are transplanted Yankees, Mets, and Red Sox fans, but just give it time. It'll just take a generation or two to get past the existing loyalties."

[southpawstu19]

You yourself said the area is solidly behind New York teams. There's no market for a third team. Mets and Yankees fans won't give up being Mets and Yankees fans. Moving from Tampa to northern New Jersey would be moving from one bad market to another. Like Tampa in New Jersey you have fans who are already loyal to another team. Like Tampa in New Jersey you have a situation where sellouts are only guaranteed when OTHER teams come to play.

It looks like Tampa's not going to work as a MLB market. I won't disagree there. Moving them to New Jersey, however, is one of the most terrible ideas I've ever heard. It's on par with saying MLB needs another team in Chicago.

Actually, while I don't think it's a good idea, I don't think it's the worst idea. It's one of those things that will absolutely NOT have instant success, but could, over time, have tremendous up side. Kids growing up in the North Jersey burbs who either follow the team since they were young, or get their drivers licenses and instead of driving or training it to NY for the NYY or NYM, just drive to the New Jersey Rays game because it's close, then get sold on it even more, then raise their kids as Rays fans, etc. There are certainly enough people to support a third team, it just takes a generation or two to get past the existing loyalties.

Wasn't that the line peddled by the folks who angled for a team in Tampa in the first place (sans the "third team" of course)?

"Sure most of the fans in the area are transplanted Yankees, Mets, and Red Sox fans, but just give it time. It'll just take a generation or two to get past the existing loyalties."

i am a native of south florida, and i grew up a mets fan because thats where my family was from and the marlins were not here for the first 8 years of my life. each one of my friends who are my age and younger are big marlins fans and i see this trend continuing both here and in tampa bay. no one here likes that at each game against northern teams has a 50/50 split of fans. within 20 years you will see many more loyal fans to the team. hell the marlins are getting a very very nice new stadium. not to mention both cities are able to sustain a substantial fan base for their football teams and can, with time, gain enough to sell out baseball games (given the teams do not suck each year). it is just hard to compare the baseball clubs in boston, or ny to teams who came into the league 100 years later. lets see what the yankees (aka hill toppers at the time) average attendance was in 1910 and see if it matches up correctly.