Marlins ditching teal in new color scheme

[SilverNRed]

The "Rays" really are a failure. Not only the name change, but they ditched a unique look in favor of boring, generic nothing.

That logo is awful, bland, and the letters don't even interlock! I thought it's a baseball rule that multiple letters on a hat must always interlock in some clever fashion. Very uninspired. And what is a "ray?" I'm assuming it's supposed to be a ray of healthy Florida sunshine, but they don't even get that playing in a dome!

This Marlins thing seems like a mistake, as well. Why do teams insist on making themselves look worse?

Their 2007 colors and jerseys were better, but the logo on the green hats was way too big. Dark blue, light blue, and yellow isn't a bad combo either. Their light blue alternates are nice enough that I've considered picking one up. I'm not sure how you'd to an interlocked "TB" logo that actually looks good, but maybe someone here has given it a shot. Their look now is decent, I just wish the "Rays" on the front was the same Rays from the 2007 look.

All that said, the name change stinks. "Devil Rays", "Stingrays", and "Sun Rays" are all better than the non-specific "Rays". At the same time, I'm not super excited about them changing since they're actually a respectable franchise since making the 2008 change.

And, BTW, other than sharks, I think fish make for terrible team names. Mammals like bears, lions, and tigers all growl, snarl, roar, etc. and there's some personality/ferocity/expression in that. Sharks look like they're snarling when they attack something, but most fish look exactly the same all the time. They have no personality. I think the reason some people are animal nuts is that they occasionally resemble people. (You can sorta relate to a happy, scared, or angry dog. It's impossible to relate to a fish. They're zombies.)

[tBBP]

Ok well then answer this...how in the hell does anybody relate to a sock?

[Matito]

We didn't really need Florida teams in the major leagues.

I don't mean to derail the thread, but this theory makes me angry, and always has. Why do other markets deserve a major league team and we don't? Just because we get the spring training for a month? I guess Arizona doesn't deserve a team.

Because it gets hot in the summer? Say bye-bye to the Astros and Rangers, too.

Because our attendance isn't like New York or Boston? Let's nix Cleveland, Toronto, Pittsburgh, Oakland, Kansas City and Cincinnati, because they were all below Tampa Bay last year in attendance.

So that leaves us with teams only in big money, cool-weather big cities. Hope you don't mind more snowy World Series games, because they aren't getting any earlier with Selig in office.

[The_Admiral]

Why do other markets deserve a major league team and we don't?

Because the teams aren't popular and people don't go to the games to see them. It's hard to look at Miami and Tampa Bay and say "I'm glad they put teams there."

[Lights Out]

*looks at the Marlins with their two World Series titles*

*looks at the Rays with their AL Championship, World Series appearance, and current best record in the majors*

Yeah, I think the Marlins and Rays have done enough to deserve to stay in their markets despite the current lack of fan interest.

[RyanB06]

*looks at the Marlins with their two World Series titles*

*looks at the Rays with their AL Championship, World Series appearance, and current best record in the majors*

Yeah, I think the Marlins and Rays have done enough to deserve to stay in their markets despite the current lack of fan interest.

About two-thirds of the population [of Florida] was born in another state, the second highest in the country.

From Wikipedia (I know, consider the source). This is why the Rays and Marlins don't draw - most of the population is from somewhere else, and as such, roots for their hometown team over the local one.

[The_Admiral]

Yeah, too much of sports has to do with Being From & Of A Place. That hardly ever happens in Florida (or at least not as intended; the New Yorkers there play more into the stereotypes than the New Yorkers in New York). The Marlins winning two championships doesn't really justify putting a major league team in Miami. It just means the team they put there happened to win. The Marlins are otherwise an abject failure and it's pretty disgusting that they still managed to shake down Miami for a free park that nobody will go to.

[SilverNRed]

*looks at the Marlins with their two World Series titles*

*looks at the Rays with their AL Championship, World Series appearance, and current best record in the majors*

Yeah, I think the Marlins and Rays have done enough to deserve to stay in their markets despite the current lack of fan interest.

Both teams have had TERRIBLE stadiums and questionable ownership for their entire history. A big part of baseball attendance is the stadium experience. So when you're trying to create fans for a team with no history, offering them a stadium that completely sucks is not a recipe for success. Then you add in a team that has been mostly clueless (Rays) or a team where the best players are traded even after World Series wins (Marlins) and that's not going to help either.

It also takes time to build a fan base. After 20 years in Seattle, the Mariners were rumored to be on their way to Tampa because it didn't look like major league baseball was working out in Seattle. (Fun Fact: the makers of Naked Gun were only allowed to use real teams in the movie if they included the Mariners as the team the Angels were playing. MLB thought the M's were so desperate for credibility, just appearing in that movie would help.) Eventually 1995 happens, Griffey happens, ARod happens, Safeco Field happens, Ichiro happens, 2001 happens.....and suddenly they're a legit franchise.

Get the new stadiums built and get those teams some long-term stability, and major league baseball will work in Florida.

[BBTV]

*looks at the Marlins with their two World Series titles*

*looks at the Rays with their AL Championship, World Series appearance, and current best record in the majors*

Yeah, I think the Marlins and Rays have done enough to deserve to stay in their markets despite the current lack of fan interest.

That's one of the dumber things I've read on this board in recent memory. You are aware that the entire point of a professional sports franchise is to make money, which is generally accomplished by establishing a fan base to market your product and merchandise to, right? If you're losing money and not generating interest, then you absolutely 100% do NOT belong in whatever "market" you're in. They're not out there competing simply to exhibit the sport. They're out there to get people to PAY to watch PAID athletes play the sport. If that's not happening, then the entire point has been missed.

[scarsofthumper]

Once the new ballpark in Miami gets built, they WILL start selling out.

I love Florida baseball, but going to the Trop and Dolphin Stadium SUCKS.

[IceCap]

*looks at the Marlins with their two World Series titles*

*looks at the Rays with their AL Championship, World Series appearance, and current best record in the majors*

Yeah, I think the Marlins and Rays have done enough to deserve to stay in their markets despite the current lack of fan interest.

Both teams have had TERRIBLE stadiums and questionable ownership for their entire history. A big part of baseball attendance is the stadium experience. So when you're trying to create fans for a team with no history, offering them a stadium that completely sucks is not a recipe for success. Then you add in a team that has been mostly clueless (Rays) or a team where the best players are traded even after World Series wins (Marlins) and that's not going to help either.

It also takes time to build a fan base. After 20 years in Seattle, the Mariners were rumored to be on their way to Tampa because it didn't look like major league baseball was working out in Seattle. (Fun Fact: the makers of Naked Gun were only allowed to use real teams in the movie if they included the Mariners as the team the Angels were playing. MLB thought the M's were so desperate for credibility, just appearing in that movie would help.) Eventually 1995 happens, Griffey happens, ARod happens, Safeco Field happens, Ichiro happens, 2001 happens.....and suddenly they're a legit franchise.

Get the new stadiums built and get those teams some long-term stability, and major league baseball will work in Florida.

That's all well and good, but like the NHL in Phoenix, time and money has to be a factor here as well. Can the Rays and Marlins afford to play the waiting game? Granted they're not bleeding money like the Phoenix Coyotes are, but if they're losing significant chunks of change due to a lack of fan interest then it may not be economically viable to keep them where they are long enough to build that interest.

[TrueYankee26]

Once the new ballpark in Miami gets built, they WILL start selling out.

I love Florida baseball, but going to the Trop and Dolphin Stadium SUCKS.

Well people were saying the same thing about the Nats, and what happened? Other than the 2008 opener & the Strasburg game, rarely anyone attended the games.

[Lights Out]

Both teams have had TERRIBLE stadiums and questionable ownership for their entire history. A big part of baseball attendance is the stadium experience. So when you're trying to create fans for a team with no history, offering them a stadium that completely sucks is not a recipe for success. Then you add in a team that has been mostly clueless (Rays) or a team where the best players are traded even after World Series wins (Marlins) and that's not going to help either.

The Marlins at least are finally getting a new stadium built, and it's shaping up to be one of the best in the MLB. The Rays, inexplicably, seem to be content with the Trop right now, but hopefully they come to their senses and get a new stadium of their own built.

As a Rays fan, I agree that the Rays were clueless in their first couple of years. But you can't call them "mostly" clueless. They spent years building one of the best farm systems in baseball and they've invested the time it takes to build a consistent winner. They've won the AL Championship and been to a World Series now. They don't look clueless anymore.

As for the Marlins, I agree that the insistence on post-World Series fire sales has drastically ruined their chances at a major fanbase. However, moving the team is not going to fix that - changing the ownership will. A new owner with a new mindset that will spend money and refuse to break up a championship team will make having a devoted fanbase possible again, and they don't have to move out of Florida to do so.

It also takes time to build a fan base. After 20 years in Seattle, the Mariners were rumored to be on their way to Tampa because it didn't look like major league baseball was working out in Seattle. Eventually 1995 happens, Griffey happens, ARod happens, Safeco Field happens, Ichiro happens, 2001 happens.....and suddenly they're a legit franchise.

I agree that the Marlins, the way they are now anyway, are not a legit franchise. There's no real commitment to winning there right now, just a commitment to spending as little money as possible on the team.

However, the Rays have become a legit franchise. Carl Crawford happened in the '99 draft, B.J. Upton happened in the '02 draft, Evan Longoria happened in the '06 draft, Carlos Peña signing happened in 2007, 2008 happened, and the best record in the majors is happening now. They're the poster team for building through your farm system and delaying immediate gratification for future long-term success. If they win a World Series, I think the fanbase will grow exponentially.

Get the new stadiums built and get those teams some long-term stability, and major league baseball will work in Florida.

The Marlins are getting a new stadium built. The Rays are pretty stable. With some minor changes that don't involve moving the teams, they can have success.

You are aware that the entire point of a professional sports franchise is to make money, which is generally accomplished by establishing a fan base to market your product and merchandise to, right?

Well yeah, duh.

If you're losing money and not generating interest, then you absolutely 100% do NOT belong in whatever "market" you're in. They're not out there competing simply to exhibit the sport. They're out there to get people to PAY to watch PAID athletes play the sport. If that's not happening, then the entire point has been missed.

If the Marlins and Rays are that big of a financial drain on the MLB, wouldn't they have been moved years ago?

How can you say that the Rays aren't making money for the MLB, by the way? Their average attendance has been improving each season over the past few years. In 2007, they were dead last in the AL in attendance (14th out of 14 teams). In 2008, they moved up to 12th. In 2009, they were 11th. So far this year, they've been 10th in attendance in the AL. Their fanbase is growing. The franchise is selling more tickets. And I'd be interested to see the stats on whether or not merchandise sales have grown as well, but I don't have those stats. Regardless, it's clear that if the Rays continue their success, those attendance numbers will keep growing, and if they win a World Series, I predict they'll be in the top 5 in attendance in the AL.

The Marlins are another story. They haven't finished anywhere outside of last place in attendance (16th out of 16 teams) in the NL since 2005. They were 15th in attendance in 2005. However, judging from how the Rays' average attendance has grown, you can rule out the fact that the Marlins are in Florida as the reason for their attendance failure. It has more to do with the idiotic policy of breaking up championship teams after titles. Why watch if success is only going to be fleeting? Again, new ownership would fix the Marlins a lot quicker than a new market.

And by the way, in 1997, the year the Marlins won their first title, they were 5th in the NL in average attendance. Baseball can work in Florida just like it works everywhere else.

[BrandMooreArt]

*looks at the Marlins with their two World Series titles*

*looks at the Rays with their AL Championship, World Series appearance, and current best record in the majors*

Yeah, I think the Marlins and Rays have done enough to deserve to stay in their markets despite the current lack of fan interest.

About two-thirds of the population [of Florida] was born in another state, the second highest in the country.

From Wikipedia (I know, consider the source). This is why the Rays and Marlins don't draw - most of the population is from somewhere else, and as such, roots for their hometown team over the local one.

i can relate to this. though, i do see way more Dolphins and Buccaneers "stuff" in the Orlando area than anything else

[infrared41]

Once the new ballpark in Miami gets built, they WILL start selling out.

I love Florida baseball, but going to the Trop and Dolphin Stadium SUCKS.

Well people were saying the same thing about the Nats, and what happened? Other than the 2008 opener & the Strasburg game, rarely anyone attended the games.

The Marlins local TV ratings are among the highest in baseball. A better stadium may actually get people to come to the games.

[SilverNRed]

Once the new ballpark in Miami gets built, they WILL start selling out.

I love Florida baseball, but going to the Trop and Dolphin Stadium SUCKS.

Well people were saying the same thing about the Nats, and what happened? Other than the 2008 opener & the Strasburg game, rarely anyone attended the games.

New stadiums aren't magic. The Nationals have been terrible every year since moving to Washington. Until Strasburg showed up, there was never anyone exciting on the team. I want to see how their attendance is now that there is a baseball reason to go to a game at that stadium.

[SilverNRed]

Once the new ballpark in Miami gets built, they WILL start selling out.

I love Florida baseball, but going to the Trop and Dolphin Stadium SUCKS.

Well people were saying the same thing about the Nats, and what happened? Other than the 2008 opener & the Strasburg game, rarely anyone attended the games.

The Marlins local TV ratings are among the highest in baseball. A better stadium may actually get people to come to the games.

The Florida teams have the only baseball fans I can remember who say it "sucks" to go to their games. If your stadium is so bad that fans don't like being there, regardless of how the team is doing, that's going to be a major problem.

[Matito]

The Rays, inexplicably, seem to be content with the Trop right now, but hopefully they come to their senses and get a new stadium of their own built.

I wouldn't say they're "content" with the Trop. It's just that there's really nothing the team can do. They have to stay in St. Petersburg until 2027 (they signed a 30-year deal when they started playing here), and unless Tampa has something up their sleeve, they're stuck in the Trop, because there's really no money to build a new stadium.

[The_Admiral]

The Marlins local TV ratings are among the highest in baseball.

I've seen this trope repeated here a bunch of times, usually by marlinfan, and I've never found the numbers to back it up.

http://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/article/63798

If Marlins games are split 50/50ish between Sun Sports and Fox Sports Florida, then they would seem to have averaged 51,000 households for 2009. Now, relative to the Florida Panthers who get like 3,000 households tuning in, or Marlins game attendance itself which has dipped below 400 people, then hot damn! 51,000 sets is some monumental attention to Miami sports. Relative to the rest of the league, however, it's not "among the highest in baseball." I see 346,000 for the Yanks, 228,000 for the Red Sox, 145,000 for the Cubs over CSN (they're not counting WGN games), 122,000 for the Dodgers. In metros that are about the same size as Miami, +/- a million or so people, you have 210,000 households for the Phillies, 83,000 for the Braves, 133,000 for the Tigers, and 62,000 for the Dbags. The smallest market in baseball is Milwaukee and the Brewers are listed at 56,000, which puts them just ahead of mighty Miami. They're ahead of a few moribund franchises like the Nats and O's, but that's to be expected. So basically the Marlins have a semi-respectable niche. That's all. They're not a ratings powerhouse.

[NDwas]

New stadiums aren't magic. The Nationals have been terrible every year since moving to Washington. Until Strasburg showed up, there was never anyone exciting on the team. I want to see how their attendance is now that there is a baseball reason to go to a game at that stadium.

False. The Nationals had a great team in 2005, but collapsed in August. And last time I checked, Soriano, Zimmerman and Dunn were quite exciting to watch. Plus, over the last 5 years, the Nats have averaged almost 2.2 million fans per season, while the Marlins have averaged 1.4 million and the Rays 1.5 million. The reason people don't show up in DC is because they don't win...and the fact that they have a crap ownership group that doesn't know how to attract fans properly.

But every city has a different situation - for example, the Mets averaged 10,000 fewer fans in their first season at Citi Field and this year, the team has their lowest attendance average since 2004. I've never heard anyone complain about that.