Help Clean up the Concepts Forum

[9erssteve]

Mm, I'd say no to that. There's just not enough diffentiation between various topics on the concept forum to call for a completely separate section. The only thing that I could even see working would be a separate forum for sigs and wallpapers and avatars and such, but I consider those a form of concepts in the first place, so I don't think it should be separated.

what about concepts and sigs/avatars?

Personally I'd be in favour of this.

Sig's, avatars and wallpapers etc aren't what I regard as concepts. By that I mean teams dont have to have these things. In order to play and be marketable they require logos and uni's but Sigs and avatars are personal identifiers for members here not teams, and to a lesser degree so is a wallpaper.

Yes these things can be creative, and they can have a concept to them, but they are not concepts in the sense that the concept forum was intended for if you ask me. On a personal level I also find it strange that there are so many people keen to use sigs and avatars created by other people. As I said they are meant to be personal identifiers and as such, especially in such a creative environment, I'd expect more people to create their own.

So yeah with regards physical clean up of the concepts board I think sigs and avatars should probably be a board of it's own, and with regards the posts issue I like the suggestions with regards plagerism. As for trolling the most simple and effective way to deal with it is to ignore it. These idiots are just looking to get a rise out of people and if we dont give it to them they'll go off and ply their trade elsewhere where they get the attention they so desperately crave.

[IceCap]

Just my two cents, but I hate it when someone posts "you can't do this, their uniforms are untouchable!" in a New York Yankees, Montreal Canadians, Boston Celtics, Pittsburgh Steelers, etc.... thread.

Yes, there are uniforms out there that the majority of people would not like to see changed in real life. That doesn't mean people should be barred from making concepts for those teams.

Agreed. Nothing's "untouchable." The Yankees, Canadiens, Steelers, and Celtics could all change their uniforms to Oregon-esque modern designs tomorrow, and guess what? The world would not end.

You either misunderstood me or used my point to go off a "traditionalists are evil!" spiel.

I don't want to see any of those teams go Oregon style. Or tinker with their looks in any significant way at all. I'd probably be upset if they did.

What I'm saying is that these teams should still be fair game because a concept =/= real life. If someone makes a super modern Canadiens concept it doesn't mean that's what the team will wear. Yet people see these types of concepts and freak out. They shouldn't, they should appreciate the concept on its own merit.

[Lights Out]

You either misunderstood me or used my point to go off a "traditionalists are evil!" spiel.

I did neither. I was just expanding on the idea that it's dumb to call uniforms "untouchable" and throw a fit when someone "touches" them.

[ESTONES6]

I kind of like the idea of having a Uniform sub-forum and a Sig/Avatar/Misc sub-forum.

[exaccardi]

I kind of like the idea of having a Uniform sub-forum and a Sig/Avatar/Misc sub-forum.

I would definitely support that as well

[JamieRose]

What about making a new title to be bestowed on respected concept makers/commenters? Then create a new advanced concept forum than anybody can see, but only the people with this title can post in?

This way, people who are known to post great concepts, or even known just to put time and effort into their work can post their work without getting bombarded with "needs streips"

The obvious tough part of this, however, is deciding who gets in, and what the criteria is.

[hockey week]

What about making a new title to be bestowed on respected concept makers/commenters? Then create a new advanced concept forum than anybody can see, but only the people with this title can post in?

This way, people who are known to post great concepts, or even known just to put time and effort into their work can post their work without getting bombarded with "needs streips"

The obvious tough part of this, however, is deciding who gets in, and what the criteria is.

it would be impossible to join that group once the group was created. Essentially, it would be "present your concept to the council and pray they like it". It's thinking outside the box, but it would never be effective.

Instead of a Like button, how about a Like button on steroids? Most news sites have a "thumbs up/thumbs down" ratings system, and people can give thumbs up to encourage one another to continue posts like that OR, when posts are unconstructive, instead of flaming, you give them a thumbs down. When a post has 5 more thumbs down than it has thumbs up (or 10, or 15, whatever is appropriate), it is hidden with the phrase "Comment hidden due to its low rating." with the option to show it. would something with both positive reinforcement AND negative reinforcement fix the problems with constructive comments?

[ColeJ]

this thread is disheartening to me...

seems like a lot of the things i've been doing in my NHL tweaks thread are against concept etiquette... which is disheartening simply because of the amount of work and thought i've put into my series, and the amount of positive feedback i've actually gotten on a project that seems to break most of these rules.

overall, i think that we've got a lot of crap going on in this forum that probably shouldn't go on..... but if i had to put a #1 seed on the board for what i think this forum's biggest problem is, it wouldn't be recolors, paint concepts, tweaks, or trolls... it would be egos.

i'm a moderator here (largely due to my work schedule allowing me to help clean up spam at night, and my long-yet-relatively-silent tenure). i love this forum and read it more often than i read my own hockey forum (tbn). but at times, this forum infuriates me because of the high horses that so many of the members sit on. not everyone is a professional. not everyone aspires to be a professional. that doesn't mean their ideas or work don't deserve consideration. i post concepts not for artistic feedback or advice on how to improve my skills. i post them because i want to share my ideas at a creative outlet with other sports nerds that "get it." i can't draw original logos worth a crap, but i love using what's currently available in team identities to "perfect" those packages. if that means making a bruins jersey that changes the black to brown, so be it. or making a cohesive baby-blue based thrashers identity using current templates... not something i've actually done, and not something that requires the utmost skill... but there's a million different ways to do it, and i wouldn't mind seeing a lot of paint-bucket fillers take their crack at it. i mean, the actual team hasn't done it right yet. what's wrong with someone trying it in paint? not every concept has to re-invent the wheel to be worth its while.

basically, a concept doesn't have to be a completely original 100% hand drawn logo package by a professional artist. it can be as simple as a new way of looking at a striping pattern, as far as i'm concerned. maybe i'm alone in that... but some of you come across as so pretentious and pious about this stuff that it's a wonder any newbies even give it a shot.

/rant

[UnclearInitial]

What about making a new title to be bestowed on respected concept makers/commenters? Then create a new advanced concept forum than anybody can see, but only the people with this title can post in?

This way, people who are known to post great concepts, or even known just to put time and effort into their work can post their work without getting bombarded with "needs streips"

The obvious tough part of this, however, is deciding who gets in, and what the criteria is.

Instead of that, maybe everyone gets in, but once you make 3 stupid post/and or 3 no-effort concepts, you get banned from the forum and are relegated to the lower forum. I also would give n00b's first posts a pass, because they might not know the forum etiquette, but if they persist in their behavior, they're banned from the upper forum?

[ESTONES6]

How about this:

1.) Sig/Avatar Concept & Requests

2.) Completed Concepts (Finished products, not looking for any C+C, just showing work)

3.) Works in Progress (looking for C+C)

[IceCap]

this thread is disheartening to me...

seems like a lot of the things i've been doing in my NHL tweaks thread are against concept etiquette... which is disheartening simply because of the amount of work and thought i've put into my series, and the amount of positive feedback i've actually gotten on a project that seems to break most of these rules.

overall, i think that we've got a lot of crap going on in this forum that probably shouldn't go on..... but if i had to put a #1 seed on the board for what i think this forum's biggest problem is, it wouldn't be recolors, paint concepts, tweaks, or trolls... it would be egos.

i'm a moderator here (largely due to my work schedule allowing me to help clean up spam at night, and my long-yet-relatively-silent tenure). i love this forum and read it more often than i read my own hockey forum (tbn). but at times, this forum infuriates me because of the high horses that so many of the members sit on. not everyone is a professional. not everyone aspires to be a professional. that doesn't mean their ideas or work don't deserve consideration. i post concepts not for artistic feedback or advice on how to improve my skills. i post them because i want to share my ideas at a creative outlet with other sports nerds that "get it." i can't draw original logos worth a crap, but i love using what's currently available in team identities to "perfect" those packages. if that means making a bruins jersey that changes the black to brown, so be it. or making a cohesive baby-blue based thrashers identity using current templates... not something i've actually done, and not something that requires the utmost skill... but there's a million different ways to do it, and i wouldn't mind seeing a lot of paint-bucket fillers take their crack at it. i mean, the actual team hasn't done it right yet. what's wrong with someone trying it in paint? not every concept has to re-invent the wheel to be worth its while.

basically, a concept doesn't have to be a completely original 100% hand drawn logo package by a professional artist. it can be as simple as a new way of looking at a striping pattern, as far as i'm concerned. maybe i'm alone in that... but some of you come across as so pretentious and pious about this stuff that it's a wonder any newbies even give it a shot.

/rant

I don't normally do this, but I'll make an exception for Cole's post.

+1

How about this:

1.) Sig/Avatar Concept & Requests

2.) Completed Concepts (Finished products, not looking for any C+C, just showing work)

3.) Works in Progress (looking for C+C)

I don't see that working.

Take my Historic Nations Hockey Concepts project. Each one I present I present as finished. Yet I still ask for c&c. Some of the suggestions I've gotten because of that have led me to improve upon what I thought were perfect, finished designs. Dividing things into separate "Works in Progress" and "Completed Concepts" stagnates the creative process.

[oddball]

Why not have a panel of 10 veteran board members that concepts would be submitted to and 6 out of the 10 would have to approve the concept. Then maybe split the board into beginner concepts, those who are beginners at concepts and veteran concepts those who show whether beginner or not the ability to produce an outstanding concept. Where you fit on the boards would be up to the panel. Eventually a beginner could and should be able to move up to the veteran boards. It would allow the beginners to get good feedback and have something to shoot for and allow the veteran boards to have quality concepts while allowing the beginners to learn. There are beginners who want to learn and there are veterans who do great concepts but a lot of the time they get shoved down by a recolor or a bad design. I don't mind a recolor if it's thoughtful and good, I just think a lot of them are just quickies that hurt the good designs or the ideas of those beginners who want to learn.

[hugevolsfan]

this thread is disheartening to me...

seems like a lot of the things i've been doing in my NHL tweaks thread are against concept etiquette... which is disheartening simply because of the amount of work and thought i've put into my series, and the amount of positive feedback i've actually gotten on a project that seems to break most of these rules.

overall, i think that we've got a lot of crap going on in this forum that probably shouldn't go on..... but if i had to put a #1 seed on the board for what i think this forum's biggest problem is, it wouldn't be recolors, paint concepts, tweaks, or trolls... it would be egos.

i'm a moderator here (largely due to my work schedule allowing me to help clean up spam at night, and my long-yet-relatively-silent tenure). i love this forum and read it more often than i read my own hockey forum (tbn). but at times, this forum infuriates me because of the high horses that so many of the members sit on. not everyone is a professional. not everyone aspires to be a professional. that doesn't mean their ideas or work don't deserve consideration. i post concepts not for artistic feedback or advice on how to improve my skills. i post them because i want to share my ideas at a creative outlet with other sports nerds that "get it." i can't draw original logos worth a crap, but i love using what's currently available in team identities to "perfect" those packages. if that means making a bruins jersey that changes the black to brown, so be it. or making a cohesive baby-blue based thrashers identity using current templates... not something i've actually done, and not something that requires the utmost skill... but there's a million different ways to do it, and i wouldn't mind seeing a lot of paint-bucket fillers take their crack at it. i mean, the actual team hasn't done it right yet. what's wrong with someone trying it in paint? not every concept has to re-invent the wheel to be worth its while.

basically, a concept doesn't have to be a completely original 100% hand drawn logo package by a professional artist. it can be as simple as a new way of looking at a striping pattern, as far as i'm concerned. maybe i'm alone in that... but some of you come across as so pretentious and pious about this stuff that it's a wonder any newbies even give it a shot.

/rant

I agree with many of these points. I think folks need to calm down a little or risk completely ruining a good thing here. Just relax a little & enjoy what you like & skip by what you don't.

[ColeJ]

that said, i'm all for sigs/wallpapers/etc getting a sub forum, or simply not being allowed in the concepts forum. this place should be about the design and debate of sports uniforms. not cute little graphics involving a team logo.

[IceCap]

Why not have a panel of 10 veteran board members that concepts would be submitted to and 6 out of the 10 would have to approve the concept. Then maybe split the board into beginner concepts, those who are beginners at concepts and veteran concepts those who show whether beginner or not the ability to produce an outstanding concept. Where you fit on the boards would be up to the panel. Eventually a beginner could and should be able to move up to the veteran boards. It would allow the beginners to get good feedback and have something to shoot for and allow the veteran boards to have quality concepts while allowing the beginners to learn. There are beginners who want to learn and there are veterans who do great concepts but a lot of the time they get shoved down by a recolor or a bad design. I don't mind a recolor if it's thoughtful and good, I just think a lot of them are just quickies that hurt the good designs or the ideas of those beginners who want to learn.

This sounds convoluted.

The simplest way to fix things is to to add sub forums, establish committees (one of the most ludicrous things I've ever heard), or give select people "star concept creator" status. If you want to fix the concept forum it begins and ends with the attitudes of each poster. If you see a joke concept done in bad taste don't respond telling the op how offended you are. You're only feeding the troll and bumping his or her work. If you don't want to see recolours dominate the first page don't reply to them. Even replying to them to say you don't like recolours is bumping the recolour. If you see a concept you do like explain why you like it, and if you see room for improvement explain why.

Attitude, attitude, attitude. Create a positive attitude where clean, nicely presented concepts are admired and where the junk is ignored will both inspire people to post more nicely presented, clean, concepts and discourage trolls and recolour junkies.

No overly-complicated forum structure/committee hearings needed.

that said, i'm all for sigs/wallpapers/etc getting a sub forum, or simply not being allowed in the concepts forum. this place should be about the design and debate of sports uniforms. not cute little graphics involving a team logo.

I don't even see the need for them to be posted at all. If you have an idea for a signature just create one for yourself. If you want to make more for others you just need a small amount of text in your sig saying "like this? I'll make you one if you PM me a request." That's all you really need.

[Jhero34]

this thread is disheartening to me...

seems like a lot of the things i've been doing in my NHL tweaks thread are against concept etiquette... which is disheartening simply because of the amount of work and thought i've put into my series, and the amount of positive feedback i've actually gotten on a project that seems to break most of these rules.

overall, i think that we've got a lot of crap going on in this forum that probably shouldn't go on..... but if i had to put a #1 seed on the board for what i think this forum's biggest problem is, it wouldn't be recolors, paint concepts, tweaks, or trolls... it would be egos.

i'm a moderator here (largely due to my work schedule allowing me to help clean up spam at night, and my long-yet-relatively-silent tenure). i love this forum and read it more often than i read my own hockey forum (tbn). but at times, this forum infuriates me because of the high horses that so many of the members sit on. not everyone is a professional. not everyone aspires to be a professional. that doesn't mean their ideas or work don't deserve consideration. i post concepts not for artistic feedback or advice on how to improve my skills. i post them because i want to share my ideas at a creative outlet with other sports nerds that "get it." i can't draw original logos worth a crap, but i love using what's currently available in team identities to "perfect" those packages. if that means making a bruins jersey that changes the black to brown, so be it. or making a cohesive baby-blue based thrashers identity using current templates... not something i've actually done, and not something that requires the utmost skill... but there's a million different ways to do it, and i wouldn't mind seeing a lot of paint-bucket fillers take their crack at it. i mean, the actual team hasn't done it right yet. what's wrong with someone trying it in paint? not every concept has to re-invent the wheel to be worth its while.

basically, a concept doesn't have to be a completely original 100% hand drawn logo package by a professional artist. it can be as simple as a new way of looking at a striping pattern, as far as i'm concerned. maybe i'm alone in that... but some of you come across as so pretentious and pious about this stuff that it's a wonder any newbies even give it a shot.

/rant

i have to agree, a concept doesnt have to be a totally new idea but i think what most people dont like are post where some one puts the yankees in pink and powder blue or something else ridiculous and not a new twist on an older idea, at least i hope else this what people are trying to convey else anyone who isnt a professional artist with a state of the art vector drawing program and rendering software may as well not bother

[Drakonius26]

this thread is disheartening to me...

seems like a lot of the things i've been doing in my NHL tweaks thread are against concept etiquette... which is disheartening simply because of the amount of work and thought i've put into my series, and the amount of positive feedback i've actually gotten on a project that seems to break most of these rules.

overall, i think that we've got a lot of crap going on in this forum that probably shouldn't go on..... but if i had to put a #1 seed on the board for what i think this forum's biggest problem is, it wouldn't be recolors, paint concepts, tweaks, or trolls... it would be egos.

i'm a moderator here (largely due to my work schedule allowing me to help clean up spam at night, and my long-yet-relatively-silent tenure). i love this forum and read it more often than i read my own hockey forum (tbn). but at times, this forum infuriates me because of the high horses that so many of the members sit on. not everyone is a professional. not everyone aspires to be a professional. that doesn't mean their ideas or work don't deserve consideration. i post concepts not for artistic feedback or advice on how to improve my skills. i post them because i want to share my ideas at a creative outlet with other sports nerds that "get it." i can't draw original logos worth a crap, but i love using what's currently available in team identities to "perfect" those packages. if that means making a bruins jersey that changes the black to brown, so be it. or making a cohesive baby-blue based thrashers identity using current templates... not something i've actually done, and not something that requires the utmost skill... but there's a million different ways to do it, and i wouldn't mind seeing a lot of paint-bucket fillers take their crack at it. i mean, the actual team hasn't done it right yet. what's wrong with someone trying it in paint? not every concept has to re-invent the wheel to be worth its while.

basically, a concept doesn't have to be a completely original 100% hand drawn logo package by a professional artist. it can be as simple as a new way of looking at a striping pattern, as far as i'm concerned. maybe i'm alone in that... but some of you come across as so pretentious and pious about this stuff that it's a wonder any newbies even give it a shot.

/rant

I couldn't agree more with this post. I know I'm opinionated about a lot of things, but I try to either not post (if I don't like it) or give that person a nudge in the right direction. I'm an amateur artist, really. More skilled in the field of creative writing than design, but some of the posts and crap that Ice had to deal with on his Historical Hockey Concepts is exactly why I'll never think of posting a concept here. Sometimes even when you try to defend your point in the general forums, you get insulted simply for stating a different opinion than others around you, and that carries over into the concept part of these boards where someone will take offense to any critique you give them because they've had to deal with someone of those idiots, previously mentioned. It's rather disappointing to see these boards on the decline, but we do need to have some sort of changes made without encroaching upon the creativity of others (we don't need to get rid of all people making signatures or wallpapers, just move them) or creating a class system (an executive committee of 10 people that could very easily be abusive or hold a grudge against those they differ with previously) which would undoubtedly cause even more tension than before.

[loogodude90]

When I see a great concept that I think needs almost no fixing, I usually don't comment. Why? Because when I would do that, I felt like I was post-padding. If I say something like "This is great, you did a great job and there's nothing I can really recommend to change", I feel like I am not really contributing anything. I don't know how many other posters feel that way, but I think that's why the bad concepts get more attention - it's because for those, there are actually things to critique and recommend (and therefore post).

[hockey week]

that said, i'm all for sigs/wallpapers/etc getting a sub forum, or simply not being allowed in the concepts forum. this place should be about the design and debate of sports uniforms. not cute little graphics involving a team logo.

I agree with many of these points. I think folks need to calm down a little or risk completely ruining a good thing here. Just relax a little & enjoy what you like & skip by what you don't.

There are currently two threads about wallpapers on the front page. I don't see a single one about avatars. Is there really a point to creating a whole forum for them? Seems like a massive overreaction to something that isn't even problematic (and I've never made a wallpaper, either, so it doesn't help me either way)

[hockey week]

When I see a great concept that I think needs almost no fixing, I usually don't comment. Why? Because when I would do that, I felt like I was post-padding. If I say something like "This is great, you did a great job and there's nothing I can really recommend to change", I feel like I am not really contributing anything. I don't know how many other posters feel that way, but I think that's why the bad concepts get more attention - it's because for those, there are actually things to critique and recommend (and therefore post).

Sounds like the perfect validation for a Like button or a thumbs up/thumbs down ratings system on each post.