Domestic Soccer 2013

[twi]

Interesting, I was never sure how strong the connection was from one team to the next. Although the NASL has had pretty good success with bringing back "old" teams that have no connection to their former namesakes (Rowdies, Strikers) and it's been pulled off on higher levels with the NHL's Senators and Jets.

What's the Cosmos' official stance? Are they Cleveland Brown-ing it?

[Gothamite]

They recognize that the organization fielding a team now is the same one that was founded in 1971.

I don't know why this threatens people so, but it has the advantage of being the truth.

I get why the Browns deal (or the inevitable Sonic-ing) seems awkward. But this isn't a situation where a new organization springs up and assumes the legacy of a previous, unrelated one. This a clear case of clear and continuous ownership of a single entity.

The club was formed in 1971 to field a team in the original NASL, which folded a decade later. Then the Cosmos branched out into the MISL, which also folded. Then Pinton kept the name and organization alive by moving it into youth soccer camps, which he ran for twenty years. Then he sold the organization (not just the name, but everything including business records, archival materials and all the original trophies) to a group seeking an MLS spot. They couldn't get it together, so they sold the club to the current owners, who joined the new NASL.

The Wikipediots can pretend however much they like, but it's the same entity.

[Still MIGHTY]

I hope the next thing I hear about the New York Cosmos is the last thing I hear about the New York Cosmos.

[raysox]

Sorry, last one!

Plus, if there was a New York team in the NASL, it would have to be the Cosmos. (Hypothetically) if the Rowdies were playing NYCFC, it wouldn't be the same as one of the best rivalry US soccer has had. Yes they basically are two different teams 30 years after their prime, but it adds to the fun.

RSL beat Portland 4-2 on NBCSN last night. RSL had a really good bicycle kick that clinched the win. The California Classico also happens today. The MLS is wide open right now, anyone who makes the playoffs has a legitimate shot at the title.

[Don]

That RSL/Timbers game was insane. Timbers look in danger of slipping out of the playoffs if they dont get it together on the road. Losing Valeri is huge too.

[Brian in Boston]

They recognize that the organization fielding a team now is the same one that was founded in 1971.

I don't know why this threatens people so, but it has the advantage of being the truth.

I get why the Browns deal (or the inevitable Sonic-ing) seems awkward. But this isn't a situation where a new organization springs up and assumes the legacy of a previous, unrelated one. This a clear case of clear and continuous ownership of a single entity.

The club was formed in 1971 to field a team in the original NASL, which folded a decade later. Then the Cosmos branched out into the MISL, which also folded. Then Pinton kept the name and organization alive by moving it into youth soccer camps, which he ran for twenty years. Then he sold the organization (not just the name, but everything including business records, archival materials and all the original trophies) to a group seeking an MLS spot. They couldn't get it together, so they sold the club to the current owners, who joined the new NASL.

The Wikipediots can pretend however much they like, but it's the same entity.

Really? Souvenir merchandise is your source of incontrovertible proof that today's Cosmos are the same organization that the Ertegun Brothers and Steve Ross launched in 1971? This is getting sillier by the minute. Look, the Vancouver Whitecaps' of Major League Soccer have "SINCE 1974" emblazoned on the back of their game jerseys. Today's Whitecaps are no more the organization that played in the original North American Soccer League from 1974 to 1984, than today's New York Cosmos are the organization that took to the pitch in the original NASL in 1971.

I can't speak for anyone else, but today's New York Cosmos claiming to be the original organization doesn't "threaten" me. Rather, I just don't have the stomach for accepting fatuous claims backed up by intellectual dishonesty. And that is what the current Cosmos and their fans are engaged in when they claim "a clear case of clear and continuous ownership of a single entity".

Such a claim is nothing more than a myth that was promoted by the self-aggrandizing Pepe Pinton for close to three decades and embraced by nostalgic Cosmos fan-boys.

I'll grant that G. Peppe Pinton managed to keep the Cosmos' logo and name alive by obtaining trademark rights to said intellectual property and grafting them onto youth soccer camps that he passed off as being the original Soccer Camps of America youth division for twenty years. That said, the original New York Cosmos organization/franchise, which Time Warner sold majority control of to Giorgio Chinaglia in 1984, ceased to exist when Chinaglia and his financial backers folded the entity in 1985.

Mr. Pinton's managing to parlay his word-class ego-massaging of Giorgio Chinaglia into being around long enough to get his hands on the "business records, archival materials and all the original trophies" of the famed New York Cosmos and sell said items to Paul Kemsley - an individual possessed of an ability to engage in self-delusion at least on par with Mr. Pinton's own - simply means that Mr. Kemsley purchased the "business records, archival materials and all the original trophies" of a professional sports organization that ceased to exist in 1985. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for your taking swipes at so-called "Wikipediots" who deign to challenge the fallacious Cosmos lineage that Mr. Pinton, Mr. Kemsley, ownership of the new Cosmos, and the new NASL leadership seek to put forward, I'd counter that fan-boys who so desperately pine for a fantasy to be true can pretend however much they like, but the original New York Cosmos organization ceased to exist in 1985. Pepe Pinton's self-aggrandizing attempts at myth-making - and all of the factually-incorrect souvenir products in the world - don't change that fact.

[Lee.]

:censored: JUST GOT REAL SON

[Foxxtrot44]

That RSL/Timbers game was insane. Timbers look in danger of slipping out of the playoffs if they dont get it together on the road. Losing Valeri is huge too.

RSL and Portland have played 3 times in 4 weeks and the Timbers defense has been woeful in all of those meetings. Even when RSL was without Saborio and Beckerman...When the offseason rolls around they NEED to find someway to shore up the middle of the park, especially at the back.

[Gothamite]

As for your taking swipes at so-called "Wikipediots" who deign to challenge the fallacious Cosmos lineage that Mr. Pinton, Mr. Kemsley, ownership of the new Cosmos, and the new NASL leadership seek to put forward, I'd counter that fan-boys who so desperately pine for a fantasy to be true can pretend however much they like, but the original New York Cosmos organization ceased to exist in 1985. Pepe Pinton's self-aggrandizing attempts at myth-making - and all of the factually-incorrect souvenir products in the world - don't change that fact.

I take swipes at any organization that puts facts up to a vote. Seriously. A popularity contest? Sheesh.

I'll agree that Pinton is a self-aggrandizing creep, but that doesn't change the basic facts. You admit the chain of custody - the new Saudi owners bought the same organization founded in 1971 and brought to prominence by Steve Ross and Warner Communications. The chain of custody is clear and incontrovertible.

FWIW, I posted the tshirt to illustrate the club's stance, since it was asked, not as evidence in its own right. That would be silly.

[Don]

That RSL/Timbers game was insane. Timbers look in danger of slipping out of the playoffs if they dont get it together on the road. Losing Valeri is huge too.

RSL and Portland have played 3 times in 4 weeks and the Timbers defense has been woeful in all of those meetings. Even when RSL was without Saborio and Beckerman...When the offseason rolls around they NEED to find someway to shore up the middle of the park, especially at the back.

Their D has been terrible. They lost Wil Johnson to injury too. Its a shame theyre wasting the promising start they had cause the playoffs in Portland would be amazing. Need someone to root for since my own club will in all likelihood be picking 1st overall.

[Needschat]

When NYCFC Yankees enter in 2015, I hope those idiots at Fox don't try to call their matchups "classicos". The states of New York and New Jersey were named by the English, and therefore, they're matchups should be "derbies": the Empire Garden Derby, the Metro Derby

[Brian in Boston]

As for your taking swipes at so-called "Wikipediots" who deign to challenge the fallacious Cosmos lineage that Mr. Pinton, Mr. Kemsley, ownership of the new Cosmos, and the new NASL leadership seek to put forward, I'd counter that fan-boys who so desperately pine for a fantasy to be true can pretend however much they like, but the original New York Cosmos organization ceased to exist in 1985. Pepe Pinton's self-aggrandizing attempts at myth-making - and all of the factually-incorrect souvenir products in the world - don't change that fact.

I take swipes at any organization that puts facts up to a vote. Seriously. A popularity contest? Sheesh.

I'll agree that Pinton is a self-aggrandizing creep, but that doesn't change the basic facts. You admit the chain of custody - the new Saudi owners bought the same organization founded in 1971 and brought to prominence by Steve Ross and Warner Communications. The chain of custody is clear and incontrovertible.

FWIW, I posted the tshirt to illustrate the club's stance, since it was asked, not as evidence in its own right. That would be silly.

I don't depend upon Wikipedia for my knowledge of the history of the original New York Cosmos and the self-aggrandizing machinations that Pepe Pinton has engaged in since the cessation of operations by the original Cosmos organization. I lived through the original history. Further, any number of sources besides Wikipedia can be mined for the true story behind the ignominious end to the once-proud original New York Cosmos.

As for my supposedly admitting "the chain of custody" you outline, I do know such thing. I stated as clearly as I possibly could that the current Cosmos' Saudi owners unequivocally did not buy the same Cosmos organization founded by the Ertegun Brothers and Steve Ross in 1971. What they bought were trademarks to the logo and name that graced the original New York Cosmos organization. Said trademarks were secured by G. Peppe Pinton once they became available in the wake of Giorgio Chinaglia and his financial backers folding the original New York Cosmos in 1985. Peppe Pinton did not buy the original New York Cosmos organization from Giorgio Chinaglia. The original New York Cosmos organization ceased to exist upon Chinaglia's folding it. Peppe Pinton swept in after the fact and simply secured trademark rights to the name and logo of a defunct professional sports franchise. Period.

The current club's stance on the pedigree of their franchise is immaterial. They're obviously going to go along with Peppe Pinton's fairy-tale as they know there exists a community of deluded fans who are desperate to believe that the minor-pro soccer franchise they're rooting for is the original New York Cosmos organization. Said supporters hunger for the sense of legitimacy that such a pedigree would bestow upon the new Cosmos. The current club stands to reap more benefits by playing to the fallacious Cosmos lineage that Peppe Pinton's been prattling on about for close to three decades, than by coming out and admitting the truth: that the only thing the current Cosmos franchise has in common with the original organization is a name and a logo.

Look, I get it. The heyday of the original New York Cosmos was a heady time in American soccer - indeed, American pro sports - history. The exploits of Pele, Beckenbauer, Chinaglia, et al inspire rapturous nostalgia on the part of fans of the beautiful game. It would be wonderful to believe that the American pro soccer organization that once drew crowds of nearly 78,000 fans to the Meadowlands still exists. Sadly, that's not reality. The bottom fell out of the 1970s-1980s soccer boom and not even the original New York Cosmos survived. That organization was reduced to being ousted from the NASL for refusing to post a performance bond, reduced to cutting a lone season in the Major Indoor Soccer League short because of an inability to draw crowds sufficient to cover expenses, and reduced to playing a half-assed independent final "season" of exhibition matches before Chinaglia and his financial backers pulled the plug on the New York Cosmos organization.

As bad as the original Cosmos final days were, worse still is that the memory of the once-proud franchise was reduced to being sullied by the machinations of Pepe Pinton for close to thirty years after the organization had ceased to exist. So, I'm sure there are some Cosmos fans who want to believe that the current New York Cosmos team is, in fact, the original New York Cosmos organization, because - If that were true - today's Cosmos could - by recapturing a bit of the original organization's magic - erase the memory of a "self-aggrandizing creep" shilling the trademark rights to the former team's name and logo to anybody he thought could cut him a seven-figure check, and telling far-fetched stories about his supposedly keeping the original Cosmos alive to anybody willing to offer-up an ear, a slap on the back, and a free drink.

But, the fact of the matter is that today's New York Cosmos franchise is not the latest incarnation of the original New York Cosmos organization. An incontrovertible chain of custody does not stretch from the original 1971-1985 New York Cosmos organization to today's NASL franchise. The original New York Cosmos organization folded in 1985. The 2013 New York Cosmos franchise has every right to pay homage to the former organization by reviving their name and logo through securing trademark rights to said branding elements, but that is all that the new club is doing - reviving the name and logo of a once proud, long defunct team.

Still, it is far better to honor the legacy of the original New York Cosmos by admitting to the true details of said organization's history, than to lend credence to the bogus boasting of a bombastic self-promoter like Pepe Pinton by perpetuating the myths that he spawned.

[twi]

*quietly hides Rowdies shirt and hat that has a second star*

[DG_ThenNowForever]

Seattle beat Columbus tonight 1-0, despite playing 83 minutes with 10 guys. The Crew aren't very good.

[Foxxtrot44]

Seattle beat Columbus tonight 1-0, despite playing 83 minutes with 10 guys. The Crew aren't very good.

What does this have to do with the New York Cosmos?

[Gothamite]

Still, it is far better to honor the legacy of the original New York Cosmos by admitting to the true details of said organization's history, than to lend credence to the bogus boasting of a bombastic self-promoter like Pepe Pinton

I think we'll have to agree to disagree at this point, since if you think the official story is a myth perpetuated by fanboys, I think your position is largely driven by an (understandable) dislike for Pepe Pinton.

[Don]

I hate the :censored:ing Red Bulls.

[Brian in Boston]

Still, it is far better to honor the legacy of the original New York Cosmos by admitting to the true details of said organization's history, than to lend credence to the bogus boasting of a bombastic self-promoter like Pepe Pinton

I think we'll have to agree to disagree at this point, since if you think the official story is a myth perpetuated by fanboys, I think your position is largely driven by an (understandable) dislike for Pepe Pinton.

On the contrary, my position is entirely driven by a preference for recognizing and embracing fact over fiction. That Pepe Pinton has been the primary conduit of fiction insofar as recounting the original Cosmos faux "history" over the past 28 years is just part of an unfortunate scenario that has seen far too many soccer supporters - including Cosmos fanboys - bury their heads in the sand regarding the demise of the original New York Cosmos organization.

[crashcarson15]

Hey, I actually like talking about soccer and not holding pissing matches over the Cosmos so I figured we needed a thread to actually talk about, oh you know, the other teams in the country.

Anyone see Feilhaber's golazo last night? Brilliant.

[Sodboy13]

Everything about the Fire's match against the Dynamo this afternoon was sad.