German Iron Cross for a team logo

[Tygers09]

Hey all, I was thinking of a football team named the Red Barons, their team colors are black & silver with red trim. And I thought of using an iron cross as a helmet logo. But I know the German air force uses the iron cross as their logo so.. can it be used for a sport team logo. Or, would it be considered offensive due to it being a symbol of Nazism?? (that of which I am not trying to promote) Any suggestions or comments??

[TorinK92]

The iron cross was used as the symbol of the German army until 1918 and then started again in 1956, so while it may be not exactly representative of all the right things throughout history, it is definitely not a symbol of nazi-ism.

Anyway, I think you'd be fine to use it. After all NHL 2k9 AND 2k10 has it as a default logo, so it obviously wasn't offensive for them.

[Slater]

I think West Coast Choppers (Jesse James' company) uses it for their logo.

[Tygers09]

Well I asked because I wasnt sure, just in case there were any legal issues...

[KCScout76]

the German Cross is NOT a Nazi sign, it is the symbol of Germany's military crafts. The swastika is the Nazi symbol. You will see planes from WW2 that have and don't have the swastika.

If the unit was associated with the SS or part of Himmler's forces, that unit used the swastika. Some pilots of the Luftwaffe chose not to have the swastika on their planes as they hated the Nazis and were just pilots or soldiers and not part of the Nazi Party.

Goering, head of the Luftwaffe, was a leading member of the Nazi party and, until 1945, Hitler's heir-apparent as Fuehrer. Until the rise of the Waffen SS, the Luftwaffe was the most Nazi of the German armed services.

The Luftwaffe was more dedicated to the Nazis than the other services. it owed its growth to the Nazis.
hitler made some quote about the navy been christian, the army Prussian and the air force National socialist.

I just finished a book and this was mentioned in the book: A Higher Call: An Incredible True Story of Combat and Chivalry in the War-Torn Skies of World War II

[hockey week]

As a history major, the grandson of Holocaust survivors, and a former intern of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, I say: be careful. It's all matters of degrees.

The Iron Cross certainly predates the Nazis and is in use well after the Nazis. It is not an unacceptable symbol, if anything, it is a great symbol of imperial Germany and even of German might. However, that takes on many connotations even today. Every time there is an overly strong Germany, bad things happen. There still is a ton of trepidation using anything even reminiscent of that era, and rightfully so.

Hitler wasn't particularly fond of it, but it was on the canton of their imperial flag and it was used often with medals and symbols, though it was used with red, rather than simply black and white as the Prussians used it.

I would be very careful about use of color. Black Iron Crosses on red with white and black or even gray would be very reminiscent, and therefore bad. Put it in a white circle, and it's even worse.

You put that cross in other colors (blue and gray are common today, white might also work well), and you might be fine.

The cross itself is not bad. No, it was not an exclusively Nazi symbol. But even reminding people of the wrong era will result in plenty of very bad things, especially for public relations.

I would look to the Maltese Cross first (look at photos of von Richtofen, he wore his proudly), and I would look for more squadron logos from the era (I know Eddie Rickenbacker had his own logo, that stuff was just becoming popular. Maybe something from that, though maybe not historically accurate, would work well for a team), or best yet, make a logo that looks like it would be home on the side of a Fokker Dr. I triplane that features a football. That might be your best option.

[Tygers09]

Thank You hockey week, for the info. I will take that into consideration, especially the Maltese Cross rather than the Iron Cross. My initial intention is focused on von Richofen himself, that's why I chose the colors and the cross. When you think of the Red Baron, you immediately associate the triplane and the colors red,white & black, with him. And when I was searching images on the Red Baron, I was focusing on the symbol more than the pictures. So this will help me.

[hawk36]

I did this crude mock up years ago using a similar cross when the Saints were being rumored to be moving to Los Angeles. Thought it would be a good concept for the Los Angeles Saints incorporating the gold/black and the silver/black.

[illwauk]

I think West Coast Choppers (Jesse James' company) uses it for their logo.

The iron cross is a symbol of biker culture and used by a lot of biker-oriented companies.

[Gothamite]

Specifically because it represents "the bad guys". I don't know if you'd ever see a sports team want to tap into that.

[illwauk]

Specifically because it represents "the bad guys". I don't know if you'd ever see a sports team want to tap into that.

Here's a couple that I think could've pulled it off:

[IceCap]

Thank You hockey week, for the info. I will take that into consideration, especially the Maltese Cross rather than the Iron Cross. My initial intention is focused on von Richofen himself, that's why I chose the colors and the cross. When you think of the Red Baron, you immediately associate the triplane and the colors red,white & black, with him. And when I was searching images on the Red Baron, I was focusing on the symbol more than the pictures. So this will help me.

If you're going with an aviation theme then the style of the Iron Cross you use is paramount to avoiding controversy. The Iron Cross used on German aircraft during the Nazi regime was different from the version used on German air craft both before and after the Third Reich. The Nazi version of the Iron Cross was straight.

The pre/post-Nazi Iron Cross was/is more traditionally curved.

And a timeline of German air force emblems...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_air_forces#G

[pianoknight]

As a history major, the grandson of Holocaust survivors, and a former intern of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, I say: be careful. It's all matters of degrees.

The Iron Cross certainly predates the Nazis and is in use well after the Nazis. It is not an unacceptable symbol, if anything, it is a great symbol of imperial Germany and even of German might. However, that takes on many connotations even today. Every time there is an overly strong Germany, bad things happen. There still is a ton of trepidation using anything even reminiscent of that era, and rightfully so.

Hitler wasn't particularly fond of it, but it was on the canton of their imperial flag and it was used often with medals and symbols, though it was used with red, rather than simply black and white as the Prussians used it.

I would be very careful about use of color. Black Iron Crosses on red with white and black or even gray would be very reminiscent, and therefore bad. Put it in a white circle, and it's even worse.

You put that cross in other colors (blue and gray are common today, white might also work well), and you might be fine.

The cross itself is not bad. No, it was not an exclusively Nazi symbol. But even reminding people of the wrong era will result in plenty of very bad things, especially for public relations.

I would look to the Maltese Cross first (look at photos of von Richtofen, he wore his proudly), and I would look for more squadron logos from the era (I know Eddie Rickenbacker had his own logo, that stuff was just becoming popular. Maybe something from that, though maybe not historically accurate, would work well for a team), or best yet, make a logo that looks like it would be home on the side of a Fokker Dr. I triplane that features a football. That might be your best option.

I agree with everything you said except that single statement. There are plenty of wonderful Germans - ones who condemned Nazisim - and there's nothing wrong with Germany gaining power. In fact, under NATO's Nuclear Sharing Program, the United States has actually developed and given nuclear warheads to... Germany.

If you know anything about the culture of modern-day Germany, you'll know that they've taken extreme measures to prevent a Nazi return. Hitler's writings are outlawed. They make America's attempts to deal with slavery look pathetic by comparison. Heck, I'd be more worried about a Nazi movement in the US than in Germany, what with our 1st Amendment Rights. All the nutjobs are free to say/speak/believe what they want.

[IceCap]

Yeah, Germany's done very well for itself post-WWII. In the west at any rate. Germany's pre-Nazi history's also full of some of the greatest thinkers, philosophers, rulers, musicians, and military leaders the western world has ever seen.

That being said the modern day Federal Republic is the first military powerful united Germany that hasn't tried to conquer large swaths of Europe. The past is the past, modern day Germany's a wonderful place, and they have a truly rich history to be proud of, but what hockey week said isn't entirely inaccurate.

[wonderbread]

The "iron cross" or something like was ised on spanish ships too

[-kj]

We were all on vacation!

[IceCap]

The "iron cross" or something like was ised on spanish ships too

That would be the Cross of Burgundy. A completely different symbol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Burgundy

[wonderbread]

The "iron cross" or something like was ised on spanish ships too

That would be the Cross of Burgundy. A completely different symbol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Burgundy

Not those, i mean something that looks like an iron cross with rounded ends

[AndrewPF]

We were all on vacation!

Hey is that a beer hall?