NHL Anti-Thread: Bad Business Decision Aggregator

[DG_ThenNowForever]

1 hour ago, IceCap said:

My main point of contention is that his take "to ignore the Sunbelt would be shortsighted" is kinda tone deaf. The Sunbelt's been the focus for thirty years. 

 

This is one of those things where all of the 2000s feel like a single decade so we don't have the same appreciation for the passage of decades like we did in the 1900s.

 

(I think that's the oldest thing I've ever said.)

[SailorOfSilence102]

7 hours ago, IceCap said:

My main point of contention is that his take "to ignore the Sunbelt would be shortsighted" is kinda tone deaf. The Sunbelt's been the focus for thirty years. 

I mean, I don't think that's fair to what they said, and I don't even think that's what they were saying completely anyway ? A lot of northern hockey fans, well understandably so, do frequently throw out the idea that it was ridiculous for the NHL to ever be in the south, that most of those teams need to pack it up immediately and move to a safer market, and just generally have a lot of contempt for southern hockey whether the teams or the fans, or the idea that hockey even needs to be popular where ice doesn't even exist. I think all those things are fair, I agree with a couple, I'm freaking Minnesotan, but the emotions do get so high and with these like decade long frustrations that sometimes it goes from understandable and rational, to silly and belligerent, and you should recognize that the southern expansion hasn't been a complete fail, and that there isn't anything. That doesn't mean that what's going on in Arizona is good, that doesn't mean that Quebec shouldn't have a team, that doesn't mean the NHL should keep chasing markets once it's cleared it failed like Atlanta. 

 

I guess I just thought it was silly to go off on a post that, basically had the same bullet points as yours, over one thing, that's not even like, completely wrong, or even that strong of a statement.

 

 

[IceCap]

6 hours ago, SailorOfSilence102 said:

and you should recognize that the southern expansion hasn't been a complete fail

I've never once said it was. I've even mentioned the southern teams that have been successes. 

 

If you're going to get on my case for my response to another poster maybe actually read my takes on the subject before you start assuming what my positions are. 

[sky1324]

16 hours ago, IceCap said:

My main point of contention is that his take "to ignore the Sunbelt would be shortsighted" is kinda tone deaf. The Sunbelt's been the focus for thirty years. 

This is why I wanted a pronoun field, btw.

 

And I apologize, I should've worded by post better. I totally get how it could come across as that so no problem. What I meant was that yeah - Sun Belt teams have been the focus for 30 years but they shouldn't be the only focus. So when expansion comes around (because it will) the NHL should be looking everywhere, including the Sun Belt. Because ignoring the Sun Belt entirely would be a bad idea but ignoring everything but the Sun Belt is also a bad idea.

[The_Admiral]

14 hours ago, SailorOfSilence102 said:

A lot of northern hockey fans, well understandably so, do frequently throw out the idea that it was ridiculous for the NHL to ever be in the south, that most of those teams need to pack it up immediately and move to a safer market, and just generally have a lot of contempt for southern hockey whether the teams or the fans, or the idea that hockey even needs to be popular where ice doesn't even exist.

I have contempt for the New South as an entire concept and way of life before we even bring hockey into it. It's built on subsidized infrastructure and hostility to organized labor. If Tennessee had to play by the same rules as northern states, Nashville would still be a one-note backwater.

[IceCap]

On 4/28/2023 at 1:52 PM, CDCLT said:

This is why I wanted a pronoun field, btw.

My apologies.

 

On 4/28/2023 at 1:52 PM, CDCLT said:

And I apologize, I should've worded by post better. I totally get how it could come across as that so no problem. What I meant was that yeah - Sun Belt teams have been the focus for 30 years but they shouldn't be the only focus. So when expansion comes around (because it will) the NHL should be looking everywhere, including the Sun Belt. Because ignoring the Sun Belt entirely would be a bad idea but ignoring everything but the Sun Belt is also a bad idea.

My personal opinion is that we're kind of at the limit for viable NHL markets regardless of where we're talking about. Arizona is a failure and should be replaced by Quebec City. Hartford's probably always going to be there and could be viable with a new arena, and Florida and Carolina are both on shaky ground, and Houston's a dream some people are insistent upon. But it's not like there's an six new markets the league could expand into tomorrow or anything.

[SailorOfSilence102]

On 4/28/2023 at 9:40 AM, IceCap said:

I've never once said it was. I've even mentioned the southern teams that have been successes. 

 

If you're going to get on my case for my response to another poster maybe actually read my takes on the subject before you start assuming what my positions are. 

Yeah, that's fair, I was having a really bad manic episode that day (Posting at 4 am is never a good sign), and was really cranky and upset to a level that wasn't necessary. I'm sorry, and in the future I'll try to disengage when I get like that, it's  problem with me on forums. I was kinda avoiding this thread for a little cause I knew I let that show too much.

[Bmac]

17 hours ago, IceCap said:

My apologies.

 

My personal opinion is that we're kind of at the limit for viable NHL markets regardless of where we're talking about. Arizona is a failure and should be replaced by Quebec City. Hartford's probably always going to be there and could be viable with a new arena, and Florida and Carolina are both on shaky ground, and Houston's a dream some people are insistent upon. But it's not like there's an six new markets the league could expand into tomorrow or anything.

I'll always advocate for Kansas City. They should be next in line behind Quebec City. They have an arena and a sports-obsessed market (one that would stretch into Kansas, Iowa, and Nebraska as well). I know there are some hold-ups currently, but if they wanted to, they could be a perfect landing spot.

[The_Admiral]

Kansas City intrigues me, but I'm not all the way there yet. It's with Milwaukee and Cincinnati on my "midwestern cities that would have occurred to me before Columbus" list. I guess when it comes to hockey, KC feels more like the easternmost western city than the westernmost eastern city, and I get cold feet, if that makes any sense.

[Dilbert]

1 hour ago, the admiral said:

Kansas City intrigues me, but I'm not all the way there yet. It's with Milwaukee and Cincinnati on my "midwestern cities that would have occurred to me before Columbus" list. I guess when it comes to hockey, KC feels more like the easternmost western city than the westernmost eastern city, and I get cold feet, if that makes any sense.

Cincinnati wouldnt have had a chance over Columbus, nor would they now. At the time Columbus was awarded, Cincinnati was going through a stadium/arena rebirth. The citizens of Cincinnati and Hamilton County got screwed over on the funding and building of Paycor Stadium and Great American Ball Park at that time. At the same time Heritage Bank Center (then Riverfront Coliseum) was purchased and renovated, its first since opening in 1975.  While the renovations helped for what the arena hosted at that time, it wouldnt have been adequate for the NHL. Today, the arena needs to be replaced as it has barely been touched since that renovation. However, after taxpayers were screwed over on the ballpark and stadium, a new arena would have to be privately financed and have no taxpayer money go toward it.  The city and county arent going to let it happen again. Its the reason why TQL was privately financed. The problem here is the arena owner doesnt want to entirely pay for it, and no one wants to step up to privately finance it. So while nothing gets done, we now miss out on big concerts, NCAA tournaments, political national conventions, and other events as they all go to Columbus, Cleveland, Indy,  and Louisville instead because they all have newer arenas. Cincinnati had its chance to get into the NHL with the Stingers in the WHA merger, but the NHL only wanted the Canadian clubs and Hartford.

[The_Admiral]

Yeah, the timing worked out poorly for Cincinnati, but the place just feels like a hockey town the way St. Louis and Milwaukee do and Columbus kinda doesn't: a big white-ethnic base and a relative paucity of IPA yuppie transplants. People from there are from there. As a fan, I'm a fan.

 

But yeah, that's good financial context, and meanwhile, Columbus happened because Karmanos scoped it out after getting turned away from Auburn Hills (never forget the abandoned hangar, maybe that's the next move for the Coyotes), and then some local captain of industry had a bug up his ass about building a downtown arena or something. Too bad it didn't work out for Cincy.

 

9 minutes ago, Dilbert said:

the NHL only wanted the Canadian clubs and Hartford.

 

They wanted Wayne Gretzky. They didn't want Quebec City (plus ça change) and really didn't want Winnipeg, who started the whole mess. They got bullied into accepting them.

[Dilbert]

Im not sure if Cincy is a hockey town. Its more of a "Hey the arena has a dollar beer night" or "its Nickelodeon night, lets take the kids to meet the Ninja Turtles". While there are fans of hockey at the Cyclones games, I think its become more of promotional crowd. I still hear people wanting the NBA and the Royals back more than anything. Hockey here is generally at the bottom of the sports totem pole with the Bengals, FC Cincinnati, UC/XU/high school football all above hockey.

[JerseyJimmy]

On 4/28/2023 at 7:30 PM, the admiral said:

I have contempt for the New South as an entire concept and way of life before we even bring hockey into it. It's built on subsidized infrastructure and hostility to organized labor. If Tennessee had to play by the same rules as northern states, Nashville would still be a one-note backwater.

 

you put it better than I possibly could have without getting banhammered. I really don't think we should be awarding these people with sports franchises just because of how housebroken their local/state governments are.

[The_Admiral]

I think back to the trade-in promotion the Predators ran where people could swap their Red Wings merch for Perds merch, the idea being that Nashville had poached a ton of auto manufacturing from Detroit by opening non-unionized shops and people followed the (diminished) jobs. Why not break all your meaningful connections while you're at it. Distasteful.

 

  

47 minutes ago, Dilbert said:

Im not sure if Cincy is a hockey town. Its more of a "Hey the arena has a dollar beer night" or "its Nickelodeon night, lets take the kids to meet the Ninja Turtles". While there are fans of hockey at the Cyclones games, I think its become more of promotional crowd. I still hear people wanting the NBA and the Royals back more than anything. Hockey here is generally at the bottom of the sports totem pole with the Bengals, FC Cincinnati, UC/XU/high school football all above hockey.

 

I think all of this would describe St. Louis in an alternate universe where the Blues had left or never been established. Cincinnati has good bones in there somewhere. Shame it never worked out.

[GDAWG]

 

[kiwi_canadian]

 

[monkeypower]

Friedman said on a 32 Thoughts or a Marek Show back when the those Atlanta rumblings were going over the internet (based on like three tweets and did those go rumblings go away quickly) that he believes the NHL doesn't want to expand soon and the league views Houston as more of a back-up plan for Arizona right now.

[IceCap]

3 hours ago, monkeypower said:

Friedman said on a 32 Thoughts or a Marek Show back when the those Atlanta rumblings were going over the internet (based on like three tweets and did those go rumblings go away quickly) that he believes the NHL doesn't want to expand soon and the league views Houston as more of a back-up plan for Arizona right now.

I'm not sold on Houston but even Houston with all of its problems is a better option than whatever the  is happening in Arizona. 

[SCMODS]

You relocate Arizona to Houston, keeping them in the Western Conference and without asking Detroit or Columbus to move to the West. 

[WestCoastBias]

I hope Arizona figures it out.