NHL Anti-Thread: Bad Business Decision Aggregator

[RyanMcD29]

What is the public opinion on the ground in Tempe anyway? I can't find any recent polls and the HFBoards thread is just the *checks notes* 144th thread of the same Coyotes defenders jumping in everywhere without any actual insights

[GDAWG]

2 hours ago, RyanMcD29 said:

What is the public opinion on the ground in Tempe anyway? I can't find any recent polls and the HFBoards thread is just the *checks notes* 144th thread of the same Coyotes defenders jumping in everywhere without any actual insights

 

Seeing as how the arena is privately funded, it should pass but who knows.  

[The_Admiral]

11 hours ago, RyanMcD29 said:

What is the public opinion on the ground in Tempe anyway? I can't find any recent polls and the HFBoards thread is just the *checks notes* 144th thread of the same Coyotes defenders jumping in everywhere without any actual insights

It's of unending fascination to me that Meme Magic turned the tide and made everyone online into insufferable defenders of the Coyotes/Predators/Panthers/Hurricanes. durr put a team in wood buffalo

[GDAWG]

We're going to get a "Welcome to Wrexham" style series for the Ottawa Senators if Ryan Reynolds buys the team aren't we?

[spartacat_12]

On 2/24/2023 at 9:14 PM, Dilbert said:

Sun Devil, Desert Financial and Mullet are all in Tempe at the ASU campus. If you want concert or sporting events in Tempe, they already have the venues to do so. The NHL failed in Phoenix and Glendale and are gonna fail in Tempe too. Might as well put arenas in Mesa, Chandler, Peoria, Scottsdale, Surprise and every Phoenix suburb to see if the Coyotes can fail there too.

 

When they initially played downtown in Phoenix they were averaging close to sell-out crowds. The arena was the primary issue, with it being optimized for basketball, not hockey. Despite the fact that most of their fans were located in the East Valley, they built an arena in Glendale because they got a better deal there. At the time everyone knew that Scottsdale was the best place for the team to be.

 

23 hours ago, the admiral said:

It's of unending fascination to me that Meme Magic turned the tide and made everyone online into insufferable defenders of the Coyotes/Predators/Panthers/Hurricanes. durr put a team in wood buffalo

 

You included Nashville in that group of teams despite the fact that they've consistently gotten good crowds over the last decade, and have made it to the post-season 8 straight years. Their franchise value is higher than "traditional" markets like Ottawa, Columbus, Winnipeg, and Buffalo. But I get it, these facts don't really fit your "warm cities bad" narrative.

 

It wasn't that long ago that Tampa Bay was an irrelevant organization that had trouble bringing in fans, and now they're one of the league's model franchises.

[sky1324]

I'm a known Southern hockey defender, but I think that honestly the only thing that makes it work long-term is long-term success. Now, the Canes, Lightning, Preds, and Stars have all accomplished that (with Vegas well on the way), while the Yotes and Panthers have not. Obviously those two are also really hurt by their awful stadium locations but I do believe that a more successful Coyotes team could (emphasis on could) have worked. Now though? Unless the team can get that Tempe plan put through I think it's time to pull the plug. I think the team has sucked for too long to build any serious support. We're starting to see the effects of the generation raised with these teams in other markets, but Arizona hasn't paid off like other Sun Belt markets have, and I think it's because they've sucked so much.

 

I think hockey can work anywhere, even in Phoenix, but I think that the mishandling of the Coyotes has poisoned the well, so to speak. Move the team to Quebec, wait a bit, and when you decide to expand again for whatever reason, try again in Arizona.

[FiddySicks]

1 hour ago, CDCLT said:

I'm a known Southern hockey defender, but I think that honestly the only thing that makes it work long-term is long-term success. Now, the Canes, Lightning, Preds, and Stars have all accomplished that (with Vegas well on the way), while the Yotes and Panthers have not. Obviously those two are also really hurt by their awful stadium locations but I do believe that a more successful Coyotes team could (emphasis on could) have worked. Now though? Unless the team can get that Tempe plan put through I think it's time to pull the plug. I think the team has sucked for too long to build any serious support. We're starting to see the effects of the generation raised with these teams in other markets, but Arizona hasn't paid off like other Sun Belt markets have, and I think it's because they've sucked so much.

 

I think hockey can work anywhere, even in Phoenix, but I think that the mishandling of the Coyotes has poisoned the well, so to speak. Move the team to Quebec, wait a bit, and when you decide to expand again for whatever reason, try again in Arizona.

Lol, no. I get what you’re saying, but I think you’re really underestimating just how tepid of a sports market as a whole Phoenix is. It has more than five million people yet has one of the sorriest showings for their local teams of anywhere I can remember. Hockey could for sure work there, but it has to be an absolutely perfect setup (which Maricopa County and the state as a whole simply isn’t capable of, for many reasons), and even then the following probably won’t be more than a niche thing. 

[who do you think]

I don't get why it's so important to have muh footprint in Arizona (or anywhere else where it's simply not working) in an era where the world is smaller than ever, streaming is ubiquitous, everyone has cut cable, and people can very easily follow out-of-market teams by getting Center Ice/League Pass/etc, downloading RSN apps, or just flat-out pirating the games.

 

Not to bring the Rays across threads, but if I lived here 20 years ago I might have been a captive audience, and if I wanted to see major league baseball on a regular basis, I'm either watching a (Devil) Rays game on TV or going to a game. Maybe I become a convert, maybe not (probably not, since their best hitter was :censored:ing Julio Lugo). Now? I could just download the NESN app and larp like I'm still in New England, and just wait for the Sox to come through here if I want to go one of my team's games. The only reason for the Rays, Coyotes, and similar dunce cap franchises to keep on existing is to serve as hospitality houses for people like me.

 

> but the children will become fans

 

The children from all that sloppy 90s expansion are 25-30 years old now. Where are they?

[GDAWG]

10 hours ago, CDCLT said:

I'm a known Southern hockey defender, but I think that honestly the only thing that makes it work long-term is long-term success. Now, the Canes, Lightning, Preds, and Stars have all accomplished that (with Vegas well on the way), while the Yotes and Panthers have not. Obviously those two are also really hurt by their awful stadium locations but I do believe that a more successful Coyotes team could (emphasis on could) have worked. Now though? Unless the team can get that Tempe plan put through I think it's time to pull the plug. I think the team has sucked for too long to build any serious support. We're starting to see the effects of the generation raised with these teams in other markets, but Arizona hasn't paid off like other Sun Belt markets have, and I think it's because they've sucked so much.

 

I think hockey can work anywhere, even in Phoenix, but I think that the mishandling of the Coyotes has poisoned the well, so to speak. Move the team to Quebec, wait a bit, and when you decide to expand again for whatever reason, try again in Arizona.

 

Living in Dallas, this is 100% true.  Not many people thought it would work when they moved in 1993.  But youth hockey has increased rapidly since then and the Stars have opened 8 StarCenters for youth hockey and high school hockey (also gives the DFW area 8 venues for ice skating).  It has also led to the Allen Americans of the ECHL.  

[spartacat_12]

9 hours ago, who do you think said:

I don't get why it's so important to have muh footprint in Arizona (or anywhere else where it's simply not working) in an era where the world is smaller than ever, streaming is ubiquitous, everyone has cut cable, and people can very easily follow out-of-market teams by getting Center Ice/League Pass/etc, downloading RSN apps, or just flat-out pirating the games.

 

Not to bring the Rays across threads, but if I lived here 20 years ago I might have been a captive audience, and if I wanted to see major league baseball on a regular basis, I'm either watching a (Devil) Rays game on TV or going to a game. Maybe I become a convert, maybe not (probably not, since their best hitter was :censored:ing Julio Lugo). Now? I could just download the NESN app and larp like I'm still in New England, and just wait for the Sox to come through here if I want to go one of my team's games. The only reason for the Rays, Coyotes, and similar dunce cap franchises to keep on existing is to serve as hospitality houses for people like me.

 

> but the children will become fans

 

The children from all that sloppy 90s expansion are 25-30 years old now. Where are they?

 

Well there is a big difference from watching a sport on TV, and getting to see it in-person. In fact, most casual sports fans appreciate hockey a lot more once they see it live.

 

And as for the kids, a lot more of them are playing the sport now. Here are some quick USA hockey registration stats:

 

Registered players in Arizona 

1999 - 3,382

2022 - 9,232

 

Florida

1999 - 5,606

2022 - 18,725

 

North Carolina

1999 - 2,149

2022 - 7,191

 

Tennessee

1999 - 1,176

2022 - 4,932

 

Texas

1999 - 5,932

2022 - 16,032

 

So the NHL's presence is making an impact, even if it hasn't necessarily led to sold out crowds everywhere. We're even seeing a lot of American-born players coming out of non-traditional areas who grew up playing for the NHL sponsored youth teams (ex. Jakob Chychrun & Shayne Gostisbehere grew up playing for the Jr. Panthers in Florida). 

[Gary]

On 2/24/2023 at 8:24 PM, WestCoastBias said:

 

Well the Phoenix metro is the 10th largest in country with almost 5 million people, they can handle another arena. And I doubt ASU is hosting a lot of other events at their venues besides their own athletics anyway. Arizona Veterans Memorial Coliseum is 60 years old. Phoenix Rising's stadium is a bunch of temporary bleachers. Cardinals and D-Backs stadiums hold a totally different scale of an event, same with the race track. The only competition would be the Suns arena and their old arena in Glendale. The Glendale arena will be third on the pecking order since its on the outskirts of town and if I'm holding an event I'd rather do it in the brand new arena closer to Tempe and Scottsdale then the older one in downtown. 

Veterans Memorial Colosseum is strictly used for the Maricopa County and Arizona State Fair. The pnly time I have ever seen the arena in use is when some two bit hack plays at the fair. The Desert Diamond Arena is about to be sold off(rumor) to the Tohono O'odham Nation which is one of the tribes here that own soon to be 4 Desert Diamond Casino and resorts. They also get the first call for whatever concert or event goes at the arena. Besides the fact that Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport is about to file an injucntion to block the Arena from even being built. Sure we have plenty of venues, but when you think of most of them are old and decrepit or the fact west Phoenix also has the Desert Sky Pavilion that most acts would rather go to

[The_Admiral]

17 hours ago, who do you think said:

The children from all that sloppy 90s expansion are 25-30 years old now. Where are they?

 

On reddit, posting memes about the Hurricanes' choreographed victory dances

[The_Admiral]

6 hours ago, spartacat_12 said:

American-born players coming out of non-traditional areas who grew up playing for the NHL sponsored youth teams (ex. Jakob Chychrun 

second-generation player whose dad was from Quebec. Not only can you grow up to play hockey living anywhere if your dad played, it in fact seems to be about the only way you can play these days.

 

Speaking of dear old Quebec, we know that their numbers have fallen as New South suburbia's have risen. Is this drop a good thing too? Why or why not? If the game needs help growing right now, as it once did in New South suburbia, should we make efforts to Grow The Game there? Why or why not? 

[spartacat_12]

10 hours ago, the admiral said:

Speaking of dear old Quebec, we know that their numbers have fallen as New South suburbia's have risen. Is this drop a good thing too? Why or why not? If the game needs help growing right now, as it once did in New South suburbia, should we make efforts to Grow The Game there? Why or why not? 

 

Why would you think I would consider that a good thing? I love how the sun belt hockey haters seem to think that you hate Canada/traditional markets if you support the Coyotes staying in AZ.

 

Unlike a lot of hockey fans, I don't root for the sport to fail.

[who do you think]

On 2/28/2023 at 3:46 PM, spartacat_12 said:

 

Well there is a big difference from watching a sport on TV, and getting to see it in-person. In fact, most casual sports fans appreciate hockey a lot more once they see it live.

 

And as for the kids, a lot more of them are playing the sport now. Here are some quick USA hockey registration stats:

 

Registered players in Arizona 

1999 - 3,382

2022 - 9,232

 

Florida

1999 - 5,606

2022 - 18,725

 

North Carolina

1999 - 2,149

2022 - 7,191

 

Tennessee

1999 - 1,176

2022 - 4,932

 

Texas

1999 - 5,932

2022 - 16,032

 

So the NHL's presence is making an impact, even if it hasn't necessarily led to sold out crowds everywhere. We're even seeing a lot of American-born players coming out of non-traditional areas who grew up playing for the NHL sponsored youth teams (ex. Jakob Chychrun & Shayne Gostisbehere grew up playing for the Jr. Panthers in Florida). 

 

So these dead franchises that nobody outside of reddit follows or cares about are Actually Good ((c) admiral) because more wealthy southern kids named Tanner are getting boarded in pee-wee hockey. That's great. Great answer.

 

EDIT: And those southern kids are indisputably influenced by the Coyotes and Panthers, and totally aren't being raised as fans of some out-of-market team, the laughable convenience of which I mentioned above

[GDAWG]

On 2/28/2023 at 2:46 PM, spartacat_12 said:

 

Well there is a big difference from watching a sport on TV, and getting to see it in-person. In fact, most casual sports fans appreciate hockey a lot more once they see it live.

 

And as for the kids, a lot more of them are playing the sport now. Here are some quick USA hockey registration stats:

 

Registered players in Arizona 

1999 - 3,382

2022 - 9,232

 

Florida

1999 - 5,606

2022 - 18,725

 

North Carolina

1999 - 2,149

2022 - 7,191

 

Tennessee

1999 - 1,176

2022 - 4,932

 

Texas

1999 - 5,932

2022 - 16,032

 

So the NHL's presence is making an impact, even if it hasn't necessarily led to sold out crowds everywhere. We're even seeing a lot of American-born players coming out of non-traditional areas who grew up playing for the NHL sponsored youth teams (ex. Jakob Chychrun & Shayne Gostisbehere grew up playing for the Jr. Panthers in Florida). 

 

I don't know about Houston or San Antonio, but as I mentioned earlier, Dallas/Fort Worth is a successful market for the NHL, so I would suspect that a majority of these Texas kids playing hockey are from DFW.  

[tp49]

On 2/28/2023 at 3:46 PM, spartacat_12 said:

So the NHL's presence is making an impact, even if it hasn't necessarily led to sold out crowds everywhere. We're even seeing a lot of American-born players coming out of non-traditional areas who grew up playing for the NHL sponsored youth teams (ex. Jakob Chychrun & Shayne Gostisbehere grew up playing for the Jr. Panthers in Florida). 

You left out the biggest softball and most relevant guy to the thread...Auston Matthews who if I remember right is from Scottsdale.

[WestCoastBias]

On 2/28/2023 at 12:46 PM, spartacat_12 said:

 

Well there is a big difference from watching a sport on TV, and getting to see it in-person. In fact, most casual sports fans appreciate hockey a lot more once they see it live.

 

And as for the kids, a lot more of them are playing the sport now. Here are some quick USA hockey registration stats:

 

Registered players in Arizona 

1999 - 3,382

2022 - 9,232

 

Florida

1999 - 5,606

2022 - 18,725

 

North Carolina

1999 - 2,149

2022 - 7,191

 

Tennessee

1999 - 1,176

2022 - 4,932

 

Texas

1999 - 5,932

2022 - 16,032

 

So the NHL's presence is making an impact, even if it hasn't necessarily led to sold out crowds everywhere. We're even seeing a lot of American-born players coming out of non-traditional areas who grew up playing for the NHL sponsored youth teams (ex. Jakob Chychrun & Shayne Gostisbehere grew up playing for the Jr. Panthers in Florida). 

 

Arizona hockey on the rise with help from Coyotes, colleges and community (azpbs.org)

[monkeypower]

[The_Admiral]

New statue to be built outside the Coyotes' arena: