MLB 2021

[BBTV]

15 hours ago, GhostOfNormMacdonald said:

Me wanting the Expos back is based purely on their logo and the expirience of following a bi-lingual leage (can't quite get into the NHL or CFL). As someone born in 2000, I have 0 memories of the Expos existing so I just think it would be neat.

 

Shouldn't your avatar be partially transparent now?

[Sport]

11 hours ago, Gothamite said:

 

Objection, Your Honor - arguing facts not in evidence. 

 

I've argued plenty of times with evidence why it's the only reason. I'm not going to dig it up again so you can ignore it again. 

 

11 hours ago, Gothamite said:

When the Rays made their first World Series push, they were identified as the third most popular MLB club in town among baseball fans.  Behind the Yankees and Red Sox.  Third in their own hometown. 

 

That was 13 years ago, the team was only 10 years old at that point (with zero history of winning until that season), and there's been no change in their stadium situation. I'm willing to bet a more recent poll would skew more favorably towards the Rays, but none of that matters if their fans and the Red Sox/Yankees fans can't easily access the stadium to attend games. 

 

11 hours ago, Gothamite said:

There’s just zero evidence that the area will ever support the Rays.  None at all, other than wishful thinking. And hey, I love wishful thinking.  There’s nothing wrong with wishful thinking.  Brewers fans have subsisted on wishful thinking for half a century now.  

 

There's local TV ratings, traffic studies, Tampa residents telling us why the team struggles to draw, and the fact that the Lightning score good attendance in the easy to access centralized part of town that the Rays would ideally move. It's not wishful thinking. 

 

11 hours ago, Gothamite said:

If you want the Rays to stay in town, that’s awesome.  I can totally respect that.  I myself have no love for relocation.  But maybe we shouldn’t be insulting people who look at the facts and don’t see all the potential you do, okay?

 

I said you were an otherwise level-headed poster because on this issue you're don't "look at the facts". You look at one fact and ignore the rest. You constantly say "bad baseball market because bad attendance" while willfully dismissing the huge reason for their bad attendance. Your refusal to acknowledge that a bad stadium in a bad location might be hurtful to attendance just doesn't make sense. And here's the thing - I don't even care about the Rays and I have no love for the Tampa bay area. This isn't emotional for me. If the US lost Florida tomorrow I'd say, "good riddance". If the Rays move then they move. I just think we need to be fair about the situation and what their problems stem from. It's a simple simple problem of logistics. It's not "they just don't care enough about baseball down there". 

 

 

[Sport]

16 hours ago, gosioux76 said:

 

This is really the heart of the conundrum for the Rays.

 

They exist in metro area that, from the outset, faced questions over whether it would be a viable baseball market. And because they play in a terrible stadium in an even worse location, there's the theory that they never really got to test the market's viability. 

 

So if that you were your money, would you bet hundreds of millions on a new stadium in an attempt to prove the market works? 

 

 

The pickle the Rays owners are in right now is tough because any move to any available market whether that be Montreal or downtown Tampa would have inherent gambles to consider. Not saying Montreal wouldn't be good on their second try (funny enough a downtown stadium would help many of the attendance issues they struggled with at Olympic Park), but downtown Tampa you still have local ties with fans and you're already embedded in the business communities so you wouldn't have those upstart costs.

 

It's borderline miraculous that the team is as good as it is in the face of all of this. 

 

14 hours ago, tBBP said:

^ To add to that, there's one other thing to throw in here re: getting to the Trop and back: transit. Boston and New York (and other major metros) have light rail access to their stadia; Tampa does not. And ain't nobody in their right mind* finna burn up all their gas money going across one of three bridges (two being part of the same freeway, one of them being a toll bridge at that) to get to a stadium tucked next to what St. Pete laughingly calls its downtown on no weeknight then drive all the way back to where they come from when they gotta get their babies to bed, then get themselves to bed, then get up early enough to get their babies up for school and everything that goes along with that.  It's a thing called priorities, for some people.  Plus, the regular commoner folk in TSP ain't got money to be throwing around like that as it is.  So yeah...add that one into the pot as well.

 

  Hide contents

*Yes there's still plenty of rational-minded people walking around Earth.

 

 

Pretty much. I live 6 miles from Great American Ballpark as the crow flies and I work downtown Cincinnati. I went to, I think, 12 games this season. At least half of those were spontaneous, "hey anyone want to go to the Reds game tonight?" outings. One of those games I got a text from a friend at 7pm and I was at the game before the bottom of the first inning. There's a bus line by my house that takes me straight to the stadium too. Unless you live in St Pete you just can't do a spontaneous weeknight Rays game. For more than half of the market it's just not reasonable to regularly attend Rays games and no amount of winning will make that obstacle easier for fans. 

 

I did the drive when I was in Tampa for work a couple years ago because I like visiting stadiums when I'm on the road. I also wanted to see what all the fuss was about with getting there. I went from the airport, well after rush hour, and it was still a :censored:!

[GhostOfNormMacdonald]

2 hours ago, BBTV said:

 

Shouldn't your avatar be partially transparent now?

I would if I knew how. My usual move of just laying on top of things doesn't seem to work for photoshop

[Gothamite]

11 hours ago, Sport said:

I said you were an otherwise level-headed poster because on this issue you're don't "look at the facts". You look at one fact and ignore the rest. You constantly say "bad baseball market because bad attendance" while willfully dismissing the huge reason for their bad attendance.

 

I acknowledge that it’s one reason, but it isn’t enough of a reason.  It still doesn’t explain the massive apathy that Tampa Bay has shown the Rays, even when they’re one of the best teams in baseball. Even when they’re in first every game of the season. 
 

The Trop only excuses so much. 

 

11 hours ago, Sport said:

Your refusal to acknowledge that a bad stadium in a bad location might be hurtful to attendance just doesn't make sense. And here's the thing - I don't even care about the Rays and I have no love for the Tampa bay area. This isn't emotional for me. If the US lost Florida tomorrow I'd say, "good riddance". If the Rays move then they move. I just think we need to be fair about the situation and what their problems stem from. It's a simple simple problem of logistics. It's not "they just don't care enough about baseball down there". 

 

But yeah, it kinda is. 
 

You have no particular love for the Tampa Bay Area?  That’s cool. I myself have no particular animosity towards them.  And I have a burning hatred for relocation.   This isn’t emotional, it’s a cold, level-headed analysis of the only evidence we have.  YMMV. 

[SFGiants58]

Ultimately, I would argue that while Tampa Bay never got a fair shake, they never should’ve had a team in the first place. The folks leading St. Petersburg and Tampa’s different pushes for a team happily played into MLB owners’ hands.
 

They were a credible threat designed to get local owners to buy teams (e.g., the Twins, Pirates, Rangers, Mariners, and Giants) or for governments to shell out public money for new/renovated venues (White Sox and Athletics). Heck, Bob Lurie probably went into negotiations with Naimoli the Clown because Lurie knew the threat would get Bay Area businessfolk/CBS concerned (long story). They only got a team because Naimoli the Clown threw a fit and an antitrust lawsuit at MLB. 
 

The Trop was an ill-advised and far too premature decision from the start. It was put into place without a referendum, so nobody in Pinellas County had a say about where and how it’d be built. The whole project, St. Petersburg’s attempt to “one up” Tampa in some way (civic rivalry) ending up dooming baseball for the region before a team even threatened to move there.

Unless the area enacted a stadium plan better than The Trop, they didn’t deserve a team. 
 

@Gothamite, I wouldn’t say you are entirely wrong, but the stadium issue is the big problem that beget smaller problems (which you think are apparently larger than the stadium). Would it best to say that you think the stadium “poisoned the well” and created the problems you perceive as larger?

[JTernup]

On 9/29/2021 at 5:05 PM, dont care said:

The thing is that isn’t the only reason. The rays really don’t have a fan base. The reason being is that there are so many transplants they never had a chance to build one. Even those born and raised in Florida are more likely to be red sox and Yankees fans than they are rays fans. The stadium situation is the worst in baseball and no one will say other wise, but when you get the stadium more filled for red sox and Yankees games that shows you that the location is not the sole problem. It shows a sever lack of caring by the local fans. 

You really just say whatever you want with no evidence don’t you? How much time have you spent in Tampa or Florida?

[dont care]

20 minutes ago, JTernup said:

You really just say whatever you want with no evidence don’t you? How much time have you spent in Tampa or Florida?

I live there…

[selgy]

On 9/29/2021 at 3:12 PM, SFGiants58 said:

I really don’t have a soft spot for the Expos at all. The team died because the market and team did a fusion dance of failure. I think the current nostalgia movement is the product of rose-tinted glasses and is completely ignorant of the socioeconomic realities that doomed the Expos to relocation.

People like to pin everything on the ‘94 strike and Loria, but it’s not that simple at all. I’m not a Loria apologist, but he inherited a team run on the cheap in a market that nearly seceded from Canada.  The 1994 team, had they made the playoffs, would have just broken even. The fire sale would still happen and the Expos would become a dumpster fire again. He wasn’t willing to use private money for a new stadium? Well, Brochu (the previous owner) didn’t want to use it either. The minute that the original Bronfman sold the team, the Expos’ days were numbered.

Exactly. So many people like to crap on the Expo fans for what happened. But many don't understand the complex economic collapse of Quebec due to the failed secession and how that left the fans really struggling financially. 

I as a Rays fan try to correct other Rays fan when they get on "Montreal fans didnt support the Expos". They really did. Their political decisions impacted their area and then the team.  But it wasn't due to a lack of fandom. 

[selgy]

On 9/29/2021 at 5:05 PM, dont care said:

The thing is that isn’t the only reason. The rays really don’t have a fan base. 

 

Not true

[selgy]

On 9/29/2021 at 5:21 PM, dont care said:

What’s keeping rays fans from the stadium, yet Red Sox and Yankees fans can get to the stadium just fine? 

The Yankees/Red Sox come to St. Pete 9 games a year. Those games still usually aren't sell outs and the crowd is usually made up of about 50% of their fans. So they aren't doing all the heavy lifting. 
 

On 9/29/2021 at 9:38 PM, Gothamite said:

 

Objection, Your Honor - arguing facts not in evidence. 

 

When the Rays made their first World Series push, they were identified as the third most popular MLB club in town among baseball fans.  Behind the Yankees and Red Sox.  Third in their own hometown. 

If that is true (source please). Some of those younger fans are probably now having children of their own. You know. Building a fan base. That is how it works. We are only on our 2nd generation of fans. It takes time. Especially when people move here from out of state, insist on keeping loyalties to other teams, then point and go "look at your lacking fan base" when they are part of the problem. 

You say you live in Florida. Am I talking about you? 

[Gothamite]

10 hours ago, SFGiants58 said:

 

@Gothamite, I wouldn’t say you are entirely wrong, but the stadium issue is the big problem that beget smaller problems (which you think are apparently larger than the stadium). Would it best to say that you think the stadium “poisoned the well” and created the problems you perceive as larger?

That's a really interesting question.  But honestly?  No. 
 

Is the Trop a problem?  Yes.  Did it make the situation worse than it should have been?  Yes.  But “poisoned the well” connotes a certain inevitability that I just don’t see.
 

Winning cures everything.  And winning didn’t even make a dent in the Rays’ problem.  You put that bad stadium situation in virtually any other market, and fans would find a way to come out to see a World Series contender.  Or if not put them at the top of the attendance charts, at least keep them off the bottom. 

 

Look, the ballplayers know full well how bad the stadium situation is.  And even they have had to speak out about the terrible attendance, like Evan Longoria in 2010:

 

Quote

"We've been playing great baseball all year. Since I've been here in [2006], the fans have wanted a good baseball team. They've wanted to watch a contender," Longoria told reporters. "And for us to play good baseball for three years now, and for us to be in a spot to clinch again and go to the playoffs, we're all confused as to why it's only 15,000 to 20,000 in the building."

 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/news/story?id=5625055

 

Only two years removed from a World Series.   And while about to clinch the AL East.  That was extraordinary at the time. It’s still strange to see today.

 

Reading the article again now, I’m reminded that the area’s defenders used to say that winning would solve the problem. But it hasn’t.  It didn’t help during their World Series run.  It didn’t help the following year, when you would otherwise expect to see the attendance bump. And it didn’t help in any future year either, no matter how great the team was on the field.

 

Thats not to say that the don’t have die-hards.  Every team does. Montreal had theirs too.  And I have no doubt that the people arguing the case here on this thread are coming from a genuine place and well represent them.  But die-hards alone aren’t enough for a team to survive, much less thrive.  You need to tap into something larger, something that’s not always there.
 

Now, I do think that it’s possible the Montreal plan has indeed poisoned the well.  That might have been a step too far, and we might look back in decades to come as the point of no return, the final nail in the coffin, sealing the deal.  But the ballpark itself?  No. 

[SFGiants58]

1 hour ago, Gothamite said:

That's a really interesting question.  But honestly?  No. 
 

Is the Trop a problem?  Yes.  Did it make the situation worse than it should have been?  Yes.  But “poisoned the well” connotes a certain inevitability that I just don’t see.
 

Winning cures everything.  
 

 

Did winning cure the horrible traffic situation? Did it cure the bad location? Did it cure the terrible guts of the stadium? No, it didn’t.

 

I guess that’s where we have different opinions on the matter. The stadium doomed the team from day zero. If Stu has his way, we will never know if Tampa Bay could have been a good market because the stadium kept it from getting a fair chance.

 

1 hour ago, Gothamite said:

 

And winning didn’t even make a dent in the Rays’ problem.  You put that bad stadium situation in virtually any other market, and fans would find a way to come out to see a World Series contender.  Or if not put them at the top of the attendance charts, at least keep them off the bottom. 

 

We’ve repeatedly explained the nigh-on impossible traffic situation and the average TV ratings.

 

1 hour ago, Gothamite said:

Look, the ballplayers know full well how bad the stadium situation is.  And even they have had to speak out about the terrible attendance, like Evan Longoria in 2010:

 

 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/news/story?id=5625055

 

Only two years removed from a World Series.   And while about to clinch the AL East.  That was extraordinary at the time. It’s still strange to see today.

 

Oakland would be in a similar boat, but that’s its own issue with far more proven examples of ownership “poisoning the well.”

 

1 hour ago, Gothamite said:

 

Reading the article again now, I’m reminded that the area’s defenders used to say that winning would solve the problem. But it hasn’t.  It didn’t help during their World Series run.  It didn’t help the following year, when you would otherwise expect to see the attendance bump. And it didn’t help in any future year either, no matter how great the team was on the field.

 

Those defenders didn’t take into account urban planning and logistics regarding a relatively-isolated (yet congested) venue in a city that sadly doesn’t have the public transit infrastructure nor the outside development to make the neighborhood accessible.

 

1 hour ago, Gothamite said:

Now, I do think that it’s possible the Montreal plan has indeed poisoned the well.  That might have been a step too far, and we might look back in decades to come as the point of no return, the final nail in the coffin, sealing the deal.  But the ballpark itself?  No. 

I respectfully disagree about the ballpark not being the root of all issues. Building the venue in St. Pete’s Gas Plant District was the true final nail in the coffin. Everything since has been a funeral procession (getting blue-balled by MLB) and dumping of said coffin into a fancy mausoleum vault (the Rays’ existence). Reading all of Stadium for Rent and countless articles (from the ‘80s to the modern day) made it apparent to me.

 

The market never truly had a fair chance. An inaccessible white elephant kept potential fan engagement low. Hockey, a sport far less traditional for the region, managed to be good in that market. Hockey. Maybe the Rays deserve a chance that isn’t The Trop. Of course, this could just be an Arizona Coyotes situation all over again. But it’s still worth thinking about.

 

[Sport]

13 hours ago, Gothamite said:

 

I acknowledge that it’s one reason, but it isn’t enough of a reason.  It still doesn’t explain the massive apathy that Tampa Bay has shown the Rays, even when they’re one of the best teams in baseball. Even when they’re in first every game of the season. 

 

The "massive apathy" isn't "massive apathy". TV ratings are "good", attendance is bad, and the stadium is hard to get to for most of the fanbase, especially the areas with the most income. It's a really really simple equation. 

 

13 hours ago, Gothamite said:

 

The Trop only excuses so much. 

 

It excuses the entirety of their problem. Put "The Trop" in the St. Pete of every MLB market, remove all public transit, and it'd be the same situation in every MLB market.  

 

13 hours ago, Gothamite said:

 

But yeah, it kinda is. 
 

You have no particular love for the Tampa Bay Area?  That’s cool. I myself have no particular animosity towards them.  And I have a burning hatred for relocation.   This isn’t emotional, it’s a cold, level-headed analysis of the only evidence we have.

 

Except for ignoring the very real evidence of literal geography and how traffic/fan behaviors work. Your cold, level-headed analysis is based on 15 year old anecdotes and a poll taken before the team ever had a winning season. 

 

13 hours ago, Gothamite said:

 

 YMMV. 

 

It does. I've explained why many times. Have a good one. 

[JTernup]

36 minutes ago, Sport said:

 

TV ratings are "good", attendance is bad, and the stadium is hard to get to for most of the fanbase, especially the areas with the most income. It's a really really simple equation. 

 

 

It excuses the entirety of their problem. Put "The Trop" in the St. Pete of every MLB market, remove all public transit, and it'd be the same situation in every MLB market.  

 

 

Except for ignoring the very real evidence of literal geography and how traffic/fan behaviors work. Your cold, level-headed analysis is based on 15 year old anecdotes and a poll taken before the team ever had a winning season. 

 

 

It does. I've explained why many times. Have a good one. 

Absolutely all of this. Talking about fan support in 2008 when the franchise had only 10 abysmal years makes no sense. Ignoring the Trop or saying it’s not the root of the problem is just asking Mrs. Lincoln about the play. 
 

It’s become abundantly clear that many people believe the Rays are a lost cause and no context can change their mind. I understand that perspective because I felt that way. Then I moved to Florida and decided I’d support the team because I love baseball and can’t consistently watch my Rockies without paying for MLB TV and staying up until 1 AM waaay too frequently. Also, I knew the Rays NEED people like me to watch games on TV and buy tickets and merch and it’s ridiculous to be critical of transplants not supporting the team and then being one of them.

 

Once I did this I was shocked by two things 1) How bad the Trop situation is and 2) How passionate Rays fans actually are. You don’t have to take my word for it but I do think anyone who thinks the Rays need to move should really consider if there is another market that makes sense. IMO there are 31 possible MLB markets going forward (Vegas, MTL, and the 29 we have excluding Oakland) and MTL is far from a slam dunk. So at some point, moving them would just be kicking your problems to another market.

[AstroCree]

Red Sox on track to missing the postseason since this was announced.

 

[Gothamite]

2 hours ago, SFGiants58 said:

Did winning cure the horrible traffic situation? Did it cure the bad location? Did it cure the terrible guts of the stadium? No, it didn’t.

 

And that does indeed say something about the market. 
 

2 hours ago, SFGiants58 said:

We’ve repeatedly explained the nigh-on impossible traffic situation and the average TV ratings.

 

The explanations haven’t been all that convincing, though. 
 

“Average” television ratings hurt your argument, especially since the Rays’ television ratings are artificially boosted by an extra number of games against the Yankees and Red Sox, Tampa Bay’s two favorite teams. 

 

2 hours ago, SFGiants58 said:

The market never truly had a fair chance.

 

Respectfully, here’s where we part company.

 

Of course the market had a fair chance.  They were given a team.  A team that they chose not to support.  Now, we can argue about why they chose not to support it, but we can’t argue that they didn’t. And still don’t, no matter how good the team is. 
 

Maybe there was indeed a fatal flaw in the expansion.  But if there was, then it was MLB giving in to the leverage and putting a team in a location they didn’t want to put a team in.

 

And let me make it clear - this isn’t a moral judgement.  Being a good baseball market doesn’t make you taller or better looking, doesn’t raise test scores or full potholes or improve the sewer system.  You don’t need an MLB club to be a great city or a great place to live.  Portland OR is a fine city.  They were a fine city as a AAA city and a A city and are now a fine city without organized baseball at all.

[Gothamite]

49 minutes ago, JTernup said:

How passionate Rays fans actually are.

 

Nobody denies that they are passionate.  
 

There aren’t very many of them.  

 

49 minutes ago, JTernup said:

I do think anyone who thinks the Rays need to move should really consider if there is another market that makes sense. IMO there are 31 possible MLB markets going forward (Vegas, MTL, and the 29 we have excluding Oakland) and MTL is far from a slam dunk.

 

this is by far the best argument in defense of Tampa Bay.   I’m not sold on any of the alternatives. 

 

 

[SFGiants58]

1 hour ago, Gothamite said:

 

And that does indeed say something about the market. 

 

It does. Short-sightedness and inter-municipal competition doomed the market from the start.

 

1 hour ago, Gothamite said:

The explanations haven’t been all that convincing, though. 
 

 

They’re more convincing than a decade-old poll, quotes from Longoria, and an overly-simplistic conclusion that ignores the urban planning obstacles for a team in the market.

 

1 hour ago, Gothamite said:

“Average” television ratings hurt your argument, especially since the Rays’ television ratings are artificially boosted by an extra number of games against the Yankees and Red Sox, Tampa Bay’s two favorite teams. 
 

 

First off, do you mind linking the poll or perhaps a more recent update of said poll? That would help your argument greatly. I would like more up-to-date data.  Tangentially, do we even know if the Yankees and Red Sox inflate ratings? For all we know, the ratings are fairly even for the Rays all season. Maybe they’re not doing amazing TV numbers when playing the Guardians or A’s, but I’d argue that the Red Sox and Yankees don’t inflate numbers too much. You’ve made a logical assumption based on a poll from over a decade ago, while a new poll might have different statistics (probably one in which the Rays are now fifth behind the Dodgers and Mets ). 

 

1 hour ago, Gothamite said:

Respectfully, here’s where we part company.

 

Of course the market had a fair chance.  They were given a team. A team that they chose not to support.  Now, we can argue about why they chose not to support it, but we can’t argue that they didn’t.

 

I think that’s where we differ. “Fair chance,” by my estimation, includes an accessible (by car or transit) and median-quality stadium. That’s why I’d argue there wasn’t a fair chance. However, I completely see your point in regards to the continued lack of support. I don’t agree with it and believe it’s somewhat ignorant of the mitigating factors, but it is still fairly logical.

 

1 hour ago, Gothamite said:

And still don’t, no matter how good the team is. 

 

Maybe 2008-10 should’ve been the breaking point for St. Petersburg to consider public transit routes for the area around The Trop. The Gas Plant District was a “blighted” area before the stadium (“blighted” being a dogwhistle) and has yet to see much development outside of the stadium itself. Public transit would’ve improved the situation remarkably and encouraged investment in the area. It wouldn’t be akin to the transformation of China Basin, but it’d be a big step up from “downtown St. Pete.”

 

Of course, to bring in a valid excuse, supporting Stu post-“split cities” is akin to supporting the Expos after Brochu gutted the team and refused to spend. It’s less the fans fault and more on ownership.

 

1 hour ago, Gothamite said:

 

Maybe there was indeed a fatal flaw in the expansion.  But if there was, then it was MLB giving in to the leverage and putting a team in a location they didn’t want to put a team in.

 

That’s where I tend to be – a mistake of an expansion prompted by deeply misguided city officials/businessmen and teams trying to inspire local owners to buy their teams (except Calvin Griffith, because that guy was a nasty tub of feces).

 

At the very least, the 1998 expansion should’ve been contingent on a new stadium within five-ten years in a better location. The Trop should’ve only been a temporary venue before being reduced to a Bucs training camp site, indoor concert hall, or large-scale convention center (think NYCC but even bigger). 

Also, fun fact for A’s fans, Wally Haas totally used Tampa Bay as bait also. You wonder why I think his “giving the territory rights away for free” thing wasn’t entirely benevolent?

 

1 hour ago, Gothamite said:

 

And let me make it clear - this isn’t a moral judgement.  Being a good baseball market doesn’t make you taller or better looking, doesn’t raise test scores or full potholes or improve the sewer system.  You don’t need an MLB club to be a great city or a great place to live.  Portland OR is a fine city.  They were a fine city as a AAA city and a A city and are now a fine city without organized baseball at all.

If I may make a moral judgement, I’d St. Petersburg really wanted to “one-up” Tampa in the ‘80s, light rail/commuter trains/an expanded bus route system would’ve had far more benefits than a baseball park.

 

“Must be accessible by multiple means of public transit” should be a must in developing parks. A streetcar to Miller Park would be very welcome, as would some form of light rail into Arlington or any other park that isn’t transit friendly.

[Gothamite]

1 hour ago, SFGiants58 said:

I think that’s where we differ. “Fair chance,” by my estimation, includes an accessible (by car or transit) and median-quality stadium. That’s why I’d argue there wasn’t a fair chance.

 

Sure, if everything was totally different the situation wouldn’t be the same!

 

I think you and I actually agree more than we disagree here. 

 

The stadium is where it is.  Public transit is what it is.  People have to decide whether or not to support the team they have.  Tampa Bay has decided not to.  Which is a totally legitimate choice.  But they were given a fair chance to make it.