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10 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:


NCAI members voting unanimously, with extensive relationship established between the team and tribal communities? Yes.

 

Just one tribe approving it? Never.

 

If even one tribe refuses the name, Cleveland should change the name.

 

But not all the tribes have formally approved the Spokane Indians or Florida State Seminoles. They only have approval from one tribe. 

 

I think we can agree that a white guy owning a team with the name Indians, or a Mexican guy owning a Jewish bakery, might be odd and/or unethical but not illegal. 

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2 hours ago, Marlins93 said:

I'm not well versed in all of the different versions of the Mets' black era, but this cap really makes me retch, especially once you compare it to what they're wearing now (and wore earlier in their existence). The white is just too pronounced to the point where the blue and orange get swallowed up. Same goes for the wordmark in the Bobby V photo. It's just hard for me to comprehend why fans would actually like these.

 

i'm with you.

 

basically, these are the two era of the mets black uniforms:

 

1998 only: 'METS' script jersey with traditional skyline patch worn with 'hybrid' cap (blue brim, black crown, two-color 'NY') with blue accessories both at home and on the road.

1999: all black cap, black road alt introduced. alternate black skyline patch added to those jerseys. all black cap now paired with both black jerseys. 

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8 minutes ago, WSU151 said:

 

But not all the tribes have formally approved the Spokane Indians or Florida State Seminoles. They only have approval from one tribe. 


The Seminoles only needed it from the Seminoles (as it refers to just one group). Spokane should be using a name that better reflects the communities they work with on a regular basis (but “Indians” is more OK here than in Cleveland).

 

Cleveland AL won’t even pay a franchise player like Lindor to stick around. They most certainly won’t reach out to Native American communities if it means sacrificing cash.

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This is a good article from the mothership about Spokane:

 

https://news.sportslogos.net/2020/07/19/authenticity-collaboration-respect-the-story-behind-the-spokane-indians/baseball/

 

Cleveland could do this possibly, I dunno. Seems like it'd be an investment with a solid return. Probably not as much goodwill between local tribes and Cleveland due to Wahoo, though. 

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2 hours ago, SFGiants58 said:

Native American mascots, even something as mundane as “Indians” need permission from tribes. The Blackhawks’ and Spokane Indians’ work with tribes makes their names ok, as well as the aforementioned Florida St.

 

 

Still agree about the Blackhawks? 

 

https://aicchicago.org/statement-on-blackhawks/

 

and 

 

 

 

Admittedly, I'm pushing the boundaries of the board's rules. This might be MOD EDIT territory...I dunno. If so, just know I appreciate the discussion, man, as we wait for actual MLB news. 

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7 hours ago, WSU151 said:

The Spokane Indians are owned by a white guy...and it's great that they have a solid relationship with local tribes...but in no way is there an IP issue there. 

 

I'm not entirely sure that's true.  But if there's really no issue there, it's because they don't use any native iconography and they came to an agreement with the local nation.  And the team pays them for it.  In the absence of that licensing deal, there would absolutely be an issue.

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6 hours ago, WSU151 said:

But not all the tribes have formally approved the Spokane Indians or Florida State Seminoles. They only have approval from one tribe. 

 

Actually, Florida State had to get (and did get) permission from all three tribes with a claim to the name "Seminoles". 

 

Quote

I think we can agree that a white guy owning a team with the name Indians, or a Mexican guy owning a Jewish bakery, might be odd and/or unethical but not illegal. 

 

Is anyone really saying "illegal"?  Let me be clear, I'm saying using NA imagery without a licensing deal is immoral and unethical, but I don't think I've ever said it should be illegal.

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2 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

 

Actually, Florida State had to get (and did get) permission from all three tribes with a claim to the name "Seminoles". 

 

Though not all NCAI tribes, which I was trying to get across (even if I did so poorly). 

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6 hours ago, WSU151 said:

This is a good article from the mothership about Spokane:

 

https://news.sportslogos.net/2020/07/19/authenticity-collaboration-respect-the-story-behind-the-spokane-indians/baseball/

 

Cleveland could do this possibly, I dunno. Seems like it'd be an investment with a solid return. Probably not as much goodwill between local tribes and Cleveland due to Wahoo, though. 

 

Part of the problem is that there are no local tribes in Ohio.  They were eliminated, relocated, and exterminated one hundred and seventy years ago.

 

The largest tribe formerly of Ohio has since evolved into the Peoria Tribe of Oklahoma, who are on the record against Native American sports imagery and names.  So looking for a local connection doesn't exactly help the team's attempt to justify the name.

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Just now, WSU151 said:

Though not all NCAI tribes, which I was trying to get across (even if I did so poorly). 

 

But "Seminoles" (and other specific tribal names) is a unique case.  Not every First Nation has an equal claim to another nation's name.  

 

"Indians", on the other hand, is generic enough to belong equally to all Native people.

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6 hours ago, WSU151 said:

If Cleveland were to find some arrangement with a tribe or the NCAI, would you be okay with the name? 

 

One tribe?  Probably not, especially since there are no tribes in or around Cleveland for them to deal with. But with the NCAI?  Sure.  That seems right.

 

Because it's not up to me.  I'm a white guy from Brooklyn, it's not my place to say yea or nay.  It's the right of the people so "honored" to decide if they want the tribute.

 

If Cleveland could secure the permission from the NCAI or any other nationwide organization representing Native Americans, who am I to say those people are wrong?

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I somehow missed the Mets black jersey discussion.  
For what it’s worth, not a single soul in the fanbase asked for the drop shadow set. They only want the black cap and jersey as an alternative. That’s it. Everyone knows the Mets have a nearly perfect set and we would love to keep it that way. How the 86 set gets some love, we’d like to see the 2000’s black uniform receive the same treatment. 
I don’t see any harm in it as an alternative or hell, a 1 time only thing. People here act as if the Mets will take it the wrong way and bring back the drop shadows full-time. 

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2 hours ago, insert name said:

They only want the black cap and jersey as an alternative. That’s it. Everyone knows the Mets have a nearly perfect set and we would love to keep it that way. How the 86 set gets some love, we’d like to see the 2000’s black uniform receive the same treatment. 
I don’t see any harm in it as an alternative or hell, a 1 time only thing. People here act as if the Mets will take it the wrong way and bring back the drop shadows full-time. 

I don't think anybody is saying or thinking that at all. A one-time thing is fine but anything more frequent or semi-regular than that is too much.

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10 hours ago, insert name said:

I somehow missed the Mets black jersey discussion.  
For what it’s worth, not a single soul in the fanbase asked for the drop shadow set. They only want the black cap and jersey as an alternative. That’s it. Everyone knows the Mets have a nearly perfect set and we would love to keep it that way. How the 86 set gets some love, we’d like to see the 2000’s black uniform receive the same treatment. 
I don’t see any harm in it as an alternative or hell, a 1 time only thing. People here act as if the Mets will take it the wrong way and bring back the drop shadows full-time. 

 

if it became a regular alt, i would humble submit that they change their blue road alt to orange letters/white outline (and move the home alt cap to the pair with it), then ditch the home blue alt. no need for two blue alts.

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19 minutes ago, ptaylor said:

For YEARS, this place screamed for the Mets' black jerseys and caps to be kicked to the curb. And now, because of boredom or something, we suddenly want them back?? After they made the World Series in their classic unis too. I'm scratching my head. 

Not "this place". Some people IN "this place".

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1 hour ago, ptaylor said:

For YEARS, this place screamed for the Mets' black jerseys and caps to be kicked to the curb. And now, because of boredom or something, we suddenly want them back?? After they made the World Series in their classic unis too. I'm scratching my head. 

90s nostalgia is in right now, so therefore many want the black back. I don't really think it's much more than that. And besides, the board is only *sometimes* a hivemind, and this doesn't seem to be one of those cases.

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2 hours ago, ptaylor said:

For YEARS, this place screamed for the Mets' black jerseys and caps to be kicked to the curb. And now, because of boredom or something, we suddenly want them back?? After they made the World Series in their classic unis too. I'm scratching my head. 

 

I don’t really want them to come back...but if they do, I’m trying to think of ideas that could improve the black alternate aesthetic. 

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