MLB 2021-22 Hot Stove/Picket Line Thread

[BBTV]

I agree with your points on the values of competition. But pro sports is simply not built on competition. It can’t be. It’s built on generating revenue and getting butts in seats. It has to be. It hurts fans who are in places where their team simply would never be able to win the division to have only meaningless games to attend (and pay full price for) after June or July. MLB would 100% die if it couldn’t keep its fans incentivized to go to games and pay $15 for beers.

I’d personally not go to a game in august or September if it was basically an exhibition. Maybe when I was younger I would, but not now.  It’s the team’s fault for not being competitive, but it’s the fans that are powerless and are robbed of entertainment. 
 

so again, you’re not wrong, but I think if you’re all about real competition, then amateur sports are more for that, rather than pro sports which whether it’s the networks or the leagues themselves, have to manufacture ways to keep people engaged. 

[The_Admiral]

On 3/11/2022 at 6:35 AM, 8BW14 said:

Will anyone see the stupid Purina dog food patch on the Cardinals uniforms and go out and buy more dog food? What’s the upside for the advertiser? I’ve never seen an ad on a professional sports uniform and not been immediately turned off by it.

 

Yeah, it's not going to go over well. Unlike the NBA, MLB doesn't have a sympathetic media apparatus to help them out with messaging on this. (Of minor interest to me is that hockey media was long accused of being provincial and overprotective, but it's now quite activist/adversarial and it's NBA media that feels it has a duty to be on the same team, as it were.) Nobody's going to say "being against a Purina logo on the Cardinals' uniforms means you want to deny shared revenue to black bodies" and nobody would have believed it anyway.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

No one said being anti-GE logos made you racist. You're arguing with a caricature of a caricature.

 

3 hours ago, BBTV said:

I’d personally not go to a game in august or September if it was basically an exhibition. Maybe when I was younger I would, but not now.  It’s the team’s fault for not being competitive, but it’s the fans that are powerless and are robbed of entertainment.

 

I can't imagine bringing a family to a baseball game. At least $100 for tickets, another $100 for food, plus maybe a hat or shirt, and then parking (especially if you're in Atlanta or another anti-transit marker). That's nearing $300 for three hours of entertainment compared to, I don't know, going to a park or something.

 

I was trying to think of alternative entertainment -- like a movie -- but that's also three digits for a family, so I don't know anymore. Things are expensive. Too bad we're not all baseball players.

[ManillaToad]

3 hours ago, the admiral said:

 

Yeah, it's not going to go over well. Unlike the NBA, MLB doesn't have a sympathetic media apparatus to help them out with messaging on this. (Of minor interest to me is that hockey media was long accused of being provincial and overprotective, but it's now quite activist/adversarial and it's NBA media that feels it has a duty to be on the same team, as it were.) Nobody's going to say "being against a Purina logo on the Cardinals' uniforms means you want to deny shared revenue to black bodies" and nobody would have believed it anyway.

 

I don't follow this take. What push back against the uniform ads do you think is going to happen? There's been next to none since the advertisements were announced. MLB fans aren't stalwarts for tradition like they used to be. They've been beaten into submission by Manfred's regime and will accept anything so long as they get to see balls fly into the stands.

[The_Admiral]

I don't think baseball fans have been beaten into submission, and I think average fans are more traditional about the game than you're giving them credit for. Being a traditionalist is part and parcel of being a baseball fan in the first place; I don't know anyone who liked ghost runners and seven-inning doubleheaders except maybe one or two weird people here.

[SFGiants58]

I would love to have a group of people under the age of 30 determine how to best market the sport for those under 30. The NBA, NFL, and even the NHL can manage it.

 

Also, the kind of people who have debuted in the past 20 years have been nowhere near as culturally impactful as the stars of the NFL and NBA.* Even the NHL had mainstream cultural relevance with the whole Patrick Kane thing. No matter what kind of marketing is behind them, no baseball player of the past 20 years has risen to the level of mainstream pop culture relevance. It's a mix of the "good guy who avoids the media" that the NHL suffers from and the regionalization of the sport.

[BBTV]

45 minutes ago, the admiral said:

I don't think baseball fans have been beaten into submission, and I think average fans are more traditional about the game than you're giving them credit for. Being a traditionalist is part and parcel of being a baseball fan in the first place; I don't know anyone who liked ghost runners and seven-inning doubleheaders except maybe one or two weird people here.

 

My friends that I was season-ticket-holders with actually gave up their tickets because of how late the games were running.  And we took the subway home... I can't imagine how bad it was getting for people who drive and don't get home until after 11 on a weeknight.  7-inning double-headers were dumb, but the ghost runner is brilliant, and (at least here) has been in place in many beer leagues and social leagues for years, so I was kinda used to it (though I didn't realize how awesome it made extra innings.)

 

Traditionalists and the lack of promotion for young black players is killing the sport.  I know people have been saying the sport is dying for decades and it never does, but I legit think it is.  Maybe Mike Trout can get into trouble for grabbing some girl's :censored: and the sport can say "look at us!  We're just as cool as the other sports!  We have scandals too!"

[SFGiants58]

22 minutes ago, BBTV said:

 

Traditionalists and the lack of promotion for young black players is killing the sport.

 

This. Exactly this.

 

22 minutes ago, BBTV said:

 Maybe Mike Trout can get into trouble for grabbing some girl's and the sport can say "look at us!  We're just as cool as the other sports!  We have scandals too!"

I was thinking of him having an Allentown-kind of incident, if you get my drift.

 

 

The “he murdered somebody” argument should spread to Cooperstown.

[ManillaToad]

1 hour ago, the admiral said:

I don't think baseball fans have been beaten into submission, and I think average fans are more traditional about the game than you're giving them credit for. Being a traditionalist is part and parcel of being a baseball fan in the first place; I don't know anyone who liked ghost runners and seven-inning doubleheaders except maybe one or two weird people here.

 

I'm not saying they like the changes, I'm saying they accept them. Baseball fans are absolutely still the most traditional in American sports, but there's not going to be a significant pushback against the uniform ads.

[BBTV]

36 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

 

This. Exactly this.

 

I was thinking of him having an Allentown-kind of incident, if you get my drift.

 

 

The “he murdered somebody” argument should spread to Cooperstown.

 

Resolved: Mike Trout murdering a prostitute while hopped up on goofballs could literally save the sport.

[SFGiants58]

9 minutes ago, BBTV said:

 

Resolved: Mike Trout murdering a prostitute while hopped up on goofballs could literally save the sport.

Sex workers are still the “less dead.” It needs to be an attractive white woman with a PhD or a wealthy family. The true crime podcasters will eat it up.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

1 hour ago, BBTV said:

Traditionalists and the lack of promotion for young black players is killing the sport. 

 

Very true. I remember Rickey Henderson, Bo Jackson and Darryl Strawberry being the coolest guys on the planet.

 

The only black player I can think of in MLB now is Andrew McCutchen, and to that end, there are basically no players with a national profile. It's like the WWE-ization of a real sports league; no one gets to be bigger than the brand.

[tBBP]

11 hours ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

 

Very true. I remember Rickey Henderson, Bo Jackson and Darryl Strawberry being the coolest guys on the planet.

 

The only black player I can think of in MLB now is Andrew McCutchen, and to that end, there are basically no players with a national profile. It's like the WWE-ization of a real sports league; no one gets to be bigger than the brand.

 

If dude could quit getting injured so often, you could add Byron Buxton to that conversation--but 1) I doubt anyone outside Minnesota even knows who he is; and 2) the Twins don't exactly have a "national" appeal themselves (though their ballpark should definitely be in the conversation). 

 

Speaking of, all this leads me to wonder how Brandon Phillips was never [marketed as] more of a "stat", considering all the web gems dude turned in on 2B over the years... could it be just because he played in Cincinnati? Would it be different if he was a Yankee or a Dodger?

 

(While I'm on this, and this is probably more a public opinion poll: aside from the Yankees, maybe the Dodgers, and I suppose the Cardinals albeit for different reasons, exactly how many other MLB clubs do have anything close to a national profile?)

[DG_ThenNowForever]

I don't know who that is. However, everyone even half knowledgeable about the NBA knows who Karl-Anthony Towns is, and he's playing in the same city. Giannis and Aaron Rodgers are two of the biggest players in their respective sports; I can't name a single Brewer. 

 

The Dodgers have Mookie Betts and Clayton Kershaw. The Yankees have Aaron Judge. As a very, very casual fan, those are about the only players I know. Those two and Ohtani and, of course, Mike Trout. And I guess Bryce Harper.

 

So teams with a national profile are the two LA teams, the two New York teams, and probably the Red Sox, Astros and Cardinals.

[DEAD!]

11 hours ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

 

Very true. I remember Rickey Henderson, Bo Jackson and Darryl Strawberry being the coolest guys on the planet.

 

The only black player I can think of in MLB now is Andrew McCutchen, and to that end, there are basically no players with a national profile. It's like the WWE-ization of a real sports league; no one gets to be bigger than the brand.

 

I could only think of Mookie Betts to add. 

Man, looking back on the black players I remember watching as a youngster,

Mookie Wilson, Andre Dawson, Dave Winfield, Tony Gwynn, Dwight Gooden,  Devon White, Joe Carter, Barry Larkin, Kirby Puckett, Fred McGriff,  Barry Bonds, Ken Griffey Jr., Dave Stewart, and Lou Whitaker (because I was 2nd baseman in Little League and I happen to have a Lou Whitaker glove)

Yes, it's a shame there aren't as many black players, especially stars, these days. 

 

13 minutes ago, tBBP said:

(While I'm on this, and this is probably more a public opinion poll: aside from the Yankees, maybe the Dodgers, and I suppose the Cardinals albeit for different reasons, exactly how many other MLB clubs do have anything close to a national profile?)

 

Definitely the Red Sox and I could argue the Cubs have that profile as well.

(I am purposely excluding the Blue Jays)

 

[BBTV]

3 hours ago, tBBP said:

(While I'm on this, and this is probably more a public opinion poll: aside from the Yankees, maybe the Dodgers, and I suppose the Cardinals albeit for different reasons, exactly how many other MLB clubs do have anything close to a national profile?)

 

Red Sox, maybe Cubs. It's a smaller list than in NBA or NFL.

 

Not sure if Atlanta falls into that category anymore since it's been so long that TBS pushed them into everyone's house every day.

[dont care]

1 hour ago, BBTV said:

 

Red Sox, maybe Cubs. It's a smaller list than in NBA or NFL.

 

Not sure if Atlanta falls into that category anymore since it's been so long that TBS pushed them into everyone's house every day.

Yea I wouldn’t put Atlanta in there. They won the World Series last year and literally no one cares.

[SFGiants58]

5 minutes ago, dont care said:

Yea I wouldn’t put Atlanta in there. They won the World Series last year and literally no one cares.

 

And the only reason people outside of GA care is because of culture war reasons.

[infrared41]

MLB's biggest problem is that the on field product is really, really boring. Market all you want however you want. It won't change the fact that watching a game is almost, but not quite as exciting as watching a screen saver for three and a half hours. You gotta fix the game before you can go to work on all the other stuff.

[SFGiants58]

19 minutes ago, infrared41 said:

MLB's biggest problem is that the on field product is really, really boring. Market all you want however you want. It won't change the fact that watching a game is almost, but not quite as exciting as watching a screen saver for three and a half hours. You gotta fix the game before you can go to work on all the other stuff.

So, pitch clock?