2023-24 NBA Season thread

[MDGP]

2 hours ago, TrueYankee26 said:

Who got it worse, 76ers or the Nets who made this trade 

 

 

Here's the thing. The trade was horrible for the Nets, obviously, but it's somehow much worse for the Sixers.

 

The Sixers had Jrue Holiday, who became the team's youngest all-star ever, at the start of the process and traded him to the Pelicans for Nerlens Noel and a 1st round pick (This pick's trade tree ultimately ends with the Jimmy Butler debacle). They drafted Jahlil Oakafor 3rd in the 2015 draft; Kristaps Porzingis went 4th. They took Ben Simmons 1st in the 2016 Draft; Jaylen Brown went 3rd. They took Markelle Fultz 1st in the 2017 draft after trading the 3rd pick and a future 1st rounder to the Celtics. Jayson Tatum went 3rd. That future first rounder? That became Romeo Langford who the Celtics traded to the Spurs as part of their package for Derrick White. In 2019 the Sixers poached Al Horford from the C's. It was a disaster and Horford was traded to OKC who gladly traded him back in Boston and

 

The Nets made one bad trade, the Sixers somehow made the wrong decision regarding every single one of the Celtics core players in this title run.

[TrueYankee26]

3 hours ago, MDGP said:

 

Here's the thing. The trade was horrible for the Nets, obviously, but it's somehow much worse for the Sixers.

 

The Sixers had Jrue Holiday, who became the team's youngest all-star ever, at the start of the process and traded him to the Pelicans for Nerlens Noel and a 1st round pick (This pick's trade tree ultimately ends with the Jimmy Butler debacle). They drafted Jahlil Oakafor 3rd in the 2015 draft; Kristaps Porzingis went 4th. They took Ben Simmons 1st in the 2016 Draft; Jaylen Brown went 3rd. They took Markelle Fultz 1st in the 2017 draft after trading the 3rd pick and a future 1st rounder to the Celtics. Jayson Tatum went 3rd. That future first rounder? That became Romeo Langford who the Celtics traded to the Spurs as part of their package for Derrick White. In 2019 the Sixers poached Al Horford from the C's. It was a disaster and Horford was traded to OKC who gladly traded him back in Boston and

 

The Nets made one bad trade, the Sixers somehow made the wrong decision regarding every single one of the Celtics core players in this title run.

OOF

[Sport]

8 hours ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

It was a pretty good playoffs in the west, up until the Finals.

 

At least we can hurry up and get to the draft and free agency so basketball can be fun again.

 

Why does this particular championship feel so juiceless? I can't explain it, but there's like no aura about this Celtics team. 

 

 

6 hours ago, FiddySicks said:

I was just thinking how this feels like the final twist of “The Process” dagger. Sixers spent all that time getting cute only to watch the Celtics mostly sit where they were and it lead to a core that won another title. 

 

Good point. The things that bothers me about *Process stans were that they acted like it was a new and genius idea when tanking for picks is about as old a strategy as there is in pro sports. The only thing that was novel about Hinkie is how bad they were willing to be and for how long. The other thing is they act like tanking is the only method to build a winner. It's one way and it might be the worst way because it asks your fans to go through a ton of bulls***. And if it doesn't work then you're still at the bottom and you've wasted years on deliberately terrible basketball. Celtics and Nuggets and Bucks and Raptors and Warriors prove that you can build championship teams in ways that don't require years of tanking. 

 

*And this isn't just about Sixers fans. Reds Rebuild Twitter has the same disease where every minor league prospect is treated like they're twice as valuable in their minds as actual proven major leaguers because they get hooked on imagining potential. 

[Digby]

5 hours ago, Sport said:

Why does this particular championship feel so juiceless? I can't explain it, but there's like no aura about this Celtics team. 

 

 

They just did everything that's expected of them, and their stars aren't loud brash personalities, which is bad for narrative. Best regular-season team, a playoff run with only three losses, nine months of pretty consistent dominance... they were neither (edit: not "nearly") the plucky surprising underdog, nor a top-five all-time dominant team. Just pretty dang good, class of the league. It was all pretty anti-climactic compared with some of the 7-game epic series of recent years that we've grown used to.

 

I think the team hasn't got enough credit for just how well they played; all we heard about was how the Mavericks were the hottest team in the league for months and they would be a real problem for Boston, then the Celtics held them to less than 100 in all except the gentleman's-sweep/win-at-home rest game. 

[SavardToColton]

In regards to the juiceless/anti-climatic debate, I agree that it was mostly because of Boston taking care of business for 9 months pretty handily, but I will add that I  feel ESPN has phoned it in with their NBA production.  Just feels like Game 46 for that reason. Not sure if it's nostalgia saying "It felt bigger when I was a kid" as I grow older but can't say it's been good coverage either.

 

That said as a UF alum and Gator fan, happy for Al Horford. Definitely something that he won back to back in college but had to wait 17 years to reach the mountaintop in the pros, but he definitely deserves it. Being a contributor on a championship team this late into his career is also impressive.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

10 hours ago, Digby said:

 

 

 

Ice cold takes!

 

Listen, I was working backwards from "boy do I hate the Celtics!"

 

You can lead yourself into believing a lot after that, including the assured dominance of a Mavericks team that beat the team that beat the best team in the west.

 

You wonder what would have happened if Luka and Kyrie were able to ride their momentum right into a Finals series, rather than taking a week off between series. Based on this series, likely the same result.

 

 

Edit:

 

The biggest stories in basketball during the NBA Finals were Caitlin Clark getting trucked by opposing teams and her teammates doing :censored: all about it, and the Lakers losing out on a college coach who did a bizarre media tour after he stayed in Storrs.

 

The Celtics's core has been in championship contention for several years now and they finally broke through. If they're one and done, hopefully we can replace the 2008 "dynasty" with this one.

 

And congrats on the Celtics on winning their fifth title since the merger and the implementation of the three-point line. One more and they'll catch the Bulls.

[TrueYankee26]

ESPN phoned it in because they make their NBA pre game, half time and post game shows the Stephen A and Friends show

[SFGiants58]

24 minutes ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

And congrats on the Celtics on winning their fifth title since the merger and the implementation of the three-point line. One more and they'll catch the Bulls.

I hope the Lakers pick up Klay in the off-season and learn about how far he’s fallen into the “Westbrick brain zone.”* Or Draymond, because I would wish him upon a fanbase like theirs.
 

*My term for aging guys who can’t accept that they’re not perennial MVP contenders anymore.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

9 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

I hope the Lakers pick up Klay in the off-season and learn about how far he’s fallen into the “Westbrick brain zone.”* Or Draymond, because I would wish him upon a fanbase like theirs.
 

*My term for aging guys who can’t accept that they’re not perennial MVP contenders anymore.

 

They'll probably end up with Chris Paul and Klay on minimum deals and wonder why no one can play anymore in May. 

[Digby]

45 minutes ago, SavardToColton said:

In regards to the juiceless/anti-climatic debate, I agree that it was mostly because of Boston taking care of business for 9 months pretty handily, but I will add that I  feel ESPN has phoned it in with their NBA production.  Just feels like Game 46 for that reason. Not sure if it's nostalgia saying "It felt bigger when I was a kid" as I grow older but can't say it's been good coverage either.

 

 

My favorite ESPN moment last night was misidentifying some random woman as Jrue Holiday's wife. Jrue Holiday's wife is USWNT World Cup champion Lauren Holiday! She ought to be one of the most recognizable WAGs in the league, especially for ESPN producers!

[Sport]

  

1 hour ago, Digby said:

 

They just did everything that's expected of them, and their stars aren't loud brash personalities, which is bad for narrative. Best regular-season team, a playoff run with only three losses, nine months of pretty consistent dominance... they were nearly the plucky surprising underdog, nor a top-five all-time dominant team. Just pretty dang good, class of the league. It was all pretty anti-climactic compared with some of the 7-game epic series of recent years that we've grown used to.

 

I think the team hasn't got enough credit for just how well they played; all we heard about was how the Mavericks were the hottest team in the league for months and they would be a real problem for Boston, then the Celtics held them to less than 100 in all except the gentleman's-sweep/win-at-home rest game. 

 

I don't mean juiceless in a disparaging way. Just that businesslike consistency is a dull brand of sport. I'm not expecting you to care about that at all. I'd be thrilled if my team won any championship in any fashion. 

 

This is just me, but Boston fatigue isn't helping with this. If this roster had done with this while wearing the uniforms of the, IDK, Hawks then I might've been more into it. 

 

47 minutes ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

And congrats on the Celtics on winning their fifth title since the merger and the implementation of the three-point line. One more and they'll catch the Bulls.

 

Yeah I am kind of with you on this one. Like the Stanley Cups won when there were only five other teams are hardly the same thing as winning one now and we should probably recognize them as different achievements. 

 

Reminded me of a funny memory - In elementary school gym class our teacher was playing a game with us that involved answering sports trivia questions. Mr. Rolon was his name. One question was what NBA team has the most championships and all of us 90's kids who were in the thick of Bulls mania and only knew the Celtics as the crappy team that Rick Pitino coached all said the Bulls. Was so surprised to hear the Celtics had the most championships. 

[who do you think]

3 hours ago, Sport said:

Good point. The things that bothers me about *Process stans were that they acted like it was a new and genius idea when tanking for picks is about as old a strategy as there is in pro sports. The only thing that was novel about Hinkie is how bad they were willing to be and for how long. The other thing is they act like tanking is the only method to build a winner. It's one way and it might be the worst way because it asks your fans to go through a ton of bulls***. And if it doesn't work then you're still at the bottom and you've wasted years on deliberately terrible basketball. Celtics and Nuggets and Bucks and Raptors and Warriors prove that you can build championship teams in ways that don't require years of tanking. 

 

Not every team starts from the same place. The Celtics literally just won with two top three picks leading the charge; they just outsourced their tank to Brooklyn with the help of Billy King. Toronto was contending anyway and was a trade match with San Antonio (who wanted a quality player, not just picks and cap junk; power to them, they ended up winning the Wemby lottery anyway) for Kawhi. Golden State's entire run was made possible by a Minnesota brain fart (and they had been a league laughingstock for a looong time). The Bucks and Nuggets hit fluke home runs with the Giannis and Jokic (second round, not even broadcast live) picks that not one single person on this planet saw coming. 

 

Speaking of the Bucks, name a more hopelessly mid and forgettable NBA franchise in the 30 solid years between Nellieball fizzling out and Giannis emerging and putting them on the map. Won 50 games exactly once, rarely terrible, and if so never long enough to become notorious for it. Just a barrage of 35-45 win seasons starring guys you may or may not have heard of before with playoff appearances here and there, and if it was a playoff year they were gone in five. If Utah or Oklahoma City decides to take a flyer on Giannis before Milwaukee is even on the clock, they're probably still doing that. Why is that the way it should be done - just piddling along and hoping this 15th overall pick is the one that strikes gold?

 

Philly had nowhere else to go besides burning the whole thing to the ground. The Doug Collins teams were workmanlike defense teams comprised of Iggy and other people's trash, they had no on-court potential beyond playoff cannon fodder and no trade assets. The Elton Brand signing was a bust. They picked a bad year to have good lottery luck and picked the wrong guy anyway (2010, Evan Turner). The notable Iverson-era teams were just Iverson scoring the points and old role players doing the dirty work, nothing with trade value. Once they had enough couch change to trade for somebody they ended up with one-legged Chris Webber. Then they mangled the Iverson situation and dealt him for pennies on the dollar. (Their GM during this time? Billy King!)

 

All this to say, what the hell else was that franchise going to do to get themselves out of that hole of mismanagement and mediocrity, besides tank? Is their way the best way? Maybe, maybe not. But the Sixers had no other cards to play. Burn it down, get the biggest bites of the apple you can. Even if Embiid blows a fuse and demands a trade (lol), there's still enough to work with there now - and Morey's a good enough GM - that they shouldn't have to resort to Processing again. Morey can just keep churning assets like he did in Houston until another James Harden becomes available.

 

1 hour ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

 

Listen, I was working backwards from "boy do I hate the Celtics!"

 

You can lead yourself into believing a lot after that, including the assured dominance of a Mavericks team that beat the team that beat the best team in the west.

 

You wonder what would have happened if Luka and Kyrie were able to ride their momentum right into a Finals series, rather than taking a week off between series. Based on this series, likely the same result.

 

 

Edit:

 

The biggest stories in basketball during the NBA Finals were Caitlin Clark getting trucked by opposing teams and her teammates doing all about it, and the Lakers losing out on a college coach who did a bizarre media tour after he stayed in Storrs.

 

The Celtics's core has been in championship contention for several years now and they finally broke through. If they're one and done, hopefully we can replace the 2008 "dynasty" with this one.

 

And congrats on the Celtics on winning their fifth title since the merger and the implementation of the three-point line. One more and they'll catch the Bulls.

 

Need a tissue?

[The_Admiral]

57 minutes ago, TrueYankee26 said:

ESPN phoned it in because they make their NBA pre game, half time and post game shows the Stephen A and Friends show

 

Sometimes I feel the way I felt as a smarky wrestling fan who knew what ring psychology was and why Vince Russo was terrible. Are there legions of normal people outside of our bubble of media-adjacent/marketing-adjacent nerds who actually really love getting Stephen A. Smith's constant thoughts on everything and think all NBA coverage should just be about spending time with Stephen A. Smith? There must be, and their existence perplexes me. Barstool people, fundamentally, I get, but this?

[Digby]

 

6 minutes ago, who do you think said:

Philly had nowhere else to go besides burning the whole thing to the ground. The Doug Collins teams were workmanlike defense teams comprised of Iggy and other people's trash, they had no on-court potential beyond playoff cannon fodder and no trade assets. The Elton Brand signing was a bust. They picked a bad year to have good lottery luck and picked the wrong guy anyway (2010, Evan Turner). The notable Iverson-era teams were just Iverson scoring the points and old role players doing the dirty work, nothing with trade value. Once they had enough couch change to trade for somebody they ended up with one-legged Chris Webber. Then they mangled the Iverson situation and dealt him for pennies on the dollar. (Their GM during this time? Billy King!)

 

 

Underrated subplot to this year was the Celtics no longer having a direct connection to the Pierce/Garnett years but that they did have Holiday, a link via his presence on the Sixers in what we now know to be the Uncut Gems Series circa 2012.

[Sport]

2 minutes ago, who do you think said:

Why is that the way it should be done - just piddling along and hoping this 15th overall pick is the one that strikes gold?

 

Because that way doesn't put your fans through years of purposely bad basketball just for the hope of landing a first overall that strikes gold. Neither path is fail-proof, but one sucks less for the fans. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, who do you think said:

Philly had nowhere else to go besides burning the whole thing to the ground. The Doug Collins teams were workmanlike defense teams comprised of Iggy and other people's trash, they had no on-court potential beyond playoff cannon fodder and no trade assets. The Elton Brand signing was a bust. They picked a bad year to have good lottery luck and picked the wrong guy anyway (2010, Evan Turner). The notable Iverson-era teams were just Iverson scoring the points and old role players doing the dirty work, nothing with trade value. Once they had enough couch change to trade for somebody they ended up with one-legged Chris Webber. Then they mangled the Iverson situation and dealt him for pennies on the dollar. (Their GM during this time? Billy King!)

 

All this to say, what the hell else was that franchise going to do to get themselves out of that hole of mismanagement and mediocrity, besides tank? They had no other cards to play. Burn it down, get the biggest bites of the apple you can.

 

 

And the result of that only card to play has been what? Let's get out of the weeds. Point is, if you're shrewd you can build a championship winner/contender without shameless tanking like we've seen with a few recent champions. You can also build a team that maxes out in the second round with tanking if you're not shrewd. So like I said, tanking is not the only way to build a winning team. 

[who do you think]

2 minutes ago, Sport said:

Because that way doesn't put your fans through years of purposely bad basketball just for the hope of landing a first overall that strikes gold. Neither path is fail-proof, but one sucks less for the fans. 

 

 

 

And the result of that only card to play has been what? Let's get out of the weeds. Point is, if you're shrewd you can build a championship winner/contender without shameless tanking like we've seen with a few recent champions. You can also build a team that maxes out in the second round with tanking if you're not shrewd. So like I said, tanking is not the only way to build a winning team. 

 

Name what they should have done instead. Down to the exact moves. Go.

[Sport]

Just now, who do you think said:

 

Name what they should have done instead. Down to the exact moves. Go.

 

You're trying to argue against a point I'm not making. Stop. 

[who do you think]

Just now, Sport said:

You're trying to argue against a point I'm not making. Stop. 

 

[FiddySicks]

2 hours ago, SavardToColton said:

In regards to the juiceless/anti-climatic debate, I agree that it was mostly because of Boston taking care of business for 9 months pretty handily, but I will add that I  feel ESPN has phoned it in with their NBA production.  Just feels like Game 46 for that reason. Not sure if it's nostalgia saying "It felt bigger when I was a kid" as I grow older but can't say it's been good coverage either.

Yeah it’s weird because I find this Celtics team to already be one of the most forgettable champions I can remember, and it hasn’t even been 24 hours yet. I’m still pretty convinced when I think back about past champions, this Celtics team is always gonna be one I have trouble remembering. I just don’t find anything really compelling about this core. It feels like they sort of have this combination of doing what they were expected to do anyway, yet I still think they won it in a down year vs kinda meh competition.  None of this is their fault, either. I think it says more about how spoiled we’ve been as basketball fans than it does anything about this Celtics team. 

[The_Admiral]

44 minutes ago, FiddySicks said:

It feels like they sort of have this combination of doing what they were expected to do anyway, yet I still think they won it in a down year vs kinda meh competition.  None of this is their fault, either.

03/05/07 Spurs, in other words.