LeBron gives up #23!

[The_Admiral]

I don't need my sports icons to be nice guys. They're not my friends. I just watch them play sports.

[Burmy]

Sure the Heat might have the cap space but the Cavs can pay him more than any other team can.

That said, yes MJ might be the most hated person to many Cleveland fans.

Care to explain why exactly? MJ is probably the greatest to ever lace up a pair of shoes and hit the court, how could any basketball fan hate him? It's not like he's a huge douchebag or anything.

More like most hated basketball player but yeah one shot can change everything. Us Cavs fans have had to see it for all these years, it gets really painful to continue seeing.

Yeah, I'm guessing that Jordan's shot to win that game is right up there with the two AFC Championship games that they lost to John Elway's Broncos for gutpunch moments in Cleveland sports history. I can see why he isn't exactly beloved in Cleveland.

But of course, both pale in comparison to the Baltimore Ravens winning Super Bowl XXXV...

[spartacat_12]

Gretzky's number wasn't just retired by the NHL because he was a great player. When he played in L.A he created awareness of hockey in places that never had it before. [insert southern NHL team here] would probably not exist if it weren't for Gretzky. As for Lebron, it probably has a lot to do with jersey sales. I mean if he wanted to honour MJ why would he have waited this long to do it. He probably shouldn't have chosen another all time great's number though. He needs to choose one that he can make his own.

[chakfu]

No matter how big LeBron gets, he'll never be the best player ever to wear that number. Honestly, he'll never be the best player to wear number 6 either (he'll never eclipse either Bill Russell or Dr. J, and there may be a few others that I'm not aware of.)

Really? The clock is ticking, but I would think he's surpassed Dr. J already and still could surpass MJ. Russell is tougher to quantify, but if LeBron gets some rings, he can go down as the greatest ever. Numberswise, the only people that have ever done the things he's doing are Larry Bird, and MJ in the 2-3 year window when he quit hogging the ball.

You are on crack.

Not to say that he can't, maybe, in some bizarre parallel universe, but let's be real here. He's got waaaaaays to go there.

You think though? I admit that on a gut level, it really feels like LeBron has a way to go, with his lack of a championship, and a jump shot that doesn't seem as reliable as it should be. But statwise - the guy's put up two straights years of 28 pts, 7.5 rebounds, 7 assists. Oscar Robertson and Larry Bird are basically the only players to ever regularly put up similar numbers. Jordan reached that level during ONE season (probably the best statistical season in NBA history, in 1988-89 - if he played that way his whole career, THEN there wouldn't be much argument for anyone else as the greatest ever.)

But as for Dr. J, he was one of my favorites, although frankly I'm tooo young to remember watching him much. Obviously he is an all time great, but I really can't recall anyone putting him in the Russell/Wilt/Magic/MJ/Bird/Robertson tier of greatest ever candidates. Or even in the Kareem/Hakeem tier of also-rans.

But LeBron...statistically he's basically put up the greatest 5 year statistical run in NBA history - you could really only make an argument for Bird equaling those numbers. Lebron led a shaky supporting cast to 66 wins, and he's become one of the league's best defenders. And he's 24 years old still. If he takes even one step forward in improvement, we're might be looking at the greatest player ever. Two steps and there won't even be any argument.

Geez I guess this should have gotten moved to the general forum or whatever, oh well.

[crashcarson15]

Sure the Heat might have the cap space but the Cavs can pay him more than any other team can.

That said, yes MJ might be the most hated person to many Cleveland fans.

Care to explain why exactly? MJ is probably the greatest to ever lace up a pair of shoes and hit the court, how could any basketball fan hate him? It's not like he's a huge douchebag or anything.

More like most hated basketball player but yeah one shot can change everything. Us Cavs fans have had to see it for all these years, it gets really painful to continue seeing.

Yeah, I'm guessing that Jordan's shot to win that game is right up there with the two AFC Championship games that they lost to John Elway's Broncos for gutpunch moments in Cleveland sports history. I can see why he isn't exactly beloved in Cleveland.

But of course, both pale in comparison to the Baltimore Ravens winning Super Bowl XXXV...

That said, without those games and Jordan, Cleveland teams win multiple titles as the Cavs probably get 2 or so and the Browns you'd like to think woulda won at least one w/o the Broncos in their way.

[Gothamite]

Gretzky's number wasn't just retired by the NHL because he was a great player. When he played in L.A he created awareness of hockey in places that never had it before. [insert southern NHL team here] would probably not exist if it weren't for Gretzky.

And in many cases, the NHL would therefore be in much better shape.

But seriously, the two cannot objectively be equated. How did Gretsky improve either American or Canadian society outside of giving people somebody to root for or against?

[Jigga]

I don't need my sports icons to be nice guys. They're not my friends. I just watch them play sports.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is what we like to call perspective. I recommend that 'fans' get some.

[powersurge]

I don't need my sports icons to be nice guys. They're not my friends. I just watch them play sports.

Exactly.

I wish more people would realize that just because you can dunk a basketball over 40 guys or hit a golf ball within millimeters of a small hole from a billion yards away doesn't make you the greatest human being on earth. I've met enough sports guys in my life to realize that a lot of them are actually dicks. That being said, I don't agree with a sports icon being a dick but its a very common thing and just another one of those unfortunate realities that exist in life.

[STL FANATIC]

Gretzky's number wasn't just retired by the NHL because he was a great player. When he played in L.A he created awareness of hockey in places that never had it before. [insert southern NHL team here] would probably not exist if it weren't for Gretzky.

And in many cases, the NHL would therefore be in much better shape.

But seriously, the two cannot objectively be equated. How did Gretsky improve either American or Canadian society outside of giving people somebody to root for or against?

I'm not sure they have to be equated. The NHL didn't say we're going to treat you like Jackie Robinson and retire your number league wide. They just said we're going to retire your number league wide. I don't think they'd argue the players impacts were the same.

And in both cases the league-wide retirement was a mistake.

[jimbojohnny56]

Is this guy that self absorbed to believe only the best player he grew up watching and seeing on countless TV Ads deserves to have his number retired league wide. At the same time he decides to not wear the so called God of basketball's number anymore and chooses the number 6. The number 6 was only worn by the lowly Bill Russell who only won nearly twice as many championships than the former and dominated the league just as much in his time. LeBron learn your history brother! Pick the number 1 that would be perfect for a guy like yourself.

[Gothamite]

Is this guy that self absorbed

Yes. You can stop right there.

[tBBP]

I have my own opinion on the best player the NBA has known. I wasn't alive to watch the man play live, but I've watched plenty of film on the guy. If you want my opinion, the only modern-day player currently that comes close to the guy is Jason Kidd.

The guy is Oscar Robertson.

Sure...he wasn't all flashy, didn't wow with awe-inspiring athleticism, but the guy was consistent. And he was highly versatile. More than that, however, I pin my opinion on this one point:

Some players might achieve a triple-double in a game here and there. This guy averaged a triple-double...over the course of a whole season. Only player ever to do so. Oh...and the guy also managed to win a championship. (Cuz, you know, around here, you gotta have the bling.)

That's my argument and I'm sticking to it.

[Buster]

Maybe it's to sell more jerseys like Kobe Bryant did.

[BBTV]

Didn't they have to actually change the rules because Wilt Chambarlain was so dominant? Wouldn't that have to make him at least #2 to Jordan's #1?

[Quillz]

Rivera was grandfathered in because he was wearing 42 before the leaguewide retirement. After he retires, nobody else can wear it ever again.

I think Mo Vaughn was wearing 42 on the Mets at the time and was similarly grandfathered in, which I found odd because you'd think New York would've retired 42 for Robinson already.

Robinson played for the Brooklyn Dodgers, but yes, the LA Dodgers long retired #42 before 1997. I think it was retired just a few years after Robinson quit playing.

[Quillz]

Didn't they have to actually change the rules because Wilt Chambarlain was so dominant? Wouldn't that have to make him at least #2 to Jordan's #1?

I don't know about Chamberlain, but I believe UCLA was so dominant in basketball when Kareem played for them (something like 11 championships in a row), that the NCAA literally banned DUNKING for a few years... And it still didn't stop UCLA from dominance.

[Gothamite]

Didn't they have to actually change the rules because Wilt Chambarlain was so dominant? Wouldn't that have to make him at least #2 to Jordan's #1?

At the very least. But much more likely above Jordan.

[BBTV]

Didn't they have to actually change the rules because Wilt Chambarlain was so dominant? Wouldn't that have to make him at least #2 to Jordan's #1?

I don't know about Chamberlain, but I believe UCLA was so dominant in basketball when Kareem played for them (something like 11 championships in a row), that the NCAA literally banned DUNKING for a few years... And it still didn't stop UCLA from dominance.

From NBA.com

http://www.nba.com/history/players/chamberlain_bio.html

During his career, his dominance precipitated many rules changes. These rules changed included widening the lane, instituting offensive goaltending and revising rules governing inbounding the ball and shooting free throws (Chamberlain would leap with the ball from behind the foul line to deposit the ball in the basket).

[Gothamite]

Rivera was grandfathered in because he was wearing 42 before the leaguewide retirement. After he retires, nobody else can wear it ever again.

I think Mo Vaughn was wearing 42 on the Mets at the time and was similarly grandfathered in, which I found odd because you'd think New York would've retired 42 for Robinson already.

Robinson played for the Brooklyn Dodgers, but yes, the LA Dodgers long retired #42 before 1997. I think it was retired just a few years after Robinson quit playing.

Fifteen, more like. But the point holds.

Jackie Robinson's number was one of three retired in a group in 1972, along with Sandy Koufax and Roy Campanella. The first three numbers retired by the Dodgers, FWIW.

[chakfu]

Didn't they have to actually change the rules because Wilt Chambarlain was so dominant? Wouldn't that have to make him at least #2 to Jordan's #1?

I don't know about Chamberlain, but I believe UCLA was so dominant in basketball when Kareem played for them (something like 11 championships in a row), that the NCAA literally banned DUNKING for a few years... And it still didn't stop UCLA from dominance.

From NBA.com

http://www.nba.com/history/players/chamberlain_bio.html

During his career, his dominance precipitated many rules changes. These rules changed included widening the lane, instituting offensive goaltending and revising rules governing inbounding the ball and shooting free throws (Chamberlain would leap with the ball from behind the foul line to deposit the ball in the basket).

But then Russell owned Chamberlain head to head, at least from a wins/losses, making Chamberlain #2 to Russell's #1...it goes on and on, I think you can make a great case for 6 guys as the greatest ever. It seems like the most knowledgeable old timers really tend to name Oscar Robertson as the greatest. One thing I think you can do is eliminate guys like Kareem/Shaq/Olajuwon - they're really close to the top, but I'm not sure you can make much argument to put them over Russell or Chamberlain, so they're out of the picture.

The tricky thing is the comparisons across positions (in additions to eras.) But I think you can settle on the top centers as Russell/Chamberlain, top SF as Bird, top SG as MJ, tops PGs as Magic and Robertson. And you can eliminate any PF, because any true power forward who was good enough to be the greatest ever would have moved over and played center. Duncan is probably the greatest PF ever, simply because he is an all-time great, but nowhere near greatest ever, C who moved over. Lots of guys could have done that.