All-Time Basketball Draft DISCUSSIONS Thread

[pmoehrin]

The biggest issue I have with these drafts is guys like Kevin Durant. Someone like that I feel should be ineligible to be drafted because you can't evaluate them the same way as you would a player with 15 years experience that's been retired for 10 years.

With someone like Durant you have to look at it one of two ways. Either this pick is being made assuming they stopped playing tomorrow, or the pick is being made based on what your seeing with him at his peak, in which case every player has to be evaluated like that and throw career stats out the window because the three year peak is the only thing you need to look at. Those kinds of questions don't matter with guys like Chamberlain, Jordan, Isiah, Bird, Magic, etc. because we have their whole body of work in front of us to go on. We don't know whats ultimately going to become of Kevin Durant. He could win five NBA titles or get hurt tomorrow and be done for his career. Both are possibilities.

If you assume he stops playing tomorrow Kevin Durant is not even a top 200 player, which I don't think will ultimately end up being the case, but if you go by the three year peak he's just as good as someone like Dominique Wilkins. But like hell I'm going to say that a guy like Durant can somehow even hold a candle to someone with the career of Dominique at this point. He hasn't even scored 1/3 of the points Dominique put up for his career.

I don't really have an answer for this either. I just don't think its possible to evaluate someone such as Durant with a resume that's clearly incomplete when talking about all-time lists.

[Lights Out]

Dave Debuscherre: one of the most underrated players around, IMO, and one of the greatest power forwards in NBA history. He'll add tough defense to this Clipper squad.

[infrared41]

Dave Debuscherre: one of the most underrated players around, IMO, and one of the greatest power forwards in NBA history. He'll add tough defense to this Clipper squad.

He was on my list. Not one of the three I mentioned earlier, but a player I planned on picking if he was still around when I got to my 6th pick. Excellent pick.

[Lights Out]

Here's my roster:

PG - Isiah Thomas

SG - Michael Jordan

SF - Scottie Pippen

PF - Dave Debuscherre

C - ???

So far, I feel I've put together a balanced team with something for everyone - a ball-dominant player, an excellent passer, and of course, some tough defensive players.

[pmoehrin]

If you want to talk about underrated players and guys that get no respect, Hal Greer might be at the top of the list.

To me the only two guys I would put ahead of him at the SG position would be Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. Hands down the best shooting guard during the 1960's.

Greer's numbers don't look all that impressive until you actually take a look at what everyone else in the league was doing. Leads all shooting guards in minutes played and points scored just about every single season during the 1960's and is top three in rebounds and assists virtually every year during the 1960's for shooting guards.

7 time all-NBA second team. Outside of Jordan and Kobe find me another shooting guard that can say they were first or second team that many times in their career.

I think if you want to talk about underrated guys in NBA history Hal Greer might be at the top of that list. Had he played with the benefit of the three point line, he may have been able to average 25+ a night in alot of seasons and seeing him ranked alongside Peja Stojakovic on Basketball-reference.com is a real insult to his ability because he was a far better player then Peja ever was.

My starting lineup will look like this.

PG-Bob Cousy

SG-Hal Greer

SF-Vince Carter

PF-Bob Pettit

C-Wilt Chamberlain

Defensively not the greatest. Cousy and Chamberlain were great defensive players but the rest were about average. Offensively though good look stopping that. Two scoring champions in Chamberlain and Pettit. Two other guys that led their position in points virtually every single year of their career in Cousy and Greer. And another guy who nearly won a scoring title in Vince Carter on the wing. Not to mention the fact that I have two guys that lead the league in assists in the starting lineup in Cousy and Chamberalin, and Greer did play some point in his career, so ball movement will not be an issue.

[infrared41]

Just want to let you guys know that I won't be able to make a pick until 7pm or so. Sorry for the hold up.

[pmoehrin]

All I'm going to say with Mutombo is that if they put Rodman in the Hall they have to put in Dikembe as well. Defensively its about a push between the two, and Mutombo has the edge offensively and longevity wise. Plus character wise Mutombo is as good of a guy as you'll ever find.

[infrared41]

You can take Bob Lanier off the board. Can't believe he lasted until the 5th round. Some of the players taken ahead of him are just mind boggling.

[AnythingChicago]

My starting line-up. Not bad, if I do say so myself.

PG- John Stockton

SG- Tracy McGrady

SF- Grant Hill

PF- Karl Malone

C- Moses Malone

Are we going to do a separate thread after this thing for voting on who has the best team?

[pmoehrin]

My starting line-up. Not bad, if I do say so myself.

PG- John Stockton

SG- Tracy McGrady

SF- Grant Hill

PF- Karl Malone

C- Moses Malone

That's basically the polar opposite of what I have strategy wise. That is a big, bruising starting five with exception of Stockton.

McGrady and Hill can run a little, but I think a team like that would be far better off trying to keep it a half court game. The shortest guy you have in the lineup after Stockton is 6'8" If you were to take out the three point shot that might be the best team hands down.

[Lights Out]

PG - Isiah Thomas

SG - Michael Jordan

SF - Scottie Pippen

PF - Dave DeBusschere

C - Dwight Howard

Zeke oops to Dwight... Jordan in the clutch... DeBusschere crashing the boards... Pippen, Dwight, and DeBusschere with the lockdown D... man, I wish this team was real.

[pmoehrin]

PG - Isiah Thomas

SG - Michael Jordan

SF - Scottie Pippen

PF - Dave DeBusschere

C - Dwight Howard

That team is going to have to play garbage ball.

Outside of Jordan nobody is really a big scorer. They can score points but everyone outside of Jordan and Isiah made their bones on defense and the only one on the team who's not a solid defensive player is Isiah.

Someone like Larry Brown would love to coach a team like that. That's his philosophy in a nutshell. Have one big time scorer, a distributing PG, and have everyone else primarily focus on defense.

[Lights Out]

Weirdly, I liked both the SSOL Suns and the tough "garbage ball" style of the '90s Heat/Knicks rivalry, so I could have gone either way.

[infrared41]

fnz just grabbed a player I was hoping would sneak by and last a little longer. Bernard King lasting until the 5th round is a little baffling.

[pmoehrin]

If I had to assign coaches for teams given the starting lineups I would go something like this.

I didn't assign Phil Jackson or Red Auerbach to anyone because I don't think that would be fair. But I tried to match up coach philosophies with how the teams were built. Some were tougher then others and I'm more then open to explain why I gave you this particular coach because its all opinion based.

New Jersey Nets Don Nelson

LA Clippers Larry Brown

Talk 'N Text Phone Pals Pat Riley

Spirits of St. Louis George Karl

Kentucky Colonels Red Holzman

Chicago Bulls Dick Motta

Cincinnati Royals Lenny Wilkins

Indiana Pacers Rick Adelman

Atlanta Hawks John MacLeod

Flint Tropics Jerry Sloan

Baltimore Bullets Gregg Popovich

San Antonio Spurs Doug Moe

Charlotte Bobcats Jack Ramsey

[infrared41]

PG - Isiah Thomas

SG - Michael Jordan

SF - Scottie Pippen

PF - Dave DeBusschere

C - Dwight Howard

That team is going to have to play garbage ball.

Outside of Jordan nobody is really a big scorer. They can score points but everyone outside of Jordan and Isiah made their bones on defense and the only one on the team who's not a solid defensive player is Isiah.

Someone like Larry Brown would love to coach a team like that. That's his philosophy in a nutshell. Have one big time scorer, a distributing PG, and have everyone else primarily focus on defense.

Zeke could hang up 40 pretty much any night he felt like it. The problem was the Pistons were a better team when he was scoring in the 20's. Pippen would have been a much bigger scorer had he played his career on a different team. You really think Scottie Pippen couldn't have scored 23-25 a game in his prime?

[pmoehrin]

PG - Isiah Thomas

SG - Michael Jordan

SF - Scottie Pippen

PF - Dave DeBusschere

C - Dwight Howard

That team is going to have to play garbage ball.

Outside of Jordan nobody is really a big scorer. They can score points but everyone outside of Jordan and Isiah made their bones on defense and the only one on the team who's not a solid defensive player is Isiah.

Someone like Larry Brown would love to coach a team like that. That's his philosophy in a nutshell. Have one big time scorer, a distributing PG, and have everyone else primarily focus on defense.

Zeke could hang up 40 pretty much any night he felt like it. The problem was the Pistons were a better team when he was scoring in the 20's. Pippen would have been a much bigger scorer had he played his career on a different team. You really think Scottie Pippen couldn't have scored 23-25 a game in his prime?

I didn't say they were bad scorers, just that they weren't great scorers. Pippen was a good offensive player, great defensive player. Isiah was a scoring point guard and a great one at that, but that's not a position where your best scorer generally comes from. Usually teams that do have their leading scorer coming from the PG position aren't great offensively. Doesn't mean they are a bad offense, and by all means if the guard can score let him go score. About the only team I can think of that relied primarily on their PG for points and was a great offensive team was the Cincinnati Royals of the 1960's, but Oscar Robertson was just a freak of nature when it came to putting up points.

For a team like that if Isiah and Scottie are both scoring 20+ a night that means they're either blowing the other team out, or there's a serious problem with the way the offense is being run. Jordan should be the only guy on that team above 25 a night. Everyone else should be around 15 with DeBusschere right around 10. I wouldn't expect them to be a fast team therefore not a high scoring team and if you have Michael Jordan that's your first scoring option.

[Eye]

My team is super cool and good.

PG - Oscar Robertson. A guy who can not only score, but makes everyone around him better.

SG/SF - Kevin Durant. Probably top 3 player in the NBA right now, definitely top 5. I picked him based on what he has done so far, but with this pick, I noticed that it does add somewhat of a real draft feel to this pick. Nobody knows how is career will turn out, but it looks pretty damn good so far.

SG/SF - Dominique Wilkins. One of the greatest dunkers of all time. A scoring machine.

PF - Dirk Nowtizki. Unique player in the best possible ways. Can stretch the offense in ways that almost no other player in NBA history can due to his versatility. The greatest European to play in the NBA.

C - Dikembe Mutombo. A defensive monster. Fits my team perfectly with all the offensive talent that I picked so far.

[infrared41]

I didn't say they were bad scorers, just that they weren't great scorers. Pippen was a good offensive player, great defensive player. Isiah was a scoring point guard and a great one at that, but that's not a position where your best scorer generally comes from. Usually teams that do have their leading scorer coming from the PG position aren't great offensively. Doesn't mean they are a bad offense, and by all means if the guard can score let him go score. About the only team I can think of that relied primarily on their PG for points and was a great offensive team was the Cincinnati Royals of the 1960's, but Oscar Robertson was just a freak of nature when it came to putting up points.

For a team like that if Isiah and Scottie are both scoring 20+ a night that means they're either blowing the other team out, or there's a serious problem with the way the offense is being run. Jordan should be the only guy on that team above 25 a night. Everyone else should be around 15 with DeBusschere right around 10. I wouldn't expect them to be a fast team therefore not a high scoring team and if you have Michael Jordan that's your first scoring option.

My point was that Zeke and Scottie weren't great scorers because they didn't need to be. Zeke could have easily been a 2 guard; hell, he practically was. If memory serves, he was the leading scorer on those great Pistons teams. Same deal with Pippen. He didn't need to be the Bulls top scoring option for obvious reasons. If Scottie had played elsewhere in the prime of his career, I think he would have been a much different player, and a top scorer.

EDIT: Just looked it up. Pippen was the Bulls leading scorer when Jordan was playing baseball. Thomas was either the leading scorer or within a ppg or less of being the leading scorer on those Pistons teams.

[pmoehrin]

My team is super cool and good.

PG - Oscar Robertson. A guy who can not only score, but makes everyone around him better.

SG/SF - Kevin Durant. Probably top 3 player in the NBA right now, definitely top 5. I picked him based on what he has done so far, but with this pick, I noticed that it does add somewhat of a real draft feel to this pick. Nobody knows how is career will turn out, but it looks pretty damn good so far.

SG/SF - Dominique Wilkins. One of the greatest dunkers of all time. A scoring machine.

PF - Dirk Nowtizki. Unique player in the best possible ways. Can stretch the offense in ways that almost no other player in NBA history can due to his versatility. The greatest European to play in the NBA.

C - Dikembe Mutombo. A defensive monster. Fits my team perfectly with all the offensive talent that I picked so far.

Very balanced team between offense and defense. I don't think Durant would do well at the guard position, because he turns over the ball alot and isn't a good passer. But that's a team that can run the floor or play physical. That's also you gave you Pat Riley as a coach. He's someone that can run either style of play.