NBA back to Seattle? NHL too?

[illwauk]

When people say "traditional hockey markets", isn't that just another way of saying "place where it snows heavy sometimes and ponds might freeze over"?

I always took it to mean a place where hockey culture is engrained in local kids at a young age all the way through adulthood... but, yeah... your description is what those places usually look like.

[The_Admiral]

I wish we could've let hockey maintain an economy of scale as a largely regional pursuit with a few bones charitably thrown to a few huge cities west of the Mississippi (not counting those along them) or south of StL/DC. It's just never going to be a great deal more than what it is. The smarter business plan would have been to supersaturate the Midwest and Northeast such that their teams could be just as relevant and culturally ingrained as the other local teams, rather than settling for mere existence everywhere.

Now, of course the NHL could not have made it to the 21st century in its 1990 form. The only American team west and south of the aforementioned lines was Los Angeles. That had to change. They were going to wind up in Denver and Dallas eventually, but had it been by expansion rather than at the expense of traditional markets, the league would have been better off. Arguably, the markets themselves would have been better off, too: it's looking like parachuting ready-made contenders on those cities made for a tenuous relationship. Once those teams no longer had the wealthiest owners with unlimited spending capabilities, interest dropped precipitously. Considering that the NHL in Anaheim was little more than a cash grab by the execrable Bruce McNall, and Miami has given us nothing (and I don't want to hear about how you're "growing the game" when you bolt Miami proper for the warm, white-Yankee-transplant embrace of Broward County), this would've been a far better expansion phase, perhaps to be followed with Milwaukee and Hamilton, probably Atlanta, maybe Houston. Instead, the league sacrificed its base, chased the real estate bubble, and now there are dumpster fires all over the map.

[bosrs1]

Bigger markets who were profitable have lost teams because they lack an arena. I hope Oilers fans don't brush this off their shoulders.

On the bright side Seattle is an actual hockey market, and hopefully this spawns Portland into getting a new arena, and getting a team.

A new arena in Portland? The Rose Garden isn't even 20 years old.

[Gothamite]

In stadium years, 20 is way over the hill.

How many teams in the big 4 play in a building that old that hasn't undergone extensive renovation?

[OMMF]

In stadium years, 20 is way over the hill.

How many teams in the big 4 play in a building that old that hasn't undergone extensive renovation?

Off the top of my head:

Orioles

Rays

Pistons

Jazz

Red Wings

Not saying one way or the other about any of these arenas (okay, maybe Tropicana) but there are still a few oldies out there.

(I may be wrong about any or all of the list. Like I said, off the top of my head.)

[bosrs1]

In stadium years, 20 is way over the hill.

How many teams in the big 4 play in a building that old that hasn't undergone extensive renovation?

Off the top of my head:

Orioles

Rays

Pistons

Jazz

Red Wings

Not saying one way or the other about any of these arenas (okay, maybe Tropicana) but there are still a few oldies out there.

(I may be wrong about any or all of the list. Like I said, off the top of my head.)

Well it's also not 20 years. It's 17. And there are a :censored:load of stadiums/arenas in the big 4 that are over 17 years old.

[gosioux76]

Bigger markets who were profitable have lost teams because they lack an arena. I hope Oilers fans don't brush this off their shoulders.

On the bright side Seattle is an actual hockey market, and hopefully this spawns Portland into getting a new arena, and getting a team.

Portland has a newer arena. The Rose Garden opened in 1995 and seats 18,000 for hockey.

And also needs renovations to its locker rooms, a new press box, and some other updates to make it an NHL arena.

A few years back, a group of local businessmen and the state sports authority had a few private meetings to discuss the possibility of attracting a NHL team to the Rose Garden. We haven't heard anything since, and I doubt we ever will.

Portland doesn't have enough corporate support to keep two winter sports franchises afloat. Any gain made by an NHL team would likely come at the expense of the Blazers, at least when it comes to corporate sponsors and suite leases.

On top of that, you have the issue of Blazers' owner Paul Allen also owning the stadium, giving him a lot of control over the situation.

Not sure I agree with that. Blazers went like 20 years with consecutive sell outs, and the Timbers of the MLS have a long line of people trying to get season tickets. They also put up some of the best numbers in the WHL attendance wise.

But renovation is clearly needed.

BTW HATE Canadian media saying Seattle and Portland are not traditional hockey markets. Both cities have had some form of a team for over 100 years now. That pre dates: Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg and Saskatoon. Not saying they love hockey more than those cities, but they are defiantly hockey fans there. The city of Portland even picks up around 35 Canucks games on a local network.

There's a big difference between fan support and corporate support. A Portland NHL team may have sellouts, but for a franchise to be successful it needs corporate backers, the companies willing to pony up the cash to be sponsors and lease luxury suites.

In a city with just two Fortune 500 companies -- one of which is an incredibly low profile Boeing supplier, far from the type to shell out sponsorship dough ? I question whether Portland has the corporate wealth necessary to back another big sports franchise.

[The_Admiral]

but they are defiantly hockey fans there

Okay how the hell do you misspell "definitely" as "defiantly"? How does this even happen? Or are you saying that the hockey fans there defy expectations? Ugh.

[Norva]

but they are defiantly hockey fans there

Okay how the hell do you misspell "definitely" as "defiantly"? How does this even happen? Or are you saying that the hockey fans there defy expectations? Ugh.

When I misspell "definitely" my computer always tries to correct it as "defiantly" for some strange reason. Probably the same thing here.

[Lee.]

There's a big difference between fan support and corporate support. A Portland NHL team may have sellouts, but for a franchise to be successful it needs corporate backers, the companies willing to pony up the cash to be sponsors and lease luxury suites.

In a city with just two Fortune 500 companies -- one of which is an incredibly low profile Boeing supplier, far from the type to shell out sponsorship dough ? I question whether Portland has the corporate wealth necessary to back another big sports franchise.

I'd have to say that although Winnipeg is the exception to the rule, I'd think that Portland, which is roughly 3x larger than Winnipeg, might be able to pull this off.

It's a weird town, though, so who the hell really knows.

[BBTV]

but they are defiantly hockey fans there

Okay how the hell do you misspell "definitely" as "defiantly"? How does this even happen? Or are you saying that the hockey fans there defy expectations? Ugh.

When I misspell "definitely" my computer always tries to correct it as "defiantly" for some strange reason. Probably the same thing here.

It happens to me all the time when "I'm in phone".

[RedSox44]

but they are defiantly hockey fans there

Okay how the hell do you misspell "definitely" as "defiantly"? How does this even happen? Or are you saying that the hockey fans there defy expectations? Ugh.

It happens way more often than you think. It's honestly one of my biggest pet peeves, and more people should be called out about it.

[gosioux76]

There's a big difference between fan support and corporate support. A Portland NHL team may have sellouts, but for a franchise to be successful it needs corporate backers, the companies willing to pony up the cash to be sponsors and lease luxury suites.

In a city with just two Fortune 500 companies -- one of which is an incredibly low profile Boeing supplier, far from the type to shell out sponsorship dough ? I question whether Portland has the corporate wealth necessary to back another big sports franchise.

I'd have to say that although Winnipeg is the exception to the rule, I'd think that Portland, which is roughly 3x larger than Winnipeg, might be able to pull this off.

It's a weird town, though, so who the hell really knows.

I understand your point, and it makes perfect sense. But I think the difference here is that we're talking about the NHL and NBA. You'd have two franchises that play during the same time of the year competing for the same sponsorship dollars. There just isn't the corporate bandwidth here to accommodate two teams without one stealing revenue from the other.

If we were talking about a MLB team coming into Portland, I think this would be a different conversation (though only ever so slightly). Seasonality is important. I could see companies making the case for sponsoring two teams in the same market if they reach consumers at a different time of the year. (Even that's a stretch, though.)

I know Winnipeg also has the Goldeyes and the Blue Bombers, but I would guess the sponsorship costs for those leagues would be significantly lower than that of an NHL or NBA franchise, allowing for a lower cost of entry for smaller businesses. I'm certain that's why the Timbers have had so much success attracting corporate sponsors.

[CubsFanBudMan]

Well, I actually found this forum oh so many, many years ago by way of the Portland MLB effort. (That site finally seems to have died. R.I.P.) as much as I was rooting for those folks, it seems that maybe going the soccer route was the right thing to do. Back then, I couldn't imagine it -- soccer over baseball, even Triple-A, seemed ludicrous. But then you see how it actually fits quite nicely in a one-major city, and now it all make sense.

I don't think an NHL-NBA combo alone would work. I'm straining to think of one right now. It just seems that it makes better sense to grow seasonally as you make your way to the Big 4... or 5... or 3+2... or 2+3... whatever. Before that you're sort of an "either/or" in the winter sports. It works better for both leagues that way, you'd think.

I guess I am saying that the NBA and NHL both seem as an entry-level to pro sports. But once you're there, you don't use that new status to go get the other one. You use it as a step to MLB or NFL.

[DaytonBlue]

Well, I actually found this forum oh so many, many years ago by way of the Portland MLB effort. (That site finally seems to have died. R.I.P.) as much as I was rooting for those folks, it seems that maybe going the soccer route was the right thing to do. Back then, I couldn't imagine it -- soccer over baseball, even Triple-A, seemed ludicrous. But then you see how it actually fits quite nicely in a one-major city, and now it all make sense.

I don't think an NHL-NBA combo alone would work. I'm straining to think of one right now. It just seems that it makes better sense to grow seasonally as you make your way to the Big 4... or 5... or 3+2... or 2+3... whatever. Before that you're sort of an "either/or" in the winter sports. It works better for both leagues that way, you'd think.

I guess I am saying that the NBA and NHL both seem as an entry-level to pro sports. But once you're there, you don't use that new status to go get the other one. You use it as a step to MLB or NFL.

Agreed...there are no MLB markets that only have a baseball team. And the NFL only has Jacksonville as a market with no other pro teams (Green Bay counts for Milwaukee IMO).

[DDR]

but they are defiantly hockey fans there

Okay how the hell do you misspell "definitely" as "defiantly"? How does this even happen? Or are you saying that the hockey fans there defy expectations? Ugh.

It happens way more often than you think. It's honestly one of my biggest pet peeves, and more people should be called out about it.

I see that particular misspelling all the time, and never understood how it happened so often. But maybe it really is a weird auto-correction. I can't imagine why it would happen as much if it weren't an auto-correction.

[The_Admiral]

I guess maybe if you break it down like

def

ia

nt

ly

maybe I could see it, but I dunno, I think we learned how to spell this word in like 3rd grade.

[BBTV]

I guess maybe if you break it down like

def

ia

nt

ly

maybe I could see it, but I dunno, I think we learned how to spell this word in like 3rd grade.

Well like I said, it happens when I'm in phone, and half the time I don't catch it before sending. There's worse autocorrects than that, but that's bad.

As for actual spelling mistakes go, I can almost never spell the word "permanently" correct the first time. In fact, I just misspelled it and had to correct it right now. I feel that my spelling and grammar are well above average, and in a spelling bee, I'd get "permanently" correct every single time, but while typing, I nearly always reverse the "a" and second "e", so it looks like "permenantly".

[bosrs1]

_

_Well, I actually found this forum oh so many, many years ago by way of the Portland MLB effort. (That site finally seems to have died. R.I.P.) as much as I was rooting for those folks, it seems that maybe going the soccer route was the right thing to do. Back then, I couldn't imagine it -- soccer over baseball, even Triple-A, seemed ludicrous. But then you see how it actually fits quite nicely in a one-major city, and now it all make sense.

_

_I don't think an NHL-NBA combo alone would work. I'm straining to think of one right now. It just seems that it makes better sense to grow seasonally as you make your way to the Big 4... or 5... or 3+2... or 2+3... whatever. Before that you're sort of an "either/or" in the winter sports. It works better for both leagues that way, you'd think.

_

_I guess I am saying that the NBA and NHL both seem as an entry-level to pro sports. But once you're there, you don't use that new status to go get the other one. You use it as a step to MLB or NFL.

_

_

_Agreed...there are no MLB markets that only have a baseball team. And the NFL only has Jacksonville as a market with no other pro teams (Green Bay counts for Milwaukee IMO).

_

_The Tennessee Titans might disagree with that statement.

[ninersdd]

_

_

_Well, I actually found this forum oh so many, many years ago by way of the Portland MLB effort. (That site finally seems to have died. R.I.P.) as much as I was rooting for those folks, it seems that maybe going the soccer route

_was the right thing to do. Back then, I couldn't imagine it -- soccer over baseball, even Triple-A, seemed ludicrous. But then you see how it actually fits quite nicely in a one-major city, and now it all make sense.

_

_I don't think an NHL-NBA combo alone would work. I'm

_straining to think of one right now. It just seems that it makes better sense to grow seasonally as you make your way to the Big 4... or 5... or 3+2... or 2+3... whatever. Before that you're sort of an "either/or" in the winter sports. It works better for both leagues that way, you'd think.

_

_I guess I am saying that the NBA and NHL both seem as an entry-level to pro sports. But once you're there, you don't use that new status to go get the other one. You use it as a step to MLB or NFL.

_

_

_Agreed...there are no MLB markets that only have a baseball team. And the NFL only has Jacksonville as a

_market with no other pro teams (Green Bay counts for Milwaukee IMO).

_

_The Tennessee Titans might disagree with that statement.

_

_What about the Nashville Predators?