Sean Payton suspended for 2012, Tebow a Jet

[pmoehrin]

Its not even so much that what Loomis did was against NFL rules, he can potentially serve jail time for this. The same laws as to why I can't just show up at your home and install wiretaps without a warrant apply here.

The US Attorney General's office is already involved in the case. Why would they be there if the possibility of federal crimes be committed didn't exist?

This story is just getting started.

[BlueSky]

Its not even so much that what Loomis did was against NFL rules, he can potentially serve jail time for this. The same laws as to why I can't just show up at your home and install wiretaps without a warrant apply here.

The US Attorney General's office is already involved in the case. Why would they be there if the possibility of federal crimes be committed didn't exist?

This story is just getting started.

Because that's apparently who it was reported to I believe. But if I tell the police you robbed a bank, their involvement doesn't mean you robbed it.

Look, if this is true, I'll hate it. It'll disgust me the same way Spygate should disgust Pats fans, the way steroids should disgust baseball fans, the way...well, you get it. I'll be extremely disappointed and Loomis, IMO one of the best executives in the NFL, will have to go. But I'll still be a Saints fan. Hey, I've been one since 1969 and it's been an ordeal of one kind or another for most of those years so this too shall pass.

And it's a very, very big if in any case.

My problem is with the people piling on by making fun of the post-Katrina story and so on. It's absolutely true that it was overplayed and overcovered by the media like everything is. A British royal scratches their a** and it's national news for a week. I get it because I'm sick of hearing about Katrina too. But piling on is easy. It takes more effort to think things through and show some empathy for people, fans in these cases. Should we hold Spygate against Patriots fans? They had nothing to do with it and were betrayed as much as anyone the Pats got an advantage over. But they have to live with the stain like Saints fans will for Bountygate blah blah. That's ok; if 40-some-odd years of being a Saints fan does anything for you, it thickens the skin nicely.

What's next? Loomis bugged Brees' agent's office and put a bounty on him?

[Gothamite]

Look, we all have to take our lumps when the organizations we support, and with which we publicly identify, do stupid or bad or foolish things.

I took plenty when the whole Favre retirement mess was playing out. Patriot fans have taken their share over Spygate. Jets fans have after Rex Ryan makes one of his regularly scheduled boneheaded comments.

Should we hold those against the fans? I don't think anyone is. But should fans take their ribbing for it, especially in the midst of a developing story? You bet.

You'll just need to rely on that thick skin, my friend.

[BBTV]

Wait - BlueSky is a Saints fan? I would never have guessed.

[IceCap]

My problem is with the people piling on by making fun of the post-Katrina story and so on. It's absolutely true that it was overplayed and overcovered by the media like everything is. A British royal scratches their a** and it's national news for a week. I get it because I'm sick of hearing about Katrina too. But piling on is easy. It takes more effort to think things through and show some empathy for people, fans in these cases. Should we hold Spygate against Patriots fans? They had nothing to do with it and were betrayed as much as anyone the Pats got an advantage over. But they have to live with the stain like Saints fans will for Bountygate blah blah. That's ok; if 40-some-odd years of being a Saints fan does anything for you, it thickens the skin nicely.

I'm not attacking Saints fans, the city, or the victims of Hurricane Katrina.

It's just that when the Saints won, overblown or not, they were painted a certain way by the media. The story was that no matter how bad things were, be they past failures on the field or a natural disaster that devastated a community, hard work, faith, and dedication would deliver in the end.

Now? Their coaching staff and management was putting fricken bounties on opposing players and lied through their teeth to the NFL when asked about it. On top of that their GM may very well have wire tapped the Superdome to listen in on opposing coaching staffs.

It's not an attack on the fans, city, or Katrina survivors to say "wow, the Saints haven't lived up to their wholesome image as a model organization, have they?"

At least the Al Davis-led Raiders were open about being the Evil Empire of the football world.

[BlueSky]

My problem is with the people piling on by making fun of the post-Katrina story and so on. It's absolutely true that it was overplayed and overcovered by the media like everything is. A British royal scratches their a** and it's national news for a week. I get it because I'm sick of hearing about Katrina too. But piling on is easy. It takes more effort to think things through and show some empathy for people, fans in these cases. Should we hold Spygate against Patriots fans? They had nothing to do with it and were betrayed as much as anyone the Pats got an advantage over. But they have to live with the stain like Saints fans will for Bountygate blah blah. That's ok; if 40-some-odd years of being a Saints fan does anything for you, it thickens the skin nicely.

I'm not attacking Saints fans, the city, or the victims of Hurricane Katrina.

It's just that when the Saints won, overblown or not, they were painted a certain way by the media. The story was that no matter how bad things were, be they past failures on the field or a natural disaster that devastated a community, hard work, faith, and dedication would deliver in the end.

Now? Their coaching staff and management was putting fricken bounties on opposing players and lied through their teeth to the NFL when asked about it. On top of that their GM may very well have wire tapped the Superdome to listen in on opposing coaching staffs.

It's not an attack on the fans, city, or Katrina survivors to say "wow, the Saints haven't lived up to their wholesome image as a model organization, have they?"

At least the Al Davis-led Raiders were open about being the Evil Empire of the football world.

Fair points.

@ BBTV -

[Saintsfan]

My problem with these stories is it's my guess that, just as pretty much every NCAA program that is doing well is probably bending NCAA rules somehow, so pretty much every NFL franchise is behaving dubiously in some way. Just because it's open season on the Saints, we get to hear the Saints' dirt, and allegations of dirt.

[BlueSky]

It's actually all my fault.

1. I've always believed that what goes around, comes around.

2. Disregarding that belief, I hee-hawed out loud (kind of like Goose in Top Gun when Iceman makes the crack about the plaque for the alternates being in the ladies room) when Michael Vick was indicted and the Falcons started their nosedive that included many humiliating losses, the Petrino disaster, etc.

3. What goes around, comes around.

Further on Wiregate, comments from Cortez Kennedy on si.com:

===

"I've been with Mickey on game days since 2002,'' Kennedy said. "For a while I was an intern, learning the business, and I would be in the Saints' coaching booth for a while, but most of the time I was with him, in his booth, where he watched the games. I was watching how Mickey and [director of college scouting] Rick Reiprish [who began sitting in the box in 2004] do their jobs during the games, taking notes and keeping track of penalties and how far downfield passes go, things like that. Sometimes he'd be listening to the game through an earpiece. I knew that because at halftime or when he'd go to the bathroom, I'd pick up the earpiece and listen, and it'd be the game broadcast.

"Never once did I hear him talk about what was going on in the coaching booth with the other team. Never did I hear any evidence that we knew what was being said there. To me, the real outrage is, what advantage would it be for Mickey to hear it? He wouldn't have the time to get that information to our sidelines in time for it to have anything to do with the play on the field.

"I have been in that box for years, and I just couldn't believe it when I heard it. Shocking. No way it's true.''

===

[Gothamite]

My problem with these stories is it's my guess that, just as pretty much every NCAA program that is doing well is probably bending NCAA rules somehow, so pretty much every NFL franchise is behaving dubiously in some way.

No.

Logic doesn't work that way.

[Saintsfan]

My problem with these stories is it's my guess that, just as pretty much every NCAA program that is doing well is probably bending NCAA rules somehow, so pretty much every NFL franchise is behaving dubiously in some way.

No.

Logic doesn't work that way.

Well I have no inside information, but I don't suppose any NFL franchise is a paragon of virtue. When Saturday Comes wasn't that far removed from reality. Teams exist to win, and will do pretty much what it takes to win, without much regard for morality. It's often a world, it seems, where the only crime is to get caught.

[Gothamite]

That many wild suppositions can only belong to a rationalization from someone whose team got caught breaking NFL rules, if not criminal laws.

In the absence of such motivation, logic doesn't actually work that way.

[Saintsfan]

That many wild suppositions can only belong to a rationalization from someone whose team got caught breaking NFL rules, if not criminal laws.

In the absence of such motivation, logic doesn't actually work that way.

Where does logic fit into this discussion?

Look at the biggest scandals of this type? Patriots and Saints, recent champions both. A much better media story than a team that went 7-9 doing something dumb. Did those teams win because of what they did? Does the bounty scandal make Brees a better QB? Does the taping scandal make Brady throw the ball better? Every team is doing what it can to win, and the mentality of it's only bad when you get caught is enshrined within the NFL. After all both these stories broke in the media, not the offices of the NFL, and to my knowledge the NFL haven't yet employed their own investigators to look into team behaviour. They are being reactive. They could be proactive.

And just for the record again, it's not those Saints I am a fan of.

[WSU151]

My problem with these stories is it's my guess that, just as pretty much every NCAA program that is doing well is probably bending NCAA rules somehow, so pretty much every NFL franchise is behaving dubiously in some way.

No.

Logic doesn't work that way.

I don't know if EVERY team is behaving dubiously, but you know the vast majority of teams are trying to exploit every

loophole and get every advantage they can. It's just the nature of the business.

[BlueSky]

My problem with these stories is it's my guess that, just as pretty much every NCAA program that is doing well is probably bending NCAA rules somehow, so pretty much every NFL franchise is behaving dubiously in some way.

No.

Logic doesn't work that way.

I don't know if EVERY team is behaving dubiously, but you know the vast majority of teams are trying to exploit every

loophole and get every advantage they can. It's just the nature of the business.

This is the root of it. Winning is everything and losers go home (and get fired).

I understand my opinions on this carry less credibility with some because I'm a Saints fan, but take this beyond the team level. For example, one of the altruisms of modern football is "the officials could call holding on every play." Wait, those offensive players don't know holding is against the rules? Of course they do, but they choose to break the rules (aka "cheat") with the hopes they'll get away with it. To the point that fans get upset when holding IS called if the foul was technically holding but not particularly egregious (aka "ticky-tack").

Yes, I know the huge difference between guys trying to get an edge and systemic cheating. But I think it's true we'd all be vastly disappointed if every nefarious scheme used to gain an advantage in the NFL (or sports in general) suddenly came to light.

There's supposed to be this thing called sportsmanship which has turned into kind of a joke. IMO, winning anything becomes meaningless if you had an unfair advantage, whether it's steroids or stolen signs or that job you got over someone more qualified because you fudged your resume. Many see that as a quaint and outdated notion, and maybe it is, because again, winning is everything and losers go home.

[HedleyLamarr]

Further on Wiregate, comments from Cortez Kennedy on si.com:

===

"I've been with Mickey on game days since 2002,'' Kennedy said. "For a while I was an intern, learning the business, and I would be in the Saints' coaching booth for a while, but most of the time I was with him, in his booth, where he watched the games. I was watching how Mickey and [director of college scouting] Rick Reiprish [who began sitting in the box in 2004] do their jobs during the games, taking notes and keeping track of penalties and how far downfield passes go, things like that. Sometimes he'd be listening to the game through an earpiece. I knew that because at halftime or when he'd go to the bathroom, I'd pick up the earpiece and listen, and it'd be the game broadcast.

"Never once did I hear him talk about what was going on in the coaching booth with the other team. Never did I hear any evidence that we knew what was being said there. To me, the real outrage is, what advantage would it be for Mickey to hear it? He wouldn't have the time to get that information to our sidelines in time for it to have anything to do with the play on the field.

"I have been in that box for years, and I just couldn't believe it when I heard it. Shocking. No way it's true.''

===

The advantage is gaining information and filing it away for future reference.....not to help with play-calling during the game in progress.

[BlueSky]

Further on Wiregate, comments from Cortez Kennedy on si.com:

===

"I've been with Mickey on game days since 2002,'' Kennedy said. "For a while I was an intern, learning the business, and I would be in the Saints' coaching booth for a while, but most of the time I was with him, in his booth, where he watched the games. I was watching how Mickey and [director of college scouting] Rick Reiprish [who began sitting in the box in 2004] do their jobs during the games, taking notes and keeping track of penalties and how far downfield passes go, things like that. Sometimes he'd be listening to the game through an earpiece. I knew that because at halftime or when he'd go to the bathroom, I'd pick up the earpiece and listen, and it'd be the game broadcast.

"Never once did I hear him talk about what was going on in the coaching booth with the other team. Never did I hear any evidence that we knew what was being said there. To me, the real outrage is, what advantage would it be for Mickey to hear it? He wouldn't have the time to get that information to our sidelines in time for it to have anything to do with the play on the field.

"I have been in that box for years, and I just couldn't believe it when I heard it. Shocking. No way it's true.''

===

The advantage is gaining information and filing it away for future reference.....not to help with play-calling during the game in progress.

Moved emphasis to the relevant part. Loomis has said publicly that the earpiece was for listening to the game broadcast on WWL in New Orleans and Kennedy's statement backs that up. Of course the conspiracy theorists will say he's just part of it but whatever.

But you have a point so let's see what they did vs. the division in those 3 seasons:

2002 - 0-2 vs Atl, 1-1 vs Car, 2-0 vs TB (1-2 at home)

2003 - 2-0 vs Atl, 0-2 vs Car, 1-1 vs TB (1-2 at home)

2004 - 1-1 vs all three division opponents (1-2 at home)

Hardly an advantage.

[udubs03]

Further on Wiregate, comments from Cortez Kennedy on si.com:

===

"I've been with Mickey on game days since 2002,'' Kennedy said. "For a while I was an intern, learning the business, and I would be in the Saints' coaching booth for a while, but most of the time I was with him, in his booth, where he watched the games. I was watching how Mickey and [director of college scouting] Rick Reiprish [who began sitting in the box in 2004] do their jobs during the games, taking notes and keeping track of penalties and how far downfield passes go, things like that. Sometimes he'd be listening to the game through an earpiece. I knew that because at halftime or when he'd go to the bathroom, I'd pick up the earpiece and listen, and it'd be the game broadcast.

"Never once did I hear him talk about what was going on in the coaching booth with the other team. Never did I hear any evidence that we knew what was being said there. To me, the real outrage is, what advantage would it be for Mickey to hear it? He wouldn't have the time to get that information to our sidelines in time for it to have anything to do with the play on the field.

"I have been in that box for years, and I just couldn't believe it when I heard it. Shocking. No way it's true.''

===

The advantage is gaining information and filing it away for future reference.....not to help with play-calling during the game in progress.

Moved emphasis to the relevant part. Loomis has said publicly that the earpiece was for listening to the game broadcast on WWL in New Orleans and Kennedy's statement backs that up. Of course the conspiracy theorists will say he's just part of it but whatever.

But you have a point so let's see what they did vs. the division in those 3 seasons:

2002 - 0-2 vs Atl, 1-1 vs Car, 2-0 vs TB (1-2 at home)

2003 - 2-0 vs Atl, 0-2 vs Car, 1-1 vs TB (1-2 at home)

2004 - 1-1 vs all three division opponents (1-2 at home)

Hardly an advantage.

To me, it doesn't matter. It's against the rules?and possibly the law?regardless of any advantage gained. I don't understand how your team sucking rationalizes alleged cheating.

[Gothamite]

To me, it doesn't matter. It's against the rules?and possibly the law?regardless of any advantage gained. I don't understand how your team sucking rationalizes alleged cheating.

It can't.

Presuming for the moment that the bugging actually happened, all BlueSky is proving is that the team was bad despite the illegal wiretaps.

[rams80]

"It's OK we cheated, we started Aaron Brooks fergodsake!"

[tBBP]

Who, by the way, I am NOT related to, just to clarify.

(Michael Vick, however, is.)