The Native American sensitivity as mascots in sports

[roxfan00]

So there is a high school in Colorado called the Loveland High School Indians...the football helmet decals are an arrow going over the top of the helmet and on the side, an Indian face with a tomahawk and a arrow crossing each other like the Raiders logo of the two swords...do you think this over the top as more people do not like the use of Native Americans in sports as mascots, or is it just fine and people are too sensitive anymore?

[lancealot]

I should probably have no say in the matter as im from Australia and I have never seen a sports team with a native related name over here, but I think people are just getting too sensitive about it ecpesially the NCAA banning native American nicknames . If you make the arrow on that helmet bigger that would be an awesome helmet.

[charger77]

I should probably have no say in the matter as im from Australia and I have never seen a sports team with a native related name over here, but I think people are just getting too sensitive about it ecpesially the NCAA banning native American nicknames . If you make the arrow on that helmet bigger that would be an awesome helmet.

That doesn't prevent you from being able to voice an opinion.

[gdu]

It doesn't bother me, but I am not very sensitive. And in case it matters to some, I am part Native American.

[B@ltim0r3R@v3n5]

This is easy for me to say because I'm not part Indian but no I don't think that it would or should offend people. Yes the politically correct term is native American but for the longest time we called the native Americans Indians p, it's a cultural thing. I mean when i was little I would sometimes play cowboys and Indians, the native American people shouldn't feel discriminated against because it's not a derogatory term its a cultural slang like white, black, or Asian

[goforbroke]

I think that's presenting the native Americans as a waring savage race. They are more than tomahawks and arrows. I really feel like its time to drop all native american nicknames altogether, with te only possible exception being teams that are really honoring tribes as a people, like the Florida Seminoles for example. But teams that are just using native American imagery for no reason other than to present them as savages or cartoony .. Its really enough already. They are real people not characters in a story.

[cleiva]

The people trying to ban this kind of names, they say that it's because we shouldn't objectify the native americans, but in any case, we shouldn't "objectify" other people like the Steelers, Packers, Texans or Patriots did...

The tricky part for me, is that, (in my opinion) if you give a team an indigenous-related name, the very least you can do is honor them properly and since most of the people isn't Native American, I bet a lot of people follow a team with this kind of name and doesn't care at all about them.

[zpqmaowl]

Yes, let's argue this again?

[roxfan00]

Yes, let's argue this again?

Then why did you respond in the thread, if you don't want to discuss this?

[Gothamite]

Anyone want to set an over/under on the ludicrous "why don't we worry about offending eagles or bears?" argument? I'm thinking ten more posts.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

Anyone want to set an over/under on the ludicrous "why don't we worry about offending eagles or bears?" argument? I'm thinking ten more posts.

You must have missed three posts above yours.

[Gothamite]

Whoops - my nonsense detector must be on the fritz.

[CharlotteIllini88]

I think that's presenting the native Americans as a waring savage race. They are more than tomahawks and arrows. I really feel like its time to drop all native american nicknames altogether, with te only possible exception being teams that are really honoring tribes as a people, like the Florida Seminoles for example. But teams that are just using native American imagery for no reason other than to present them as savages or cartoony .. Its really enough already. They are real people not characters in a story.

I don't see why Seminoles would be an exception, as the imagery there is still tomahawks and arrows, not to mention spears in this case. The only reason it's okay for FSU to be called the Seminoles is because they give them money. That's all. If Indians mascots have to go, fine with me. But you have to get rid of all of them, even the 'Noles.

(And yes, I'm an Illini fan who is fairly annoyed by the NCAA's hypocrisy of making Illinois ban Illiniwek while letting FSU keep their chief.)

[Big A HG]

There is a right way to do things, and of course, wrong ways. You can't lump them all together like the NCAA did. Honestly, I'm not offended by the way Loveland uses the name Indians, but I'm not sure they are going about it in the best way. Then, you look at a school like North Dakota, and their logo is a very beautiful representation of a specific group...not calling them Indians or Savages, and actually uses a logo created by a Native American and which has meaning with each choice of color and the specific design used.

Everyone looks at it all differently. I'm pro-Native American nickname when used in a respectful manner. I'm not a big fan of stereotypical uses like red skin used on designs and such, though it doesn't bother me much.

I know a lot of Native Americans don't get a fair say in the whole ordeal either. You only hear about the ones that don't like the imagery being used, but there is a majority (yes, majority) that actually like it when a school uses their name or heritage in a respectful manner.

One funny story I have is...I was gambling at a Native American run casino in Wisconsin. I was wearing a shirt of a university that had a Native American nickname and logo and one guy working the craps table (a Native American) decided to start talking about nicknames and such with me. He described how he didn't like the Washington Redskin's name and logo, but he actually rooted for them because of it. He was honestly a big hypcrite about it all, in my opinion. An older Native American lady also working the craps table was telling him he was an idiot about it all (quite humorous if you ask me) and was very openly pro-Native American nickname. She actually used many of the same "pros" that other nickname supporters use to describe how she felt...she used UND as an example of how when they take the name away, people will forget the Sioux name, and the fact they use it respectfully.

Just my long $.02.

[JackieMoon]

I'm part Native American and here is my viewpoint. I personally don't see anything wrong with honoring Native Americans in sports if its done right. The Redskins name and the Cleveland Indians Chief Wahoo logo do piss me off. If it were flipped around and used to describe African Americans there would be race war.

[winghaz]

Just from the design point, I don't like how the tomahawk and arrow come out of the head. It looks bad.

[Geoff]

I think that's presenting the native Americans as a waring savage race. They are more than tomahawks and arrows. I really feel like its time to drop all native american nicknames altogether, with te only possible exception being teams that are really honoring tribes as a people, like the Florida Seminoles for example. But teams that are just using native American imagery for no reason other than to present them as savages or cartoony .. Its really enough already. They are real people not characters in a story.

I'm going to assume you're referring to the trip as the Florida Seminoles (actually the Seminole Tribe of Florida) and not unintentionally insulting FSU, FSU athletes, alumni, and fans everywhere. With that assumption:

Fair enough but what about the North Dakota Fighting Sioux. It was intended to honor the Native Americans and most of the Natives liked it, but a select few (and it just happened to be these select few held all the cards) didn't like it. With the majority of the people in favor, those in power still were opposed never gave their permission to UND.

Also, if you think the depictions of Chief Osceola and Florida State having spears on their helmets are not projecting a fairly inaccurate image of Seminoles, you're misinformed. The Chief Osceola mascot is more a character than a representation of the actual Osceola as he never actually wore war paint and carried a flaming spear. However, the hats presented to the Homecoming Chief every year are made and presented by the Seminole Tribe of Florida.

The people trying to ban this kind of names, they say that it's because we shouldn't objectify the native americans, but in any case, we shouldn't "objectify" other people like the Steelers, Packers, Texans or Patriots did...

The tricky part for me, is that, (in my opinion) if you give a team an indigenous-related name, the very least you can do is honor them properly and since most of the people isn't Native American, I bet a lot of people follow a team with this kind of name and doesn't care at all about them.

The Steelers, Packers, Texans, and Patriots aren't an ethnicity or race. That's not even apples and oranges. That's apples and AIDS. They share a commonality but it's so loose it's pointless to bring up.

That said, Steelers, Packers, Texans, and Patriots are all derived from pride points. The steel workers took pride in their team, the meat packers at Acme took pride in their companies team, Texans ... well Texans love them anything Texas related, and who, American or other nationality, doesn't like feeling Patriotic?

[goforbroke]

I think that's presenting the native Americans as a waring savage race. They are more than tomahawks and arrows. I really feel like its time to drop all native american nicknames altogether, with te only possible exception being teams that are really honoring tribes as a people, like the Florida Seminoles for example. But teams that are just using native American imagery for no reason other than to present them as savages or cartoony .. Its really enough already. They are real people not characters in a story.

I'm going to assume you're referring to the trip as the Florida Seminoles (actually the Seminole Tribe of Florida) and not unintentionally insulting FSU, FSU athletes, alumni, and fans everywhere. With that assumption:

Fair enough but what about the North Dakota Fighting Sioux. It was intended to honor the Native Americans and most of the Natives liked it, but a select few (and it just happened to be these select few held all the cards) didn't like it. With the majority of the people in favor, those in power still were opposed never gave their permission to UND.

Also, if you think the depictions of Chief Osceola and Florida State having spears on their helmets are not projecting a fairly inaccurate image of Seminoles, you're misinformed. The Chief Osceola mascot is more a character than a representation of the actual Osceola as he never actually wore war paint and carried a flaming spear. However, the hats presented to the Homecoming Chief every year are made and presented by the Seminole Tribe of Florida.

The people trying to ban this kind of names, they say that it's because we shouldn't objectify the native americans, but in any case, we shouldn't "objectify" other people like the Steelers, Packers, Texans or Patriots did...

The tricky part for me, is that, (in my opinion) if you give a team an indigenous-related name, the very least you can do is honor them properly and since most of the people isn't Native American, I bet a lot of people follow a team with this kind of name and doesn't care at all about them.

The Steelers, Packers, Texans, and Patriots aren't an ethnicity or race. That's not even apples and oranges. That's apples and AIDS. They share a commonality but it's so loose it's pointless to bring up.

That said, Steelers, Packers, Texans, and Patriots are all derived from pride points. The steel workers took pride in their team, the meat packers at Acme took pride in their companies team, Texans ... well Texans love them anything Texas related, and who, American or other nationality, doesn't like feeling Patriotic?

Yes when I said Florida Seminoles I meant the native american tribe in Florida... I know the school

Is FSU.

[illini1]

I think that's presenting the native Americans as a waring savage race. They are more than tomahawks and arrows. I really feel like its time to drop all native american nicknames altogether, with te only possible exception being teams that are really honoring tribes as a people, like the Florida Seminoles for example. But teams that are just using native American imagery for no reason other than to present them as savages or cartoony .. Its really enough already. They are real people not characters in a story.

I don't see why Seminoles would be an exception, as the imagery there is still tomahawks and arrows, not to mention spears in this case. The only reason it's okay for FSU to be called the Seminoles is because they give them money. That's all. If Indians mascots have to go, fine with me. But you have to get rid of all of them, even the 'Noles.

(And yes, I'm an Illini fan who is fairly annoyed by the NCAA's hypocrisy of making Illinois ban Illiniwek while letting FSU keep their chief.)

I totally agree. Illinois is being penalized because they have no one to bribe like Florida St. There are no living descendants of the tribes that formed the Illini Confederation.

[tubby34]