The Native American sensitivity as mascots in sports

[cleiva]

The people trying to ban this kind of names, they say that it's because we shouldn't objectify the native americans, but in any case, we shouldn't "objectify" other people like the Steelers, Packers, Texans or Patriots did...

The tricky part for me, is that, (in my opinion) if you give a team an indigenous-related name, the very least you can do is honor them properly and since most of the people isn't Native American, I bet a lot of people follow a team with this kind of name and doesn't care at all about them.

The Steelers, Packers, Texans, and Patriots aren't an ethnicity or race. That's not even apples and oranges. That's apples and AIDS. They share a commonality but it's so loose it's pointless to bring up.

That said, Steelers, Packers, Texans, and Patriots are all derived from pride points. The steel workers took pride in their team, the meat packers at Acme took pride in their companies team, Texans ... well Texans love them anything Texas related, and who, American or other nationality, doesn't like feeling Patriotic?

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear, I did forgot about the "Redskins" kind of name, and forgot that some of those names are race-related. I was thinking more of a Seminoles kind of nickname.

In my country, we lost a lot of our history because of the conquest period, and since I'm almost certainly part Native American(America=continent) too, I would love to have a team representing my city, honoring the original owners of the land, in some way like the Seminoles did.

[Gazzzaf]

People who use the term "PC Police" are those just looking for someone to blame for the fact that they're getting left in the dustrail of history.

People who claim others to not be as progressive are ignorant of another point of view that may be just as valid as theirs, its like ending an argument with "bigot". I'm offended but I wont complain, something the "PC Police" (for lack of a better word since they are moving towards policing thought) would not stand for.

The Cleveland Indians' logo and the Washington Redskins' name are just as bad though.

Agreed. I did say cartoonish representation, I guess this ties in. I would not say the the Redskins logo is offensive however.

You're going to tell them which depictions they have a right to be offended by? That's rich.

Why not? A vocal minority is doing the same thing, and subsequently, dictating the speech of a majority (something about freedom of speech crossed my mind, is it important over there?). The difference is that I'm applying common sense to the matter, not making rash decisions based on emotion. The consensus of ACTUAL Native Americans posting here don't seem to mind.

I would be less opposed to their cause if they also went after positive stereotypes as aggressively. However, you don't see as strong an opposition to their stereotypical wisdom.

[JackieMoon]

If it's acceptable to keep the name Washington Redskins, then there my as well be a New York Darkies. And with that put a black person on the helmet with bright red lips smiling with big teeth (like Chief Wahoo).

Again, I'm Native American and I don't see a problem with calling a team Warriors, Indians, or Chiefs. Just do it right.

[illwauk]

If it's acceptable to keep the name Washington Redskins, then there my as well be a New York Darkies. And with that put a black person on the helmet with bright red lips smiling with big teeth (like Chief Wahoo).

Again, I'm Native American and I don't see a problem with calling a team Warriors, Indians, or Chiefs. Just do it right.

Impossible! Anyone who thinks any part of any teams' Native American imagery is unacceptable is just a bored white person whose looking for a cause or an excuse to be offended. I know you're lying because all of the members of this board who are 0.00009% Native American have already confirmed this.

Seriously though, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said. I especially like it when colleges adopt the name of a local NA society who might not be known of in other parts of the country... assuming the tribe itself is okay with it, of course.

[_RH_]

So respect them enough to get permission from every organized group represented, and the nickname is fine.

What do you think is a fair way to do this, a simple majority vote? Or if anyone hesitates to give permission should the nickname be nixed?

[SCL]

I agree that both Wahoo and the name Redskins need to go.

[winghaz]

The people of the Standing Rock Sioux did get a vote on whether they wanted the University to use their name; the same vote that everyone else in North Dakota just took. The only good thing to emerge from that farce, in fact, was that the members of the tribe voted against the use of their name. Pretty handily, IIRC.

Those members affirmed the actions of their tribal council, which far from imposing a minority viewpoint (as some had claimed) was actually serving the wishes of their people. In other words, doing exactly what an elected body in a representative democracy is supposed to do.

Two problems with that thought:

1. The numbers come from Sioux County in North Dakota, not the Standing Rock Sioux. A large portion of the county, especially around Selfridge, is white.

2. While the numbers showed large amounts of voters at the polls in almost all of North Dakota, they also showed a low amount in Sioux County.

In other words, it's hard to say. The only true way of judging this would be if the Standing Rock tribal council allowed the tribal members to vote.

[oldschoolvikings]

Yes, you can make the claim that since I'm not Native American my argument doesn't matter. But does being Italian mean I'm offended every time I watch Jersey Shore?

Well, if not, you should be.

[Gothamite]

every American should be.

So respect them enough to get permission from every organized group represented, and the nickname is fine.

What do you think is a fair way to do this, a simple majority vote? Or if anyone hesitates to give permission should the nickname be nixed?

I think it should be left up to the groups themselves. If a tribe wants to hold a vote, so be it. If they want to leave it up to the representative body, that seems every bit as legitimate.

[tubby34]

[oldschoolvikings]

Yes, you can make the claim that since I'm not Native American my argument doesn't matter. But does being Italian mean I'm offended every time I watch Jersey Shore?

Well, if not, you should be.

You know, I've given this Jersey Shore comparison a little more thought, and I have a question. Let's say, for the sake of argument, the cast of that show was made up of wasp-y blond 20-somethings, wearing greasy black-haired wigs, with fake orange tans (oh, wait...) and only pretending to be "authentic" Italians. Say the content of the show was exactly the same... fist pumps, drunk morons falling down, constant mentions of "Guidos"... and the producers of the show said it was "all in fun" and it somehow "honored" Italian-American heritage. How offended would you be then?

[tubby34]

Yes, you can make the claim that since I'm not Native American my argument doesn't matter. But does being Italian mean I'm offended every time I watch Jersey Shore?

Well, if not, you should be.

You know, I've given this Jersey Shore comparison a little more thought, and I have a question. Let's say, for the sake of argument, the cast of that show was made up of wasp-y blond 20-somethings, wearing greasy black-haired wigs, with fake orange tans (oh, wait...) and only pretending to be "authentic" Italians. Say the content of the show was exactly the same... fist pumps, drunk morons falling down, constant mentions of "Guidos"... and the producers of the show said it was "all in fun" and it somehow "honored" Italian-American heritage. How offended would you be then?

Umm, Snooki is adopted and is actually from Ecuador or Colombia (somewhere in South America). I also think another one is hispanic.

[Geoff]

I'm ashamed to admit I know this but the two that aren't are JWoww and Snooki, but Snooki was adopted by Italian-American parents.

[tBBP]

Y'all completely missed OSV's point (and I really can't believe I'm now getting involved in this thread...smh).

He's saying...hypothetically speaking, what if the Jersey Shore show, again, hypothetically speaking, was nothing more than a bunch of white people dressed and made up to look, talk, and act like stereotypical Italians (you know, the dark-colored skin, constant "guido" mentions, the wild tempers and all that)?basically a modern-day minstrel show? How, then, would authentic true-blood Italians feel about what some of them (y'all) might perceive as the misrepresentation of their/y'alls race/nationality? Especially considering (hypothetically, again?although for all I know this next part might just be truer than most know) the show was produced by a bunch of white people, not one of whom may be even 10% Italian?

I believe that's the hypothetical point-of-view OSV is trying to convey here.

*disclaimer: I've only seen bits and pieces of Jersey Shore, so I really don't know too much about it other than that little bit.

[UnclearInitial]

Frankly, I am offended by Jersey Shore, especially because it's a completely wrong misconception and it's annoying that the first thing Americans think about Italians now is that they get drunk and do moronic stuff. Ironically, the few Italians that watch it believe that that is he Americans behave, ( and that is actually more correct, considering most of them would get their asses kicked in Italy) so, as Goth said, Americans should be offended by Jersey shore.

[Geoff]

Buc, your hypothetical is pretty mush reality. Italian-American groups were and are mad at MTV for stereotypes glorified by the show and when they filmed a season in Italy, the Italian people hated them just as much.

[tBBP]

Oh wow?didn't know that. Guess point proven, then. (About Jersey Shore, that is.)

Now let me bacdafucup outta this discussion and let y'all continue to squawk amongst yourselves...I'll be chewing on my popcorn in the meantime.

[AndrewPF]

Can we just sticky this thread so we don't get 150 more asking the same question before year's end?

[vmd9]

Yes, you can make the claim that since I'm not Native American my argument doesn't matter. But does being Italian mean I'm offended every time I watch Jersey Shore?

Well, if not, you should be.

You know, I've given this Jersey Shore comparison a little more thought, and I have a question. Let's say, for the sake of argument, the cast of that show was made up of wasp-y blond 20-somethings, wearing greasy black-haired wigs, with fake orange tans (oh, wait...) and only pretending to be "authentic" Italians. Say the content of the show was exactly the same... fist pumps, drunk morons falling down, constant mentions of "Guidos"... and the producers of the show said it was "all in fun" and it somehow "honored" Italian-American heritage. How offended would you be then?

I wouldn't care one bit. Because I'm smart enough to know that 90% of Italians aren't anything like the characters on the show. Just like I'm sure 90% of Americans, know that real Native Americans look nothing like Chief Wahoo.

[colinturner95]

I'm legitimately 30% Sioux and my family who still lives over in the Dakota area has no problem with the Fighting Sioux.