Mizzou's Michael Sam comes out

[IceCap]

We still have a long way to go, but at least open bigotry isn't acceptable any more.

Sure it is. Bigotry isn't a one-way road.

Bigotry exists because it isn't possible to know and understand every single viewpoint. When someone disagrees, we label them or shame them and make them feel inferior. That's bigotry. Happens to everyone.

That's a particularly weak straw man.

Nobody is saying that conservatives don't have the right to seek employment in any job they are qualified for. Nobody is saying that businesses should be able to fire conservatives just because they're conservatives. Nobody is saying that conservatives should not be allowed to marry or adopt. Until that point, pretending that conservatives are somehow the true victims here is both sad and laughable.

No it's not. Open your eyes. I work in a place where most conservatives are looked down upon as stupid, unsophisticated, and weird. Trust me...that bigotry exists.

Let me know what you think of the Tea Party and the Religious Right. Do you agree with their views? Do you think those people are smart? Are they stupid and wrong and weird and uneducated? Do you cringe when "Teabagger" is used as a description?

Then we'll talk.

Nothing more annoying than someone who is igonorant and/or terrified of his own bigotry. The PC Police can be quite an insidious force.

I'm sorry. Someone calling you a "teabagger" because they disagree with your political views isn't the same as someone calling me a fag because they believe what I am is fundamentally abhorrent.

No one suggests that you be denied basic human rights due to your political beliefs. People suggest that I be denied basic human rights for who I sleep with all the time.

[goalieboy82]

i wonder what people (media) would say if sam wasn't drafted or doesn't make the final roster.

[Needschat]

i wonder what people (media) would say if sam wasn't drafted or doesn't make the final roster.

ESPN - First openly gay football player was cut by the Rams. (Will have camera and mic in front of his boyfriend asking for a reaction)

NBCSN - First openly gay football players was cut by the Rams. (Will have cameras and mics in front of Rams players and coaches)

FOX - See! We told you so! Gays don't belong!!

[WSU151]

We still have a long way to go, but at least open bigotry isn't acceptable any more.

Sure it is. Bigotry isn't a one-way road.

Bigotry exists because it isn't possible to know and understand every single viewpoint. When someone disagrees, we label them or shame them and make them feel inferior. That's bigotry. Happens to everyone.

That's a particularly weak straw man.

Nobody is saying that conservatives don't have the right to seek employment in any job they are qualified for. Nobody is saying that businesses should be able to fire conservatives just because they're conservatives. Nobody is saying that conservatives should not be allowed to marry or adopt. Until that point, pretending that conservatives are somehow the true victims here is both sad and laughable.

No it's not. Open your eyes. I work in a place where most conservatives are looked down upon as stupid, unsophisticated, and weird. Trust me...that bigotry exists.

Let me know what you think of the Tea Party and the Religious Right. Do you agree with their views? Do you think those people are smart? Are they stupid and wrong and weird and uneducated? Do you cringe when "Teabagger" is used as a description?

Then we'll talk.

Nothing more annoying than someone who is igonorant and/or terrified of his own bigotry. The PC Police can be quite an insidious force.

I'm sorry. Someone calling you a "teabagger" because they disagree with your political views isn't the same as someone calling me a fag because they believe what I am is fundamentally abhorrent.

No one suggests that you be denied basic human rights due to your political beliefs. People suggest that I be denied basic human rights for who I sleep with all the time.

Ok. Legitimate points. But calling each other any of those names really isn't progressive. Not sure a tit-for-tat strategy is free of bigotry at its basic level.

What happened to the old saying "what you do in your bedroom is no one's business"? Has that been re-articulated as "You should absolutely know what I do in the bedroom because then you'd treat me better"?

[hailstateunis]

i wonder what people (media) would say if sam wasn't drafted or doesn't make the final roster.

It certainly wouldn't be good PR for the NFL.

[WSU151]

i wonder what people (media) would say if sam wasn't drafted or doesn't make the final roster.

ESPN - First openly gay football player was cut by the Rams. (Will have camera and mic in front of his boyfriend asking for a reaction)

NBCSN - First openly gay football players was cut by the Rams. (Will have cameras and mics in front of Rams players and coaches)

FOX - See! We told you so! Gays don't belong!!

FOX, as conservative and protective of religious liberty as it is, isn't as homophobic as you think it is.

[WSU151]

i wonder what people (media) would say if sam wasn't drafted or doesn't make the final roster.

It certainly wouldn't be good PR for the NFL.

This is where the slippery slope lies. If he doesn't make the roster...what's the reason?

[goalieboy82]

i wonder what people (media) would say if sam wasn't drafted or doesn't make the final roster.

It certainly wouldn't be good PR for the NFL.

This is where the slippery slope lies. If he doesn't make the roster...what's the reason?

if he doesn't make the team (and the rams give a good reason) i think people are still going to say that the rams were homophobic in the back of there minds.

[HedleyLamarr]

It's a huge deal that we just might get to witness the first openly gay athlete get to play in a Big Four sport, and the biggest of them all. Something we've never had. It's something that will probably be the biggest moment towards the LGBT community no longer being outliers in America.

Actually we already have...and that player is roughly of Sam's caliber (albeit on the other end of his career).

I cannot think of much to say about Dungy that has not been said, so I'll say this...

Dungy's candor on this issue, whatever it says about him, is important. It's important because you know he's not the only one. He exposed the NFL and its "distraction" boogeyman for all of us to see. A player that had been projected (if I am not mistaken) as a roughly 5th round pick ended up barely above Mr. Irrelevant and a former NFL coach uses the "D" word...that's not a coincidence.

So, please, all the "why do we have to hear about this/why should this matter?" crowd...you just got your answer. THIS is why it's important. Because people in the NFL (and, one would suspect, other fields) have the fear, bigotry, lacking courage, ignorance, whatever to say "I would not hire a gay person" and a critical mass of people have their backs. So yeah, it matters.

What I meant was an openly gay athlete before he played professionally. As tremendous as it was for Jason Collins to come out while still being active, he had played for years without the world knowing. (And there was that thought of Collins was black-listing himself, since he was a borderline player to begin with.)

So Dungy is saying that the two, maybe three more cameras at Rams camp is more of a distraction than the 10s more that surrounded Michael Vick, more distracting than the HBO "Hard Knocks" cameras?

His very thin veil of religious bigotry has shown. Someone needs to get him a ladder so he can climb out of the hole he's digging.

Well, it's more than the 2 or 3 extra cameras. It'll be the daily questions about Sam, as well as the follow-up questions, etc. In a profession where many coaches spend 6 months living and sleeping at their team's facility, any little extra thing that keeps them away from what they want to be doing is a distraction.

And also, it will be a bit of a distraction for Sam, too. I'm sure the media will want to talk to him throughout the course of camp. Not sure how much exposure the Rams would let their players have to the media during camp, especially rookies.

Sam's in about the best location he could ask for. By all accounts, Jeff Fisher is about as stand-up a head coach as there is in the NFL. There's nothing he hasn't been through before. I think he'll do as good a job as possible to please all parties and make things as normal as can be.

[IceCap]

Ok. Legitimate points. But calling each other any of those names really isn't progressive.

I agree. Teabagger isn't one you hear a lot in the Canadian context but I've heard more then enough people on both sides of the left-right divide call each other names and make broad, sweeping generalizations in place of actual, constrictive debate.

How cool would it be to have an actual debate between actual liberals and conservatives calmly discussing issues at hand in a constructive manner? Without one side calling the other a reactionary and the other side calling the other a communist? That would be great.

What happened to the old saying "what you do in your bedroom is no one's business"? Has that been re-articulated as "You should absolutely know what I do in the bedroom because then you'd treat me better"?

I don't want to be treated better. I want to be treated the same. Equality. That's all I'm asking for.

It's not the LGBT Rights crowd that made what we do in the bedroom an issue. It's the homophobic side of things that made it an issue by denying, or attempting to deny, us basic human rights.

I agree, what happens in the bedroom should be private. It shouldn't be a factor. When people stop actively discriminating against others because of their sexual orientation then what happens in the bedroom will become a non-factor. It's only a factor because homophobes made it one.

And yeah, that will be cool. When homosexuality is fully de-stigmatized it will become less politicized. The problem is getting it de-stigmatized. Tony Dungy and his ilk are a roadblock to getting to that point.

[WSU151]

Ok. Legitimate points. But calling each other any of those names really isn't progressive.

I agree. Teabagger isn't one you hear a lot in the Canadian context but I've heard more then enough people on both sides of the left-right divide call each other names and make broad, sweeping generalizations in place of actual, constrictive debate.

How cool would it be to have an actual debate between actual liberals and conservatives calmly discussing issues at hand in a constructive manner? Without one side calling the other a reactionary and the other side calling the other a communist? That would be great.

What happened to the old saying "what you do in your bedroom is no one's business"? Has that been re-articulated as "You should absolutely know what I do in the bedroom because then you'd treat me better"?

I don't want to be treated better. I want to be treated the same. Equality. That's all I'm asking for.

It's not the LGBT Rights crowd that made what we do in the bedroom an issue. It's the homophobic side of things that made it an issue by denying, or attempting to deny, us basic human rights.

I agree, what happens in the bedroom should be private. It shouldn't be a factor. When people stop actively discriminating against others because of their sexual orientation then what happens in the bedroom will become a non-factor. It's only a factor because homophobes made it one.

And yeah, that will be cool. When homosexuality is fully de-stigmatized it will become less politicized. The problem is getting it de-stigmatized. Tony Dungy and his ilk are a roadblock to getting to that point.

Agreed.

[OnWis97]

Ok. Legitimate points. But calling each other any of those names really isn't progressive.

I agree. Teabagger isn't one you hear a lot in the Canadian context but I've heard more then enough people on both sides of the left-right divide call each other names and make broad, sweeping generalizations in place of actual, constrictive debate.

How cool would it be to have an actual debate between actual liberals and conservatives calmly discussing issues at hand in a constructive manner? Without one side calling the other a reactionary and the other side calling the other a communist? That would be great.

What happened to the old saying "what you do in your bedroom is no one's business"? Has that been re-articulated as "You should absolutely know what I do in the bedroom because then you'd treat me better"?

I don't want to be treated better. I want to be treated the same. Equality. That's all I'm asking for.

It's not the LGBT Rights crowd that made what we do in the bedroom an issue. It's the homophobic side of things that made it an issue by denying, or attempting to deny, us basic human rights.

I agree, what happens in the bedroom should be private. It shouldn't be a factor. When people stop actively discriminating against others because of their sexual orientation then what happens in the bedroom will become a non-factor. It's only a factor because homophobes made it one.

And yeah, that will be cool. When homosexuality is fully de-stigmatized it will become less politicized. The problem is getting it de-stigmatized. Tony Dungy and his ilk are a roadblock to getting to that point.

It seems to me it's not about "the bedroom." It's about the ability to just be who you are...pictures of your partner on your desk, discussing your weekend plans with your significant other, and generally not keeping your mouth shut and giving everyone the impression that you spend all of your free time sitting in a small square room doing nothing. It's never the gay rights advocates that talk about the bedroom because it's not them who have "the gay sex" on their minds. It's the other side that thinks, sometimes an awful lot, about "the bedroom.

[WSU151]

Ok. Legitimate points. But calling each other any of those names really isn't progressive.

I agree. Teabagger isn't one you hear a lot in the Canadian context but I've heard more then enough people on both sides of the left-right divide call each other names and make broad, sweeping generalizations in place of actual, constrictive debate.

How cool would it be to have an actual debate between actual liberals and conservatives calmly discussing issues at hand in a constructive manner? Without one side calling the other a reactionary and the other side calling the other a communist? That would be great.

What happened to the old saying "what you do in your bedroom is no one's business"? Has that been re-articulated as "You should absolutely know what I do in the bedroom because then you'd treat me better"?

I don't want to be treated better. I want to be treated the same. Equality. That's all I'm asking for.

It's not the LGBT Rights crowd that made what we do in the bedroom an issue. It's the homophobic side of things that made it an issue by denying, or attempting to deny, us basic human rights.

I agree, what happens in the bedroom should be private. It shouldn't be a factor. When people stop actively discriminating against others because of their sexual orientation then what happens in the bedroom will become a non-factor. It's only a factor because homophobes made it one.

And yeah, that will be cool. When homosexuality is fully de-stigmatized it will become less politicized. The problem is getting it de-stigmatized. Tony Dungy and his ilk are a roadblock to getting to that point.

It seems to me it's not about "the bedroom." It's about the ability to just be who you are...pictures of your partner on your desk, discussing your weekend plans with your significant other, and generally not keeping your mouth shut and giving everyone the impression that you spend all of your free time sitting in a small square room doing nothing. It's never the gay rights advocates that talk about the bedroom because it's not them who have "the gay sex" on their minds. It's the other side that thinks, sometimes an awful lot, about "the bedroom.

My experiences have somewhat differed, but it depends on the person. One gay co-worker (and heavy gay rights advocate) leaves no doubt as to what happens. Another (who isn't a heavy advocate) doesn't say much. And both are good friends and confidants of mine.

[BBTV]

Are they really going to sell his jersey for $75 or $99 or whatever they cost and then cut him without playing a game? I think it would look like less of a pub thing (same with Jason Collins) if they held back on the jerseys until the player made the team (or signed for the rest of the season).

I'd be shocked if they cut him after marketing him like that, and if he stinks there's going to be questions about why he's on the team, even if he did make it for legitimate reasons.

I'm not saying I think it was a publicity thing, just that it could be handled better.

[wonderbread]

Are they really going to sell his jersey for $75 or $99 or whatever they cost and then cut him without playing a game? I think it would look like less of a pub thing (same with Jason Collins) if they held back on the jerseys until the player made the team (or signed for the rest of the season).

I'd be shocked if they cut him after marketing him like that, and if he stinks there's going to be questions about why he's on the team, even if he did make it for legitimate reasons.

I'm not saying I think it was a publicity thing, just that it could be handled better.

The pats were selling tebow jerseys last year as soon as he was signed and he got cut in the pre season.

[BBTV]

I didn't realize that. That's crummy.

[IceCap]

It seems to me it's not about "the bedroom." It's about the ability to just be who you are...pictures of your partner on your desk, discussing your weekend plans with your significant other, and generally not keeping your mouth shut and giving everyone the impression that you spend all of your free time sitting in a small square room doing nothing. It's never the gay rights advocates that talk about the bedroom because it's not them who have "the gay sex" on their minds. It's the other side that thinks, sometimes an awful lot, about "the bedroom.

On the bolded point. That's pretty much what I said.

On the larger point. Exactly. You (a general) see a guy with a picture of his wife on his desk and you don't start thinking of what they do in the bedroom (at least I hope not). So why is it that if a gay guy puts a picture of his boyfriend or husband (check your local jurisdiction) on his desk the homophobic crowd won't shut up about what they do in the bedroom? I don't particularly care to go into detail about my love life, yet for some people that's all they think of! It's weird when you get down to the root of the issue.

My experiences have somewhat differed, but it depends on the person. One gay co-worker (and heavy gay rights advocate) leaves no doubt as to what happens. Another (who isn't a heavy advocate) doesn't say much. And both are good friends and confidants of mine.

I almost equate it to the black power/separatist movements that arose during the Civil Rights movement. You (again, a general you) tell a minority that they're different and not "normal" in some way and some will embrace that. Whether it's a conscious decision or not. As homosexuality becomes de-stigmatized then you'll have less and less people who feel the need to leave no doubt about what they do in the bedroom. It's only really acceptable now because of the stigma attached to it, oddly enough. Once sexual orientation becomes a non-factor for the majority of people then the need to let everyone know what they do in the bedroom will die out among certain LGBT individuals. You'll just see the guy with a picture of his boyfriend or husband on his desk as...normal. Which is the end goal.

[Ateles fusciceps]

The media and majority of the public is going to have a short-sighted opinion no matter what happens.

"He was cut because he's gay."

"He made the team because he's gay."

[Needschat]

i wonder what people (media) would say if sam wasn't drafted or doesn't make the final roster.

ESPN - First openly gay football player was cut by the Rams. (Will have camera and mic in front of his boyfriend asking for a reaction)

NBCSN - First openly gay football players was cut by the Rams. (Will have cameras and mics in front of Rams players and coaches)

FOX - See! We told you so! Gays don't belong!!

FOX, as conservative and protective of religious liberty as it is, isn't as homophobic as you think it is.

Oh, they are. Follow NASCAR on Fox, and you'll see the subtle digs.

[Germanshepherd]

If Sam makes the final roster he'll easily make the Pro Bowl after a 2 sack season there is no denying that.