Rite of Spring 2018-“What happens in the playoffs stays in the playoffs”

[BeerGuyJordan]

I don't think it was rigged. Whether or not it was fair is a matter of perspective. '98 - '00 teams paid $80 million. The NHL absolutely had to give better draft terms to justify $500 million. Were the terms too generous? Possibly, but a better product was seen as essential to sustaining what could have easily (and still could, honestly) become Coyotes 2.0.

 

Columbus and Minnesota picked what was left after either a 9F/5D/1G or 7F/3D/2G protected list. On top of that, they were coming in at the tail end of a decade where expansion had just happened seven other times, diluting the talent exposed in a huge way.

 

The argument that this team is just a bunch of third line talent is inane. Every team would have theoretically exposed at least one second liner.

 

Teams taking the 7F/3D option exposed a second line D, and that's not counting exposing better current players to keep an eligible prospect.

 

Seven teams opted for the 8 skater option, meaning they would be exposing at least 2 second line forwards.

 

Any time Vegas took a third-liner, it was mostly due to choosing to. The draft rules themselves left them only having to select 9 third liners, total, and that's before talent vs. prospect and salary dumping factors. This team is a combo of second and third-line talent, with a franchise goalie who could have been the Vezina winner, if he hadn't missed so much of the season.

 

The NHL owners got greedy and agreed to this, plain and simple.

 

I'm almost certain I had this team pegged as a bubble team, maybe squeaking into a 3 or wild card slot, and being bounced in the first round. It's not like the Pacific is the deepest division, right now.

 

I never saw them being this good. Some of the credit absolutely has to go to the GM, coach, and players for making the most out of their circumstances. Acting like the draft had little to nothing to do with it is idiocy.

 

I'm not disgusted with the Knights, themselves. This success has been key to making the most of their two year head start over the NFL. I loathe what this run represents: the owners being greedy and offering expansion terms that I think were way too generous, especially in light of how much they comparatively hobbled the last four expansion franchises. I'm saying that as a fan of the first of those four to claw their way to the Final. I can only imagine how much more frustrating this must be for the other three fanbases, especially Columbus.

[BeerGuyJordan]

21 hours ago, FlyEaglesFly76 said:

I'm starting to wonder if the Golden Knights will be the better LV team than the Raiders when they move, lol

Better on ice/field? Likely. Better attendance or financially? Not likely. The NFL is basically just too big, in this country. 41 games vs 8 games that feel more like events is one factor. Hell, even in the bigger hockey towns (MSP, Detroit, Boston), the NFL has the upper hand while their football team is still playing.

 

Las Vegas has done pretty much everything they can, to set themselves up for success. The Raiders bringing the NFL to town is going to affect the Knights' bottom line, it just comes down to how long it takes and how much, when it does.

[Dalcowboyfan92]

"All I want for my birthday is for the Washington Capitals to win a Game 7."

 

Don't let me down, guys.

[gosioux76]

These retrospective analyses of expansions drafts are exhausting. 

 

Vegas, no matter how they came together, is a fun team to watch. My only concern is what happens to that fanbase once they're only mediocre. It's a much more enjoyable fan experience, in the end, to get there, miss, and claw your way back than it is to reach the throne on the first try.  

[ninersdd]

The Knights could have more overall support in Vegas then the Raiders though, cause the Raiders are one of those teams that you love or hate, thus a good chunk of Las Vegans won’t be fans of the Raiders.

[BeerGuyJordan]

31 minutes ago, gosioux76 said:

My only concern is what happens to that fanbase once they're only mediocre. It's a much more enjoyable fan experience, in the end, to get there, miss, and claw your way back than it is to reach the throne on the first try.  

Honestly, I wonder if this run, especially if they win the Cup, might do more harm than good.

 

Making the playoffs, even the second or third round, could be seen as good for getting people's attention. I wonder if winning a Cup, in the first season, might not inadvertently set the fanbase, as a whole, up with exceedingly high expectations.

 

I'm not saying that they should tank the Final. Aside from the obvious "Vegas can't appreciate a championship as much as Washington, or even Tampa" argument, I just wonder if it might not make the fall off worse if/when the Knights experience mediocrity.

[OnWis97]

22 minutes ago, BeerGuyJordan said:

Honestly, I wonder if this run, especially if they win the Cup, might do more harm than good.

 

Making the playoffs, even the second or third round, could be seen as good for getting people's attention. I wonder if winning a Cup, in the first season, might not inadvertently set the fanbase, as a whole, up with exceedingly high expectations.

 

I'm not saying that they should tank the Final. Aside from the obvious "Vegas can't appreciate a championship as much as Washington, or even Tampa" argument, I just wonder if it might not make the fall off worse if/when the Knights experience mediocrity.

I absolutely think this could be a negative in the long run.  One of the benefits expansion teams have is that fans will put up with losing for at least a few years.  You go to games because you're excited to have the team/league.  You go to be a part of if from the beginning. Heck, you even go to see opposing teams/players.  You pay dues. 

 

I don't think it matters whether they win or lose the finals.  These fans are conditioned to following a competitive team.  When the team drops eight of its first ten some year, it'll be interesting to see what that does to the fanbase.  

 

So we seem to have competing theories.  First, everything's cool; quit whining (i.e., the expansion draft was not particularly beneficial).  Second, the expansion draft was beneficial in comparison with other expansion drafts and this is the case either because it was negotiated to go along with the hefty expansion fee or because they did not want "another Coyotes."

 

IF the NHL gave them a more preferential expansion draft because of the high expansion fee, then they really needed to be less greedy and let this team build like any other expansion team.  IF this was about "not another Coyotes" then I'd argue it wasn't a good market in the first place.  If they have reason to believe the team won't be successful, then it shouldn't be created.

[Alex Houston]

21 hours ago, FGM13 said:

 

It’s not really any consolation, as the last time the Oilers won the cup was ten years before I was even born. I like knowing that my team was one of the best dynasties of all time, but as I never got to experience it, hard to fall back on it.

 

I figured it probably didn't, mainly for the reasons you stated. Though I will say that if any other fan started to talk trash, I'd have to ask them to back up those criticisms with some tangible accomplishments from their squad. So yes, the 80s are long and dead but you have the proof something happened, which is in fact something. 

[The_Admiral]

5 hours ago, C-Squared said:

I am pulling for them big time, but I only somewhat followed Vegas during the regular season... can anyone intelligently explain why they're doing so well so soon? It seemed like everyone was down on their chances going into the season... was this a case of overly-generous expansion rules or a combination of good scouting, following the Pens/Hawks speed-first blueprint, and unexpected career years from guys like Fleury and Karlsson?

 

They run a super-fast short-shift dump-and-chase with high-volume shooting. Keenan figured out years ago that you can compensate for lesser talent by going harder in shorter shifts and Gallant seems to have taken this to the extreme, since their unique roster construction doesn't dictate the traditional allocation of ice time. They aren't following the Hawks' model at all, which is to have speed when you need it but to rely most on takeaways leading to carry-ins, setting up the cycle to open up lanes, limiting shot attempts against by simply having the puck so much more. (It turns out not to work when you don't have Marian Hossa and Niklas Hjalmarsson on the backcheck.) The Penguins run a more similar system, but with the benefit of elite forwards, they use north-south speed to set up more precise scoring chances rather than floor it the whole way through. As for the puck-chucking, well, it works when you have an ungodly shooting percentage like William Karlsson did. When it doesn't, you're the Hurricanes.

[Sport]

 

 

4 hours ago, JQK said:

No one was saying Vegas was a playoff team.
MOST people were saying Vegas was going to be the worst team in the league.
People didn't start crying "rigged" until the Knights failed to fade after a hot start.

 

I've never claimed it was rigged and I don't care what people were saying in October. A lot of experts thought the Capitals were going to miss the playoffs too. The proof in the present is that the league over-corrected for the mistakes they made in the last round of expansion and over-stacked the draft. 

But beyond that I was upset about the expansion draft rules when they were released and I felt like Vegas had a shot at competing this season so it's not like everybody was blindsided by this. 

 

 

4 hours ago, JQK said:

The expansion draft wasn't rigged.

 

 

Agreed because it wasn't rigged. It all happened out in the open. It was far more far favorable than previous expansion drafts. That's just the truth. 

 

4 hours ago, JQK said:

The expansion draft wasn't unfair.

 

 

Big disagree here. To the most recent group of expansion teams it most certainly was unfair. If they'd had the same terms as the last time expansion happened and they were still doing in the final then I'd be impressed, but they didn't so it's all been suspect to me ever since. 

 

4 hours ago, JQK said:

 

I'm sorry some team's fans are upset because their teams haven't smelled success in forever, and this brand new team is where they've never been, but that doesn't mean the system was rigged for them (or for Pittsburgh, or for Chicago, or for Detroit, or for anyone). This isn't the KHL, as much as some of you seem to want it SO BADLY to be.

 

Again, I don't see anybody claiming it was rigged. The problem is that even if accidental the league had too much influence in the competition of this season. 

 

4 hours ago, JQK said:

All this is, is Vegas getting lucky with a top-level goalie in Fleury (due to being pushed out in Pittsburgh in favor of Murray), and good scouting and GM work in picking up players the rest of the league's GM's felt were expendable, and the coach for getting the absolute most of of these guys.

 

 

What it is is teams saw VGK as a unique to unload salary for big contracts (Fluery and Neal) and then they landed a roster that is nothing but second liners thanks to the most generous expansion draft of all time, which means the lineup is spread out compared to their opponents who due to the crime of existing prior to this season had to play actual 3rd/4th liners and 3rd pair D, which allowed a couple VGK guys space to play above expectations. It's not mystical, they were simply given the depth that wins in today's NHL.

 

Give me a break on good scouting. That's a total myth. Most of their players were the no-brainer selection or the teams dictated who to take through trades. And Gerard Gallant is a fine hockey coach who got did dirty by Florida, but he's been handed a roster without a hole to coach around. I'm not that impressed. 

 

4 hours ago, JQK said:

 

There is no grand conspiracy. No one is out to get you.

 

It's not a conspiracy and nobody is claiming that. Your entire post was based on the false premise that people are upset because it was "rigged". Rigged implies purpose. No, I'm upset with the NHL because this was accidental. If they'd tried to rig it for Vegas it wouldn't have worked. I've said this since November - the league wanted to avoid another Thrashers situation and wildly over-corrected, which means one of their teams was unfairly assembled compared to their opponents. That's all. What I want is for people to stop treating this like a normal Cinderella run because it's not. If it was then I'd be on board, but I see what really happened and it's far less fun. 

[Sport]

4 hours ago, BeerGuyJordan said:

 

I never saw them being this good. Some of the credit absolutely has to go to the GM, coach, and players for making the most out of their circumstances. Acting like the draft had little to nothing to do with it is idiocy.

 

Most of their key contributors are expansion draftees. I don't get denying that they may have been overly favorable with the draft, which makes their impending championship feel a little less legitimate to me. I can't not feel that way. 

 

4 hours ago, BeerGuyJordan said:

 

I'm not disgusted with the Knights, themselves. This success has been key to making the most of their two year head start over the NFL. I loathe what this run represents: the owners being greedy and offering expansion terms that I think were way too generous, especially in light of how much they comparatively hobbled the last four expansion franchises. I'm saying that as a fan of the first of those four to claw their way to the Final. I can only imagine how much more frustrating this must be for the other three fanbases, especially Columbus.

 

 

Yes, this exactly. That's all. The league did a lot to help the Knights right away that they didn't do for the last batch of expansion, probably because of the difficulties faced by the last round of expansion. So in a way it's almost like my team did all the work that these guys get to benefit from without really doing anything. I'm coming at them from a perfectly defensible position from my point of view. 

[BeerGuyJordan]

3 hours ago, OnWis97 said:

I absolutely think this could be a negative in the long run.  One of the benefits expansion teams have is that fans will put up with losing for at least a few years.  You go to games because you're excited to have the team/league.  You go to be a part of if from the beginning. Heck, you even go to see opposing teams/players.  You pay dues. 

 

I don't think it matters whether they win or lose the finals.  These fans are conditioned to following a competitive team.  When the team drops eight of its first ten some year, IF the NHL gave them a more preferential expansion draft because of the high expansion fee, then they really needed to be less greedy and let this team build like any other expansion team.  IF this was about "not another Coyotes" then I'd argue it wasn't a good market in the first place.  If they have reason to believe the team won't be successful, then it shouldn't be created.

Why do the two reasons have to be mutually exclusive? I think that it's a combination of both.

 

The majority of sports teams aren't going to have a hardcore following, over their first decade. Fanbases take time to build. Some cities would take to a team right away, sure, but there are more circumstances where it's a formula of winning and running a good franchise.

 

Columbus is a great example of a great franchise that hasn't really had much on-ice success. They've still managed to grow a respectable fanbase, and that is to the credit of management. If they have a few years of deep playoff runs, I fully expect them to take off in a substantial way. 

 

Phoenix and Atlanta 2.0 are examples of what happens when you mismanage a team, and have little on-ice success to fall back on.

 

2 hours ago, McCarthy said:

What it is is teams saw VGK as a unique to unload salary for big contracts (Fluery and Neal) and then they landed a roster that is nothing but second liners thanks to the most generous expansion draft of all time,...

 

I get your point, but Neal wasn't a salary dump. Poile tried to make a deal, to go the 7F/3D route, and have them not take whichever of Ekholm/Ellis they left unprotected. McPhee apparently wanted too much for that deal.

 

The Preds opted to protect Jarnkrok, a younger player with improving numbers that they have locked in for five more seasons at $2 mil, before hitting RFA. Neal's numbers were on the decline, and he only had one more year at $5 mil before hitting UFA.

 

I'm sure salary played a factor, but it was the logical long-term move for a franchise looking to be a contender for years, not a salary dump.

[JayMac]

So what I gather from all of this is that this Knights run is fun and if you don't like it, you hate fun and hate sports.

[TBGKon]

The best 2 words of any playoff happen tonight......Game Seven.

 

Homer opinion aside, i think the Lightning have this in a close one.  Caps played their A+ game Monday and laid alot on the line to play for seven.  The Lightning need to shore up their offense, but they have the potential.

 

 

[Crabcake]

Tonight’s gonna be torture. I wonder what new ways the Caps will come up with to twist the knife on this fanbase. 

[Dalcowboyfan92]

3 hours ago, Crabcake47 said:

Tonight’s gonna be torture. I wonder what new ways the Caps will come up with to twist the knife on this fanbase. 

 

Oh, I hope they don't the bed. This team has to play hungry, aggressive, and be physically dominating; they're 60 minutes away from the mecca.

 

Play like they did in Game 6, and they should win; all things considered. Play like they did in Game 5...well...

[Unocal]

Compared to what’s going on in the NBA and CLE/GSW Part IV still looming.... I for one welcome our new Vegas overlords.

[Unocal]

On 5/21/2018 at 11:50 PM, the admiral said:

I disagree. A roster of six-hole hitters and third starters might be able to BS their way through an unusually weak division, but they wouldn't last in the postseason. One instance that comes to mind is the 2008 Cubs, who maybe weren't exactly the aforementioned, but lacked an honest-to-God ace (I think it was Dempster, Zambrano, and Lilly at the top of the rotation, all 2/3s at best) and had a lineup that surpassed what you'd expect on paper from those names at that time (Lee, Ramirez, Soriano, DeRosa, Theriot, a fresh-off-the-trash-heap Jim Edmonds). They played the Dodgers in the NLDS and went down in three games where they never looked like they were really there because uh oh, they couldn't beat up on crap anymore. I can assess that season much better ten years out, realizing that it wasn't randomness but a consequence of not having the dregs of the National League to gather wins against, but following a 97-win season with an NLDS sweep just killed my baseball fandom for years. Good thing that cold harsh reality will never have to happen to the "good" people of Las Vegas!

 

The NL Central was actually a strong division in 2008. The Dodgers if anything benefitted from a crap division 

[goalieboy82]

for Lightning and Caps fans.

 

[goalieboy82]

i think the Lightning will win 3-1 by the way.