the admiral

So I guess it's been ten years today, huh.

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the admiral    10,664

Of course, Santo was being Santo, but Pat Hughes, who is normally professional, let it get the best of him. There was definitely a sense of "oh my God, it's happening again. We'll be talking about this for years" in his broadcasting.

Erm, pretty sure Santo was ill during the NLCS and it was Pat Hughes with Steve Stone on the radio.

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Lights Out    2,243

The whole "Selig sabotaged teh Expos!!" thing is one of the most ridiculous arguments ever.

No, it's not. On August 28th of that year, they were leading the wildcard race with a 71-64 record, with the Marlins, Astros, Phillies, and Cardinals tied at 70-63. Then Selig announced that the Expos weren't going to be allowed to make call-ups that year because it "would cost too much," and they promptly finished 12-15 and missed the playoffs. It had to be demoralizing for the team for Selig to have pulled that crap.

On top of that, Selig's cost-cutting bull :censored: was one of the reasons Orlando Cabrera cited for wanting to leave the Expos. He was traded to the Red Sox at the deadline in the '04 season. On the day of that trade, they were 56-46 and behind the Rangers in the wildcard race. They promptly went on a 42-19 tear after the trade, made the playoffs, and the rest is history. If you think about it, that's two postseasons and World Series affected in some way by Selig forcing the Expos to DC.

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DG_Now    3,999

The whole "Selig sabotaged teh Expos!!" thing is one of the most ridiculous arguments ever.

No, it's not. On August 28th of that year, they were leading the wildcard race with a 71-64 record, with the Marlins, Astros, Phillies, and Cardinals tied at 70-63. Then Selig announced that the Expos weren't going to be allowed to make call-ups that year because it "would cost too much," and they promptly finished 12-15 and missed the playoffs. It had to be demoralizing for the team for Selig to have pulled that crap.

There was a time I rooted for the Yankees and the Expos. I grew up a Yankees fan, but I eventually grew out of it considering how grossly unfair the economics of baseball were at the turn of the century. I rooted for the Expos when Vladimir Guerrero came up because he looked like a latter-day Robert Clemente and I loved the team's logo.

Anyway, 2003 was when I gave up on baseball for all of the reasons Lights Out mentions. Selig screwed the Expos and baseball was never legitimate to me again. I was thrilled the Yankees lost that season; they deserved to lose and it felt good.

I have no opinion on the Cubs.

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HedleyLamarr    1,387

So Selig should have expanded the Expos' roster, even though the rest of the MLB owners (you know, the guys actually funding the team) didn't want to put any more money into the team than they absolutely had to? Sure does take some balls to tell the other 29 owners to put more money into the team. But it's not your money...why should you give a damn?

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the admiral    10,664

Leagues shouldn't own teams. Man, the economics of turn-of-the-century baseball were horrible. Too bad they still kinda are.

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Ice_Cap    7,794

If you're going to have the league own the team then you better be prepared to have the league run the team.

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Camden Crazy    28

Bartman needs to stop being such a pansy about the situation and just come out and do an interview. Him going into recluse like a sissy is one of the reasons why it's still talked about the way it is.

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TheOldRoman    1,099

Of course, Santo was being Santo, but Pat Hughes, who is normally professional, let it get the best of him. There was definitely a sense of "oh my God, it's happening again. We'll be talking about this for years" in his broadcasting.

Erm, pretty sure Santo was ill during the NLCS and it was Pat Hughes with Steve Stone on the radio.

Okay, I thought I remembered Santo moaning at that time, but I could have just mixed up past instances of him moaning that I had heard. But it was really eery listening to Hughes on the radio. He was projecting a sense of "this is is it, we're going to lose again." As a listener, I was thinking "Why is this a big deal? They're up by 3 and have an out already. No runs scored on the play." It was like I was naive and everybody else knew that was the Cubs' destiny.

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TheOldRoman    1,099

The whole "Selig sabotaged teh Expos!!" thing is one of the most ridiculous arguments ever.

No, it's not. On August 28th of that year, they were leading the wildcard race with a 71-64 record, with the Marlins, Astros, Phillies, and Cardinals tied at 70-63. Then Selig announced that the Expos weren't going to be allowed to make call-ups that year because it "would cost too much," and they promptly finished 12-15 and missed the playoffs. It had to be demoralizing for the team for Selig to have pulled that crap.

On top of that, Selig's cost-cutting bull :censored: was one of the reasons Orlando Cabrera cited for wanting to leave the Expos. He was traded to the Red Sox at the deadline in the '04 season. On the day of that trade, they were 56-46 and behind the Rangers in the wildcard race. They promptly went on a 42-19 tear after the trade, made the playoffs, and the rest is history. If you think about it, that's two postseasons and World Series affected in some way by Selig forcing the Expos to DC.

First to the second paragraph. Orlando Cabrera was a piece of crap. He was a good player for a few years, but I don't think his view have much to do with this. Look, the Expos would cease existing a few months after his trade to Boston, and everyone knew it. So I doubt they only traded him because he said he wouldn't re-sign there. And he did well for Boston, but he wasn't the catalyst which put that team over the top.

So, you think the Expos were so demoralized by not being able to pinch run with AAers that they torpedoed the season. I think that's false. And even if some of the players felt it was true, and there were direct quotes from them saying that they felt betrayed and there was no reason to try, it still wouldn't mean that they would have won the WC otherwise. From August 28th on (by the way, the Expos were TIED for first with those other teams), the Marlins went 21-8. The Expos would have had to go 20-7 over the rest of the season to tie the Marlins. I really don't think not having call-ups and the huge demoralizing fact that they didn't have call-ups cost the Expos 8 wins.

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illwauk    420

*Cue obligatory Cubs' fan Bartman thread post* :grin:

My story doesn't differ much from some of the stories told here already, but my dad's story is pretty unbelievable. The events of his story are 100% true.

So my dad has been a Cubs' fan since early adulthood. He's watched dozens upon dozens of Cubs' games from the Wrigley Field bleachers, and he's stayed true to his Cubbies through thick and thin. A true diehard, and as you're about to find out a remarkably unlucky individual.

He'd had a history with weird Cubs related incidents in the past. There was the time he was away from his apartment during the NLCS of 1984. He listened to the Cubs lose a decisive Game 5 to the Padres on the radio during the car ride home, only to find the formerly live and growing Wrigley Field ivy he'd plucked from the outfield wall earlier in the season shriveled up and dead behind the TV it had previously been growing atop of as a result of a party his roommate had thrown while he was gone.

Now flashing forward to the dawn of October 14, 2003. My father, an avid runner since his teenage years, was on one of hundreds of pre-work runs through our suburban Maryland neighborhood. He's undoubtably thinking about the game tonight as he runs; as a man who has sat through as many Cubs games as he has and has never seen his team in the World Series, the thought of a World Series berth is simply unbelievable. Just then, he notices a black cat crossing the road in front of him. He considers turning around, so as not to cross the cat's path, but the following thought goes through his head: "things that happen to fans do not affect the outcome of Major League Baseball games." He crosses the cat's path and keeps running. And, as we all know, later that same night, something that happens to a fan does affect the outcome of a Major League Baseball game, the Cubs lose Game 6 and Game 7 the next night, and the Marlins advance to the World Series.

I'd think that a lifelong Cubs fan like your dad would want to stay the hell away from black cats considering.......

I+see+black+cats+everywhere+%25281%2529.

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rams80    2,896

OK, so I was a senior in high school. Cross country season was ending for me, with a PB run coming at the Conference meet later that week. As I was one of "those students" I was also trying to balance cross county with the beginning of Scholastic Bowl season, Madrigals, and thinking about college-oh and I and my friends also followed the football team-even going so far as tailgating at road games (!) (we actually made the playoffs that season and beat the creepily pleasant white suburban community school whose zealotry for and skill at football was at generic Texan high school levels. At their stadium. That game was awesome BTW, particularly when we rushed the field.)

While I have no recollection now of doing so, a quick check of the Rams' schedule for that season indicates I stayed up the night prior to watch the Rams obliterate the Falcons and certainly not to do homework. I suspect we may have also celebrated my birthday that day, because Columbus Day is typically when we celebrated it as opposed to later in the week when it actually was.

While I was a Cardinals fan. I was interested in seeing the Cubs break through-my school had a mixed student body fandom wise and a few of my best friends were/are Cub fans. I don't remember much of the play itself, (I think I was balancing homework and acknowledging the game was on-I vaguely recall Dad saying what had just happened) but I do remember thinking that Baker really should have pulled Prior before the 8th because his pitch count was getting up there and I felt that 3 runs aren't that good of a cushion. I may be projecting, but I seem to also recall that I felt the Cubs were done after that game.

I also recall wondering whether that tool Blagojevich was A: at the game instead of being in Springfield like he should or B: preparing to exile Bartman from Illinois.

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the admiral    10,664

Cool, rams80 and I were like the same person in high school, except band instead of choir. You're my downstate spirit brother. teehee madrigals.

Funny that in the midst of this 2003 nostalgia, what do I see on my facebook tonight but a link to an AV Club piece about Homestar Runner! No flashback to ten years ago is complete without Trogdor The Burninator.

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rams80    2,896

Cool, rams80 and I were like the same person in high school, except band instead of choir. You're my downstate spirit brother. teehee madrigals.

Funny that in the midst of this 2003 nostalgia, what do I see on my facebook tonight but a link to an AV Club piece about Homestar Runner! No flashback to ten years ago is complete without Trogdor The Burninator.

You may laugh, but my high school treated Madrigals the way HBCUs treat band. People lined up/camped out for tickets the way they do for eagerly anticipated video game systems. We pulled out all the stops with costumes, decorating the entire friggin school with fake wall paneling, straw, wrought iron candleabras, and other faux-Renaissance castle adornments and enlisted about a 100+ student volunteers for serving, preparing food, and generally setting the atmosphere. They even had a half day Thursday and no school Friday of Madrigals week.

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rams80    2,896

There were, but I was trapped on the dais for much of the evening or processing in and out of the "dining hall" so regrettably I couldn't do much more than look. What food we got was nice, though, and the experience was great. My one quibble was that it took away from Scholastic Bowl senior year.

Although, again, my high school is clearly the exception here and it only got this big because the thing was self-funding thanks to it being in a blue collar suburb that culturally belonged to small town America (i.e. the adults have nothing better to do than creepily attend high school functions).

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HedleyLamarr    1,387

Bartman needs to stop being such a pansy about the situation and just come out and do an interview. Him going into recluse like a sissy is one of the reasons why it's still talked about the way it is.

They blew up the ball, dude. They're bat-sheeot crazy up there. I know I wouldn't want to be recognized in a city where there are folks ready to harm/kill me.

Like that 30-for-30 documentary said, Bartman got the blame because, of all the fans that were going for the ball, he least looked like "Average Joe"....he has this nerdy look to him. He didn't "look" like a big baseball fan.

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*Cue obligatory Cubs' fan Bartman thread post* :grin:

My story doesn't differ much from some of the stories told here already, but my dad's story is pretty unbelievable. The events of his story are 100% true.

So my dad has been a Cubs' fan since early adulthood. He's watched dozens upon dozens of Cubs' games from the Wrigley Field bleachers, and he's stayed true to his Cubbies through thick and thin. A true diehard, and as you're about to find out a remarkably unlucky individual.

He'd had a history with weird Cubs related incidents in the past. There was the time he was away from his apartment during the NLCS of 1984. He listened to the Cubs lose a decisive Game 5 to the Padres on the radio during the car ride home, only to find the formerly live and growing Wrigley Field ivy he'd plucked from the outfield wall earlier in the season shriveled up and dead behind the TV it had previously been growing atop of as a result of a party his roommate had thrown while he was gone.

Now flashing forward to the dawn of October 14, 2003. My father, an avid runner since his teenage years, was on one of hundreds of pre-work runs through our suburban Maryland neighborhood. He's undoubtably thinking about the game tonight as he runs; as a man who has sat through as many Cubs games as he has and has never seen his team in the World Series, the thought of a World Series berth is simply unbelievable. Just then, he notices a black cat crossing the road in front of him. He considers turning around, so as not to cross the cat's path, but the following thought goes through his head: "things that happen to fans do not affect the outcome of Major League Baseball games." He crosses the cat's path and keeps running. And, as we all know, later that same night, something that happens to a fan does affect the outcome of a Major League Baseball game, the Cubs lose Game 6 and Game 7 the next night, and the Marlins advance to the World Series.

I'd think that a lifelong Cubs fan like your dad would want to stay the hell away from black cats considering.......

I+see+black+cats+everywhere+%25281%2529.

Well, had he stayed the hell away there'd be a 2003 NL Pennant hanging on a Wrigley Field flag post right now. B)

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the admiral    10,664

Bartman needs to stop being such a pansy about the situation and just come out and do an interview. Him going into recluse like a sissy is one of the reasons why it's still talked about the way it is.

They blew up the ball, dude. They're bat-sheeot crazy up there. I know I wouldn't want to be recognized in a city where there are folks ready to harm/kill me.
Man, I wish we were still crazy about the Cubs. We've been so demoralized by the last three years of planned failure that it's hard to imagine getting wrapped up in any sort of emotion, dangerous or otherwise. Now we're just told that we have to sit patiently and wait for Genius Theo to rebuild the farm system and then sell lots of advertising because selling advertising is the key to being competitive, never mind that the Cubs were more competitive without it. Then we need our own local cable channel to maximize revenue, except the Cubs were most profitable when they had their games on a national channel oh and have a simply delightful day trying to leave Comcast for your own channel in a market that's controlled by Comcast. This organization is permanently ruined. Watching Prior and Farnsworth was as good as it was ever going to get. But hey, the Blackhawks have won two Stanley Cups and will probably win a third before Toews and Kane are done,

hyperbole-and-a-half-depression-psa.jpg

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C's    106

First to the second paragraph. Orlando Cabrera was a piece of crap. He was a good player for a few years, but I don't think his view have much to do with this. Look, the Expos would cease existing a few months after his trade to Boston, and everyone knew it. So I doubt they only traded him because he said he wouldn't re-sign there. And he did well for Boston, but he wasn't the catalyst which put that team over the top.

So, you think the Expos were so demoralized by not being able to pinch run with AAers that they torpedoed the season. I think that's false. And even if some of the players felt it was true, and there were direct quotes from them saying that they felt betrayed and there was no reason to try, it still wouldn't mean that they would have won the WC otherwise. From August 28th on (by the way, the Expos were TIED for first with those other teams), the Marlins went 21-8. The Expos would have had to go 20-7 over the rest of the season to tie the Marlins. I really don't think not having call-ups and the huge demoralizing fact that they didn't have call-ups cost the Expos 8 wins.

Cabrera didn't put us over the top?? Then what did? Do you remember how pitiful the Red Sox infield defense was in the first four months of 2004? I do. A hobbled, disgruntled Nomar wasn't doing dick at SS. Yeah, our subsequent winning streak and lower number of runs allowed after Cabrera and his defense arrived must be a coincidence. That piece of crap.

Montreal not getting the callups could easily have had both practical and psychological effects. Practical because September callups provide relief during the stretch run, where the games really start to pile up. Especially in the case of pitchers. More resources in the bullpen = more freedom to attack the other team's lineup as needed in an important game. Bullpen management becomes less of a delicate art form for the manager when more arms are available. A couple of bad pitching outings with a standard bullpen can have a snowball effect in the games to follow. The psychological part comes into play because the players know that they're playing the last month of the season shorthanded relative to every other team they'll face, and it will stay that way until they're either eliminated or pull off a mammoth upset with a WC berth. If you don't think that has impact on the field then I really don't know what to tell you. Would they have won the wildcard if they got the callups? Who knows. But trying to argue that Montreal didn't get boinked when Selig denied them is ridiculous. Whether they would have done it anyway doesn't change that fact.

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