NHL Anti-Thread: Bad Business Decision Aggregator

[NJTank]

Yeah, I agree with the Goldwater insitute as long as the team did not have an owner and the city was losing money that was not going to work. However, they have an owner and he must work something out with the city and if from there it is succesful than good for them, but if not than the owner a private owner is free to do what he wants and if he wants to move them to Qubec City, Regina or Yellow Knife he should be allowed.

[TheOldRoman]

Yeah, I agree with the Goldwater insitute as long as the team did not have an owner and the city was losing money that was not going to work. However, they have an owner and he must work something out with the city and if from there it is succesful than good for them, but if not than the owner a private owner is free to do what he wants and if he wants to move them to Qubec City, Regina or Yellow Knife he should be allowed.

Right. The potential owner would work something out with the city... which would amount to subsidies so he doesn't lose money on the team (although he will anyway). The city is going to lose money, whether the team succeeds or not. They are committing to losing an additional $100 million in this sale. This isn't some short term loan to help a down-on-its-luck business, these are subsidies to help the team exist because the doors can't stay open without them. And as soon as the subsidies run out, the new owner is free to move the team again! This deal would not only delay the inevitible, it would lead to the same thing five years down the road, where Glendale's stooge politicians give them several more years of subsidies to stay there.

[NJTank]

The Goldwater institute is a factor here and I dont think a subsidy is an issue or will be accpted.

[TheOldRoman]

The Goldwater institute is a factor here and I dont think a subsidy is an issue or will be accpted.

Tank, the subsidies are the thing that holds this deal together. Nobody is touching this team without the massive subsidies. If anybody wanted to buy the team on their own dollar and keep it in Glendale, they would have done so three years ago. The only way Glendale keeps the team is by giving them tens of millions annually. If this goes down, Goldwater will have to get involved, but that would lead to a lengthy legal battle which would keep the team in the desert for at least another year. The NHL has pretty much scoffed at Goldwater's threats of lawsuits thusfar, even though they are likely the reason the Hulsuizer deal fell through. That, and he didn't have any money.

[elliott]

Jamison is clearly a wizard when it comes to marketing. He raised the Dallas Mavericks in the 80s from nothing into a team with a well-run management system. Seemed to do much of the same with the Pacers for a 6-year stint after that. And he was able to help turn things around in San Jose, now they are a perennial winner. The Coyotes have most of the pieces. Strong coaching staff. Hard working players with plenty of offensive big bodies, a few young up and coming speedsters on offense, veterans, and one of the best defensive corps in the league (including a minor-league system stacked on defense). Oh, a really good goalie. A crafty general manager. Nice arena with a huge parking lot and plenty of restaurants and shops surrounding it. So the main thing that was missing was asses in seats. The franchise was poorly run by Moyes and Gretzky, poorly coached, terrible draft picks, terrible trades, the mid 00s were not good for this team. As a result, people didn't show up. That's how it works in Arizona. Cardinals, not the best attendance, Super bowl run, fantastic attendance now. Diamondbacks, world series run sparked interest in the team in the early part of the century, attendance tapered off but the teams recent success in past couple of years has once again filled chase field. Now the Coyotes are one of the best stories in the entire NHL and, not surprisingly, the fans that are so off-and-on in Arizona are taking notice. The interest is there. The fanbase is there and it's growing every day that the playoffs continue. Jamison can use this opportunity to put a structured and targeted marketing plan in place for next year that continues to maintain attendance and loyalty to the team. He's done it in 3 other markets. This playoff run will most likely lead to an increase in season ticket sales, sponsorships, merchandise... now it's a matter of sustaining this increase in revenue and using it to cancel out all of the debt and effectively turn around the franchises fortunes.

Obviously the most satisfying part of this playoff run is seeing the Coyotes win, it's exciting and it's a great feeling and honestly I wish I could make it out to the west coast for one of these games. But way down the list of "most satisfying" is probably seeing all of these bitter, anti-phoenix, canadians sputter as they search for more hate and poo to fling at the coyotes (oh, for the record, most small-market / non canadian hockey fans are rooting for the team, in case you haven't noticed, it's a pretty good script). The title of this thread shows exactly why less coyotes fans post on it. Because as soon as one steps up and offers a view other than what y'all believe, they get hazed and flamed and thrown in a road side ditch (wait, or am now i just talking about the ccslc in general? idk...). I haven't read this thread too much myself mostly because of that reason (besides the few drunken post-win celebratory comments)... but y'all can have your common sense and your conspiracy theories and your pessimistic look on the NHL. Go ahead. Take it. Phoenix is entrenched in one of the more magical sports runs in recent history and I'm along for the ride.

Keep on hatin. Go coyotes.

[rams80]

Jamison is clearly a wizard when it comes to marketing. He raised the Dallas Mavericks in the 80s from nothing into a team with a well-run management system. Seemed to do much of the same with the Pacers for a 6-year stint after that. And he was able to help turn things around in San Jose, now they are a perennial winner. The Coyotes have most of the pieces. Strong coaching staff. Hard working players with plenty of offensive big bodies, a few young up and coming speedsters on offense, veterans, and one of the best defensive corps in the league (including a minor-league system stacked on defense). Oh, a really good goalie. A crafty general manager. Nice arena with a huge parking lot and plenty of restaurants and shops surrounding it. So the main thing that was missing was asses in seats. The franchise was poorly run by Moyes and Gretzky, poorly coached, terrible draft picks, terrible trades, the mid 00s were not good for this team. As a result, people didn't show up. That's how it works in Arizona. Cardinals, not the best attendance, Super bowl run, fantastic attendance now. Diamondbacks, world series run sparked interest in the team in the early part of the century, attendance tapered off but the teams recent success in past couple of years has once again filled chase field. Now the Coyotes are one of the best stories in the entire NHL and, not surprisingly, the fans that are so off-and-on in Arizona are taking notice. The interest is there. The fanbase is there and it's growing every day that the playoffs continue. Jamison can use this opportunity to put a structured and targeted marketing plan in place for next year that continues to maintain attendance and loyalty to the team. He's done it in 3 other markets. This playoff run will most likely lead to an increase in season ticket sales, sponsorships, merchandise... now it's a matter of sustaining this increase in revenue and using it to cancel out all of the debt and effectively turn around the franchises fortunes.

Obviously the most satisfying part of this playoff run is seeing the Coyotes win, it's exciting and it's a great feeling and honestly I wish I could make it out to the west coast for one of these games. But way down the list of "most satisfying" is probably seeing all of these bitter, anti-phoenix, canadians sputter as they search for more hate and poo to fling at the coyotes (oh, for the record, most small-market / non canadian hockey fans are rooting for the team, in case you haven't noticed, it's a pretty good script). The title of this thread shows exactly why less coyotes fans post on it. Because as soon as one steps up and offers a view other than what y'all believe, they get hazed and flamed and thrown in a road side ditch (wait, or am now i just talking about the ccslc in general? idk...). I haven't read this thread too much myself mostly because of that reason (besides the few drunken post-win celebratory comments)... but y'all can have your common sense and your conspiracy theories and your pessimistic look on the NHL. Go ahead. Take it. Phoenix is entrenched in one of the more magical sports runs in recent history and I'm along for the ride.

Keep on hatin. Go coyotes.

So when this does collapse like the house of cards it is, I have one request.

Please don't adopt any of my teams as your new sock monkey.

[IceCap]

Jamison is clearly a wizard when it comes to marketing. He raised the Dallas Mavericks in the 80s from nothing into a team with a well-run management system. Seemed to do much of the same with the Pacers for a 6-year stint after that. And he was able to help turn things around in San Jose, now they are a perennial winner. The Coyotes have most of the pieces. Strong coaching staff. Hard working players with plenty of offensive big bodies, a few young up and coming speedsters on offense, veterans, and one of the best defensive corps in the league (including a minor-league system stacked on defense). Oh, a really good goalie. A crafty general manager. Nice arena with a huge parking lot and plenty of restaurants and shops surrounding it. So the main thing that was missing was asses in seats. The franchise was poorly run by Moyes and Gretzky, poorly coached, terrible draft picks, terrible trades, the mid 00s were not good for this team. As a result, people didn't show up. That's how it works in Arizona. Cardinals, not the best attendance, Super bowl run, fantastic attendance now. Diamondbacks, world series run sparked interest in the team in the early part of the century, attendance tapered off but the teams recent success in past couple of years has once again filled chase field. Now the Coyotes are one of the best stories in the entire NHL and, not surprisingly, the fans that are so off-and-on in Arizona are taking notice. The interest is there. The fanbase is there and it's growing every day that the playoffs continue. Jamison can use this opportunity to put a structured and targeted marketing plan in place for next year that continues to maintain attendance and loyalty to the team. He's done it in 3 other markets. This playoff run will most likely lead to an increase in season ticket sales, sponsorships, merchandise... now it's a matter of sustaining this increase in revenue and using it to cancel out all of the debt and effectively turn around the franchises fortunes.

Obviously the most satisfying part of this playoff run is seeing the Coyotes win, it's exciting and it's a great feeling and honestly I wish I could make it out to the west coast for one of these games. But way down the list of "most satisfying" is probably seeing all of these bitter, anti-phoenix, canadians sputter as they search for more hate and poo to fling at the coyotes (oh, for the record, most small-market / non canadian hockey fans are rooting for the team, in case you haven't noticed, it's a pretty good script). The title of this thread shows exactly why less coyotes fans post on it. Because as soon as one steps up and offers a view other than what y'all believe, they get hazed and flamed and thrown in a road side ditch (wait, or am now i just talking about the ccslc in general? idk...). I haven't read this thread too much myself mostly because of that reason (besides the few drunken post-win celebratory comments)...Phoenix is entrenched in one of the more magical sports runs in recent history and I'm along for the ride.

Please try to respond to the following facts as a sensible person, not as some bitter, angry fan who's still pissed that the Thrashers 1) left and 2) made more money in a small Canadian city then they did in the metropolis that is Atlanta.

Jamison's proposed deal, aside from being illegal, requires the city of Glendale to continue subsidizing the team to the tune of $17 million a year. Money they do not currently have, and can only get by raising taxes and cutting civil services. How is this good for the city of Glendale? Libraries have already been closed. What's next? Cutting the fire department? Laying off teachers? Cutting funding to road repair? What happens when Glendale 1) finally wakes up and decides to stop pissing away cash on a private business or 2) finally hits rock bottom and simply can't pay? Then Jamison will have to eat the loses that come with owning the Coyotes himself. Once that happens I guarantee you he'll want nothing to do with your beloved Coyotes.

Back to the illegal thing. This deal may not go through at all, as it violates Arizona state law. So aside from you, a Georgian, being ok with a city bankrupting itself to keep your special little team around, you have to deal with the fact that the offer on the table violates the law. So regardless of how good Jamison may be in turning teams around, it doesn't matter if the deal he's offering cannot legally happen.

Call these statements "hate" and "poo" all you want. You know what they really are? Facts. Facts that, in the real world, have to be addressed sooner or later. A bankrupt city paying for a sports team it cannot afford. A financial black hole of a team that's never once drawn a profit. Oh, a deal to buy the team that's illegal.

Also, it's more then just Canadians who want to see this joke of an organization move somewhere where they'd actually draw a profit. That much should be apparent. Get over the Jets hate already.

but y'all can have your common sense and your conspiracy theories and your pessimistic look on the NHL. Go ahead. Take it.

Oh, that's golden.

[drdougfresh]

I made this last year to show how poor fan support is for the Coyotes:

Using Detroit as a benchmark may make the Coyotes look extra bad, but here's the point: Those near 100% spikes were for the Detroit, Pittsburgh, and Dallas games, if I remember correctly. No one shows up for regular season games, and that's the big issue to me. This year, attendance looked worse at the DET v. PHX games, so it's certainly not helping that the Coyotes are a playoff team? especially when there's a TON of empty seats at a game against your new, heated "rival." We'll see what happens next year, but I'm not holding my breath.

AZ is a "win and we'll show up" state. Drives me crazy.

[The_Admiral]

McCarthy, this league owned line of yours is utter crap. Was it bad for baseball that the Rangers were league owned half a season and went to the World Series?

Or was it better to have the leagued owned Montreal Expos have their hands tied so tightly behind their back it has taken nearly a decade after moving and getting stable ownership to finally become a good team.

Would you rather have a league owned team allowed to compete like the Coyotes or broken down like the New Orleans Hornets?

I want neither. When you have a league engineering the fortunes of a team to determine where it will do business, that looks terrible. The way the Montreal Expos were gutted to facilitate their relocation as was galling as the way the Coyotes' brand of lowest-common-denominator hockey suddenly became good enough to overtake a previously finesse-oriented league.

Anyone who's rooting for the Coyotes to keep stacking defenders in the slot and clogging the neutral zone waiting for turnovers because it's a "good story" is a "bad fan." It's really a fundamentally unwatchable brand of hockey they have going, but I suppose that's the way you win when you're being made to win without talent: just bring everyone else down to your level. Unless, of course, it's commonplace for elite teams to get doubled up in shots on goal on a regular basis.

[IceCap]

I made this last year to show how poor fan support is for the Coyotes:

Using Detroit as a benchmark may make the Coyotes look extra bad, but here's the point: Those near 100% spikes were for the Detroit, Pittsburgh, and Dallas games, if I remember correctly. No one shows up for regular season games, and that's the big issue to me. This year, attendance looked worse at the DET v. PHX games, so it's certainly not helping that the Coyotes are a playoff team— especially when there's a TON of empty seats at a game against your new, heated "rival." We'll see what happens next year, but I'm not holding my breath.

AZ is a "win and we'll show up" state. Drives me crazy.

Stop flinging poo and hate you Arizonan Canadian!

[elliott]

Yeah, so how long have your "facts" actually been predicting the truth icecap? Weren't the Coyotes supposed to move like, 3 years ago because of your precious "facts"? Wait, they haven't. Haven't moved and they aren't going to. Sorry bout it.

Oh, and I know I'm not exactly the poster boy for an unbiased look at this situation, it's pretty clear where my allegiances lie. But the only reason I'm on this thread with these types of " you guys" posts is because no one has been speaking for one side of the situation. Y'all are on some type of vendetta against the Coyotes... looking back through this thread with all of the multitudes of "yea they are definitelyyyy moving to QC" comments... I mean, it's not gonna happen.

I'm fully aware that plenty of sarcastic, MOD EDIT comments are coming my way-- don't worry, I understand how the internet works. I get what a flamewar is. And clearly I'm poking the dog. Don't care.

Fact of the matter is.... most of the NHL sees this as an incredible underdog story. Look at any other message board. I've seen so many people say they are behind the coyotes and their story, so many people from random teams saying.. good luck or.. I hope y'all beat the odds. No credit on here. Just hate.

[rams80]

Yeah, so how long have your "facts" actually been predicting the truth icecap? Weren't the Coyotes supposed to move like, 3 years ago because of your precious "facts"? Wait, they haven't. Haven't moved and they aren't going to. Sorry bout it.

That's because the City of Glendale's Council tosses around $25 million subsidies like a sailor on leave without any regard for the consequences to municipal services. The Coyotes would be long gone if not for that.

[pollux]

Fact of the matter is.... most of the NHL sees this as an incredible underdog story. Look at any other message board. I've seen so many people say they are behind the coyotes and their story, so many people from random teams saying.. good luck or.. I hope y'all beat the odds. No credit on here. Just hate.

Out of curiosity, what do they exactly see as the incredible underdog story? Their current run for the Cup or that there might finally be an owner willing to buy the franchise?

[IceCap]

Yeah, so how long have your "facts" actually been predicting the truth icecap? Weren't the Coyotes supposed to move like, 3 years ago because of your precious "facts"? Wait, they haven't.

Having the Commissioner move mountains to keep them in place and a municipality dumb enough to prostitute itself to go along helps out.

So why don't you address the facts, eh?

The team has never once drawn a profit, having flushed more then $400 million down the crapper since the moved to Arizona.

Glendale is on the road to financial ruin, spending money they don't have to keep this team around. They've closed libraries to make the payments they promised the NHL.

The deal Jamison has on the deal would not relieve the financial burden on the city. Jamison would still demand tens of millions a year from the city to cover the costs of operating the team. So first libraries. What else? What other essential civil services are worth cutting or scraping to keep a sports team around?

Also, Jamison's deal violates Arizona state law.

Now I'm asking you, can you actually address these concerns? Or are you just going to be a naive, blind-to-reality MOD EDIT about it?

Fact of the matter is.... most of the NHL sees this as an incredible underdog story.

Super. Life's not a movie though. Winning it all doesn't solve everything. The financial situation, both of the team and the city they play (while sucking dry) is dire, and no one's offered up a deal to keep them in place that's actually legal.

Your entire outlook on this topic is fuelled by sentimentality. Which is noble, I'll give you that. It's just not realistic. Not by a long shot. You're letting emotions cloud you to the very real problems that exist with this team in its current location.

[NJTank]

McCarthy, this league owned line of yours is utter crap. Was it bad for baseball that the Rangers were league owned half a season and went to the World Series?

Or was it better to have the leagued owned Montreal Expos have their hands tied so tightly behind their back it has taken nearly a decade after moving and getting stable ownership to finally become a good team.

Would you rather have a league owned team allowed to compete like the Coyotes or broken down like the New Orleans Hornets?

I want neither. When you have a league engineering the fortunes of a team to determine where it will do business, that looks terrible. The way the Montreal Expos were gutted to facilitate their relocation as was galling as the way the Coyotes' brand of lowest-common-denominator hockey suddenly became good enough to overtake a previously finesse-oriented league.

Anyone who's rooting for the Coyotes to keep stacking defenders in the slot and clogging the neutral zone waiting for turnovers because it's a "good story" is a "bad fan." It's really a fundamentally unwatchable brand of hockey they have going, but I suppose that's the way you win when you're being made to win without talent: just bring everyone else down to your level. Unless, of course, it's commonplace for elite teams to get doubled up in shots on goal on a regular basis.

So you like the NBA model where you got 3 or 4 good teams that can win and the Washington Generals and a baked up schemed up final with the officals helping to get the biggest stars in the biggest games.

[Gothamite]

Is the antidote to that having a city subsidize a failing private business to the tune of tens of millions of taxpayer dollars every year? Really?

[TheOldRoman]

Yeah, so how long have your "facts" actually been predicting the truth icecap? Weren't the Coyotes supposed to move like, 3 years ago because of your precious "facts"? Wait, they haven't. Haven't moved and they aren't going to. Sorry bout it.

Oh, and I know I'm not exactly the poster boy for an unbiased look at this situation, it's pretty clear where my allegiances lie. But the only reason I'm on this thread with these types of " you guys" posts is because no one has been speaking for one side of the situation. Y'all are on some type of vendetta against the Coyotes... looking back through this thread with all of the multitudes of "yea they are definitelyyyy moving to QC" comments... I mean, it's not gonna happen.

I'm fully aware that plenty of sarcastic, MOD EDIT comments are coming my way-- don't worry, I understand how the internet works. I get what a flamewar is. And clearly I'm poking the dog. Don't care.

Fact of the matter is.... most of the NHL sees this as an incredible underdog story. Look at any other message board. I've seen so many people say they are behind the coyotes and their story, so many people from random teams saying.. good luck or.. I hope y'all beat the odds. No credit on here. Just hate.

Fans that think this is any kind of cinderella story haven't followed the saga for three years. They don't know how many hoops the league has jumped through to keep the team there and give them favorable scheduling. They don't know the fan indifference. They either don't understand the amount of money a bankrupt city is giving this private company or they're like, "that's okay, I like hockey lolz."

So, this is what it all boils down to. You can hope that Jamison can actually make people care about the team, that's fine. However, a bankrupt city will be giving him over $100 million to try to do so. And Jamison's potential losses are minimized because, if he fails to turn the team around, he will go back to Glendale in five years threatening to move if he doesn't get more money. I don't care whether or not you like the team. You have to answer - do you think it's okay that the city which can't pay police officers is giving tens of millions of dollars to prop up a failing team?

[IceCap]

McCarthy, this league owned line of yours is utter crap. Was it bad for baseball that the Rangers were league owned half a season and went to the World Series?

Or was it better to have the leagued owned Montreal Expos have their hands tied so tightly behind their back it has taken nearly a decade after moving and getting stable ownership to finally become a good team.

Would you rather have a league owned team allowed to compete like the Coyotes or broken down like the New Orleans Hornets?

I want neither. When you have a league engineering the fortunes of a team to determine where it will do business, that looks terrible. The way the Montreal Expos were gutted to facilitate their relocation as was galling as the way the Coyotes' brand of lowest-common-denominator hockey suddenly became good enough to overtake a previously finesse-oriented league.

Anyone who's rooting for the Coyotes to keep stacking defenders in the slot and clogging the neutral zone waiting for turnovers because it's a "good story" is a "bad fan." It's really a fundamentally unwatchable brand of hockey they have going, but I suppose that's the way you win when you're being made to win without talent: just bring everyone else down to your level. Unless, of course, it's commonplace for elite teams to get doubled up in shots on goal on a regular basis.

So you like the NBA model where you got 3 or 4 good teams that can win and the Washington Generals and a baked up schemed up final with the officals helping to get the biggest stars in the biggest games.

Why does it have to be either?

Can't we have parity without dragging down the quality of play?

It seems rather counter-productive to promote poorly played hockey as something positive when the league is trying to promote itself to casual American fans.

[Lights Out]

I'm not an NHL fan, but I've been following the Coyotes' bizarre situation. While I have no problem with them winning it all, it's impossible to look past how the residents of Glendale have been screwed over to prop up a (financially) failing franchise that they largely don't care about. That's all people are saying - winning in sports should never have to come at the expense of the city's wellbeing.

[goalieboy82]

what is the chance that another team will move this summer (to GC). something tells me that if the coyotes dont get an owner (or get an owner) they will move the team to seattle.