Fun With Flags!!!!

[GriffinM6]

1 hour ago, RyanMcD29 said:

The city of Syracuse is going through the process of a new flag

 

The two that use orange are both the clear frontrunners. I honestly don't know which to choose between the two of them.

[DTConcepts]

 

 

[chcarlson23]

I’m very happy that a lot of the crappy state flags are being changed. It’s an exciting time as an amateur vexillologist. But there seems to be a lot of people who still prefer terribly designed flags that match a ton of other states in the union. I just don’t understand the push back on it… 

 

I’m glad you think you flag represents you, but it’s failing when I can’t tell if it’s Michigan’s or Vermont’s or Kansas’s flag. So where ya from bud? I’m fairly certain no one is going to confuse Colorado and New Mexico by their state flags, and that’s exactly the point. 
 

I know everyone won’t have the same design sense, and some people just can’t understand design, but like what reason do these states have to not pass these changes through? 

[DTConcepts]

11 hours ago, chcarlson23 said:

I’m very happy that a lot of the crappy state flags are being changed. It’s an exciting time as an amateur vexillologist. But there seems to be a lot of people who still prefer terribly designed flags that match a ton of other states in the union. I just don’t understand the push back on it… 

 

I’m glad you think you flag represents you, but it’s failing when I can’t tell if it’s Michigan’s or Vermont’s or Kansas’s flag. So where ya from bud? I’m fairly certain no one is going to confuse Colorado and New Mexico by their state flags, and that’s exactly the point. 
 

I know everyone won’t have the same design sense, and some people just can’t understand design, but like what reason do these states have to not pass these changes through? 

 

Generally speaking, the seals that adorn most of these flags make lots of nods to local history, industry, politics, and community that a lot of folks don't want to lose. After reading the comments under that Maine article, it also seems that there are lots of people who think that legislators focusing on flags rather than, well, legislation is a waste of time. I'd imagine that feeling is replicable across the country.

[Pharos04]

On 11/10/2022 at 5:43 PM, Foxxtrot44 said:

New flag for the state of Utah to be voted on during the next legislative session

 

 

picked from these options

https://ksltv.com/510923/new-utah-state-flag-options-narrowed-to-top-5/

Guess we all missed the follow up on this. Looks like this new design was approved by voters and will go into effect March 9, 2024

 

https://flag.utah.gov

[IceCap]

On 6/9/2023 at 12:13 AM, chcarlson23 said:

But there seems to be a lot of people who still prefer terribly designed flags that match a ton of other states in the union. I just don’t understand the push back on it… 

Ok. So do you know why so many US states have "seal/coat of arms on a blue field" designs? Because these were standard regiment designs in the Union army during the US Civil War. Following the War a lot of states adopted the simple "seal on a blue field" design specifically because they wanted to invoke the memories of those Union Army regimental flags, and to feel like their state "belonged" in the Union. The Civil War had saved the Union, after all, and a lot of people wanted their state flag to "look the part" of being part of the greater whole.

 

After over a century that reasoning became somewhat forgotten and a crop of young vexillologists decided it was time to push for redesigns or re-adoptions of older, more unique designs. And it's all very understandable. It seems like a problem if you don't have the knowledge of why these states all have similar flags.

 

The thing is that as this push increases more and more people are looking into why the "seal on a blue field" template became so prominent in the first place and when they discover the reason it resonates with them. Sometimes more powerfully then a better designed alternative.

 

On 6/9/2023 at 12:13 AM, chcarlson23 said:

I know everyone won’t have the same design sense, and some people just can’t understand design, but like what reason do these states have to not pass these changes through? 

I forgot who said it, but there was a vexillologist who had a good point when the New Zealand flag debate was going on a few years back. A flag is not a sports team logo, nor is it a corporate logo. It has in it the symbolism and history of whatever it's representing. As this vexillologist put it not liking your flag because it's not "well designed" enough is like not liking your relatives if they're not good looking. It kind of misses the point.

[SFGiants58]

Laser Kiwi actually was good in terms of symbolism, certainly more than any of the “sports logo” designs that made it to the final rounds.

 

Laser Kiwi is a joke, yes. But it’s also a joke that poked massive holes in “Key’s Folly” and is an important lesson in flag design.

[IceCap]

2 hours ago, SFGiants58 said:

Laser Kiwi is a joke, yes. But it’s also a joke that poked massive holes in “Key’s Folly” and is an important lesson in flag design.

Laser Kiwi is exactly the flag that debacle deserved. 

[The_Admiral]

9 hours ago, IceCap said:

Ok. So do you know why so many US states have "seal/coat of arms on a blue field" designs? Because these were standard regiment designs in the Union army during the US Civil War. Following the War a lot of states adopted the simple "seal on a blue field" design specifically because they wanted to invoke the memories of those Union Army regimental flags, and to feel like their state "belonged" in the Union. The Civil War had saved the Union, after all, and a lot of people wanted their state flag to "look the part" of being part of the greater whole.

 

After over a century that reasoning became somewhat forgotten and a crop of young vexillologists decided it was time to push for redesigns or re-adoptions of older, more unique designs. And it's all very understandable. It seems like a problem if you don't have the knowledge of why these states all have similar flags.

 

The thing is that as this push increases more and more people are looking into why the "seal on a blue field" template became so prominent in the first place and when they discover the reason it resonates with them. Sometimes more powerfully then a better designed alternative.

 

It's interesting because this state vexillology fad, being at its heart a graphic design gig, is left-coded, while a distinct and strong state identity at the expense of a strong federal identity is, of course, very right-coded. If you're designing a cleverly symbolic flag for the state of Idaho, you probably don't want the people of Idaho to wrap themselves in their very clever flag as a symbol of their uniquely Idahoan peoplehood, because you probably won't like where they go with it. 

[SFGiants58]

More often than not, the state vexillology projects are geared towards a distinct mercantilism, namely “what would look good on a coffee mug or a phone case” and not something that would resonate with the state populace.
 

This same thought process gives us the People’s Flag of Milwaukee or any number of seal-on-a-bedsheet fixes. Merchandise should not be the first concern with flag design, but here we are.

[The_Admiral]

That's a good point. It's like my joke about how Chicago/DC/California flags are tattoos for ex-hXc thirtysomething bartenders.

 

I always felt the unremarkable nature of most state flags was kind of the point. Quebec and Texas have striking and iconic flags of their own, and look what they're always getting up to.

 

 

[IceCap]

3 hours ago, the admiral said:

That's a good point. It's like my joke about how Chicago/DC/California flags are tattoos for ex-hXc thirtysomething bartenders.

I feel like a lot of people see the Chicago/DC/Cali flags and instantly want something like that for their city or state but those flags came about because of very specific reasons. A slickly designed flag meant to look good printed on a beer cooler isn't going to resonate the same way. 

 

3 hours ago, the admiral said:

I always felt the unremarkable nature of most state flags was kind of the point. Quebec and Texas have striking and iconic flags of their own, and look what they're always getting up to.

I think most flags that are past a certain age tell a story, even the "seal on a blue field" ones and that telling the story is more important than whatever new design is being pushed tells. 

 

I rather like the idea of states having a flag that's a seal on a blue field because they wanted to honour their state's Union Army regiments. The Confederate side sort of got to monopolize the space of memorializing the Civil War, and celebrating Union iconography isn't a bad thing. 

[The_Admiral]

9 minutes ago, IceCap said:

I feel like a lot of people see the Chicago/DC/Cali flags and instantly want something like that for their city or state but those flags came about because of very specific reasons. A slickly designed flag meant to look good printed on a beer cooler isn't going to resonate the same way. 

 

There is, to borrow a DFW turn of phrase, an "elusive sameness" about new flag concepts. I can't articulate it, but thumb through the pages of this thread and you'll see what I mean. They all look like they were done by, if not the same person, then people with the same design training, tools, and sensibilities. It's like a modern-art-wing version of Brandiose, where there are twice as many elements crammed in as there need to be and all of them are freighted with meanings that get more and more arcane as you go down the list. All of that eventually raises the question: who is this really for?

[SFGiants58]

16 minutes ago, IceCap said:

I feel like a lot of people see the Chicago/DC/Cali flags and instantly want something like that for their city or state but those flags came about because of very specific reasons. A slickly designed flag meant to look good printed on a beer cooler isn't going to resonate the same way. 

The Milwaukee People’s Flag is the most egregious offender in this regard. It looks like it was meant for merchandise and not much else.

 

 

It’s very much a product of bourgeois white Milwaukee, which happened to be where I hung out the most in the city when I lived there. It also is way too similar to Reno’s actual flag (in the same “merch” style).

 

 

The “merch” style of flag very much misunderstands the historical circumstances behind the DC/Chicago/Southwestern flags, leading to an artificial sameness.

[Germanshepherd]

 

While I do think seal on bedsheet designs are lame,  it’s hard to disagree that corporate art falls into similar traps. 
 

I think the solution lies somewhere in the middle, like California’s flag where you slap a detailed ass bear on it and call it a day. 

[IceCap]

1 hour ago, Germanshepherd said:

I think the solution lies somewhere in the middle, like California’s flag where you slap a detailed ass bear on it and call it a day. 

The problem is that California's design emerged organically. That's not something you can replicate. 

Thing is it's a rare organic design that happened to be fairly unique. It's the dragon all of these lame af corporate designs are chasing but they'll never get there because "hey guys I graduated with a degree in graphic design in 2013" isn't a substitute for the unique historic events that led to the Californian flag being what it is. 

 

1 hour ago, Germanshepherd said:

While I do think seal on bedsheet designs are lame...

My attitude is "lame" or not they're the way they are because of history and that has meaning. A flag should reflect that meaning more than it looks like a beer label. 

 

17 hours ago, the admiral said:

I can't articulate it, but thumb through the pages of this thread and you'll see what I mean. They all look like they were done by, if not the same person, then people with the same design training, tools, and sensibilities.

Because they were. They were all designed either by people who got graphic design degrees in the last ten years or self-taught "amateurs" who studied the same people and programs. 

 

The Brandiose comparison is spot-on. It's reflective of an "in house" style. 

[SFGiants58]

Honestly, these flag designs would be better as either corporate-style city logos (e.g., a website banner or a social media avatar) or license plates. Both don’t contain the inherent symbolism of a flag and can be changed up/opted out of by anybody.

 

Hell, one of our designers here did an excellent job with license plates!

 

But again, plates and web logos are inherently different from flags. Trying to combine the two art forms results in the “2010s graphic design” aesthetic that just looks tiring now.

[maz]

 

I get the reason for almost all the flags to be the same. And I get the reason for wanting them all to be different. Both are entirely valid. It's a union of states, but it's also a union of states. A new flag doesn't take away the history and symbolism of the old flag or suddenly mean that state didn't do its part to save the Union a century and a half ago.

 

Why not a system similar to a lot of other countries that have a civil and a state flag? For example: Germany. We all know the plain three-stripes flag. It's what you see representing Germany all the time. We all know and recognize it. But, the actual  flag of Germany is the version with the eagle and shield on the front. The state flag is also often the war flag. So why couldn't US states have their own version of a "civil flag" that is slapped on t-shirts and bumper stickers, flown outside people's housesand civilian buildings, etc, and then, the blue-and-seal design in government chambers, outside government buildings, and by each state's National Guard (making it similar to a "war flag" and preserving the initial function of that flag back during the Civil War - where some state national guards had their finest hours). And if some of them want to use it for both, then fine. But no matter what, it is still there to keep that connection to the Union.

 

That might be overcomplicating it a tiny bit, but it's a compromise.

 

Also, if we are going to rule aesthetics as not being the priority in US state flags, and for symbolism to be considered first, then I don't think the proposed designs should be getting instantly written off for looking "looking like it's from some amateur or graduate student in 2015," hence judged by it's aesthetics before symbolism.

 

[The_Admiral]

I like how that video talks about these prescriptions for flag design, one of them being that you can't have more than three colors on a flag. Hmm! I can think of a certain flag that was recently expanded to an astonishing 11 colors. Do you think the same people trying to design a new flag for Salt Lake City are the least bit upset with that transgression? I don't!

[Foxxtrot44]

19 hours ago, SFGiants58 said:

 

 

The “merch” style of flag very much misunderstands the historical circumstances behind the DC/Chicago/Southwestern flags, leading to an artificial sameness.

 

Aww look, those two flags got together and made a baby!

 

That's the winner of the Ogden city flag do-over.
Here's what it beat. One of these is genuinely great and I cant believe it didn't win.
https://www.ogdencity.com/DocumentCenter/View/23741/02-07-23-WS-Flag-Design