Stadium/Arena Saga Omnibus

[bosrs1]

2 hours ago, Walk-Off said:

https://newballpark.org/2021/07/08/lets-take-stock/

 

In the above link is how NewBallpark.org's writer has assessed yesterday's Howard Terminal ballpark project study session at the Oakland City Council.

 

I'm kind of the same opinion as Marine Layer at this point. I don't see how they get this done. The two sides, really three sides, are very far apart on something that is supposed to start really getting in motion in 2 weeks. Throw in that we learn MLB has been doing leg work for 2 years in Vegas and now the A's have made no secret of their infatuation with that region... At this rate they could have a stadium deal by the holidays in Las Vegas with multiple cities not only willing to work with them but to actively make things easier for them, where  Oakland and Alameda County will still be spinning their wheels and throwing up roadblocks because they don't see the A's as providing their city/county any real value.

 

Not saying Oakland would be wrong. Sports teams are historically money pits for cities. But they're a prestige item that for Oakland once lost, aren't coming back. They'll go down in history if I'm not mistaken as the only city in America to lose an NHL, NBA, NFL (twice) and MLB team. 

[FiddySicks]

On 7/2/2021 at 11:40 AM, SFGiants58 said:

 

That reminds me of how the A's got kicked out of revenue sharing a few years ago (IIRC). They're a part of Fisher's real estate plans, which is why the "Howard Terminal or Bust" stuff is more about Fisher getting to develop the area. Revenue sharing took some of the "burden" off Fisher, until MLB kicked them off of it. Kaval simply replaced Wolff as the public face.

 

 

Well, we must first put those nine titles (and six additional AL pennants) into context. The Athletics have been a boom-and-bust franchise going back over 100 years, with the 1910s titles followed by Connie Mack getting cheap and losing his core. The Great Depression broke up the 1929-31 teams with Mack's investments taking a hit. The Kansas City years are a black mark for everybody involved. The early-mid '70s A's dynasty met its demise through Charlie O. being incredibly cheap and opposing the arrival of free agency (also, those clubs derived a lot of unity from their mutual dislike of Charlie O. ). The A's of the late-'80s and early-'90s just gradually fell apart over the '90s and turned into the team you see today.

 

A boom-and-bust franchise history, rather than just pure consistency with small bits of downtime (Yankees and Cardinals), is why the A's are where they are now. Honestly, maybe things would've turned out better if Charlie O. sold the team to Ewing Kauffman and Kauffman kept the team in KC. 

It just goes to show that the only truly consistent thing about the A’s is always having cheap ass owners. 

[FiddySicks]

On 7/2/2021 at 12:08 PM, bosrs1 said:

 

If not for their 9 World Series wins it might actually be a mercy to erase the A's from MLB and start fresh with an organization no so permeated with penny pinching.  And I say this who grew up a die hard A's fan, whose parents are still A's fans, and who has probably seen more games at the Coliseum than I'd care to admit.  But even someone of my attachment to them couldn't endure the seemingly never ending decades of this nonsense.  

This is exactly how I feel about it. I was born maybe ten minutes from the coliseum, and could see the blimp fly over our house during games we were so close. I love so many things about the A’s. The colors, the goofy mascot, the Bash Bros, etc. They’re the organization that legit got me into baseball. The first game I ever went to as a kid was at the Coliseum (and it was a garbage dump back then, too). I got interested in sports media and sports logos in part because of them as well. But it’s all just been such a joke for so long now. I’m just so fatigued by their whole situation at this point. I just want them to go away. The main reason I even switched to being primarily a Giants fan is because where I grew up, they stopped broadcasting A’s games on basic cable. At that point it was like, these cheap asses aren’t worth listening to on the radio.  Why continue to even care? 
 

I just wonder what the point of the A’s is any longer. They almost feel like a money laundering scheme at this point. 

 

Very interesting history. Not exactly a fond one a lot of the times though, either. Imagine if any of the other hapless old timey teams had nine titles to their name…

[SFGiants58]

I was born in December 1993 (in Los Angeles, of all places), so the only A’s I’ve known are the cheapskates that can’t win a playoff series. Beyond having Giants fans as parents, literally all of my age group were Giants fans first. Heck, when I doing my undergrad in Portland, it was 65/35 Giants/Mariners. 
 

I love the history, the mascot, and especially the colors. I even really like some of the current players. But gosh darn, every facet of the team beyond that seems designed to alienate as many people as possible. The A’s, in my life, have been the baseball equivalent of the Game of Thrones finale.

 

EDIT: Also, no journalist thought to ask the territory rights question in 1990 during the Santa Clara ballot measure. I searched both The San Francisco Chronicle and San José Mercury News archives and saw jack squat about it during the early-90s. The earliest mentions of territory rights aren’t until after the Haas sale.

 

Edited July 9, 2021 by SFGiants58

[Walk-Off]

Earlier this evening, the Las Vegas Review-Journal posted the following story on its website:

 

Oakland A’s meet with local leaders, plan 4th trip to Las Vegas

[Red Comet]

The Las Vegas A’s. 
 

Just typing that feels so wrong. 

[bosrs1]

A’s have apparently been exploring a temporary stay at the Las Vegas Aviators AAA park. Looks like they won’t hang around as lame ducks like the Raiders...
 

https://www.reviewjournal.com/sports/baseball/oakland-as-exploring-possible-temporary-stint-at-las-vegas-ballpark-2396397/

[IceCap]

16 hours ago, bosrs1 said:

A’s have apparently been exploring a temporary stay at the Las Vegas Aviators AAA park. Looks like they won’t hang around as lame ducks like the Raiders...
 

https://www.reviewjournal.com/sports/baseball/oakland-as-exploring-possible-temporary-stint-at-las-vegas-ballpark-2396397/

Probably for the best. I had hoped the Raiders would have played a few seasons at Sam Boyd Stadium.

[DustDevil61]

On 7/10/2021 at 4:32 PM, bosrs1 said:

A’s have apparently been exploring a temporary stay at the Las Vegas Aviators AAA park. Looks like they won’t hang around as lame ducks like the Raiders...
 

https://www.reviewjournal.com/sports/baseball/oakland-as-exploring-possible-temporary-stint-at-las-vegas-ballpark-2396397/

 

9 hours ago, IceCap said:

Probably for the best. I had hoped the Raiders would have played a few seasons at Sam Boyd Stadium.

 

If they're trying to escape the (worst of) the heat, the Athletics could always temporarily set up shop in Salt Lake with this backdrop while waiting for a new ballpark in Las Vegas to be built:

 

 

I know that some local sports radio talking heads (among them former Lions great Scott Mitchell ) that made a pitch for the Raiders to temporarily set up shop in Utah last year (as silly as the concept of the "Utah Raiders" sounds) did something similar with the A's once they announced their intention to explore relocation back in May. Oh well, a man can dream.

 

It's ultimately little more than an article to spur talk, given the logistics of pulling that off (chief among them is where the AAA Bees go), but it's always fun to think about. It's just crazy to me how quickly Las Vegas is going from 0 to possibly 3 teams in under a decade, previous gambling issues or not.

 

Anyways, the temporary Las Vegas Ballpark setup talk does spur another question if the A's do move to Vegas: What happens to the what, 2-, 3-year-old ballpark when an even newer big league park opens (as it inevitably will)? What happens to the AAA Aviators if the Athletics come to town--where do they go? Could there be the possibility of doing some kind of switcheroo, with the MLB team going to Las Vegas and the AAA team going to Oakland?

 

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by DustDevil61
URL tweaking, wording cleanup, Could the, emoji

[bosrs1]

2 hours ago, DustDevil61 said:

 

 

If they're trying to escape the (worst of) the heat, the Athletics could always temporarily set up shop in Salt Lake with this backdrop while waiting for a new ballpark in Las Vegas to be built:

 

 

I know that some local sports radio talking heads (among them former Lions great Scott Mitchell ) that made a pitch for the Raiders to temporarily set up shop in Utah last year (as silly as the concept of the "Utah Raiders" sounds) did something similar with the A's once they announced their intention to explore relocation back in May. Oh well, a man can dream.

 

It's ultimately little more than an article to spur talk, given the logistics of pulling that off (chief among them is where the AAA Bees go), but it's always fun to think about. It's just crazy to me how quickly Las Vegas is going from 0 to possibly 3 teams in under a decade, previous gambling issues or not.

 

Anyways, the temporary Las Vegas Ballpark setup talk does spur another question if the A's do move to Vegas: What happens to the what, 2-, 3-year-old ballpark when an even newer big league park opens (as it inevitably will)? What happens to the AAA Aviators if the Athletics come to town--where do they go? Could there be the possibility of doing some kind of switcheroo, with the MLB team going to Las Vegas and the AAA team going to Oakland?

 

 

 

I don't see why they Aviators would have to leave town. If anything MLB is moving toward having their MLB and minor league teams in closer proximity. The A"s would just be ahead of the curve. They're not going to Oakland however. Oakland will never accept a sloppy seconds situation like that. 

[who do you think]

2.5 million regional population for soon-to-be four major league teams, in case anyone forgot.

 

I was gonna follow that up with a line about how Denver (3.5 million) struggles to simultaneously support the Avs, Nuggets, and Rockies, but I looked and they were actually all doing pretty well attendance-wise in the seasons leading up to COVID. So I guess they can make it work as long as the teams are good. I still say this is gonna end badly for somebody in Vegas in the not-so-distant future.

[Ridleylash]

11 minutes ago, who do you think said:

2.5 million regional population for soon-to-be four major league teams, in case anyone forgot.

 

I was gonna follow that up with a line about how Denver (3.5 million) struggles to simultaneously support the Avs, Nuggets, and Rockies, but I looked and they were actually all doing pretty well attendance-wise in the seasons leading up to COVID. So I guess they can make it work as long as the teams are good. I still say this is gonna end badly for somebody in Vegas in the not-so-distant future.

Most likely whoever gets in last, so probably the NBA. The Knights are practically locked up as the de-facto No.1 team in the Vegas market's hearts, and the Raiders aren't going anywhere so soon after building a big shiny new arena to play in.

 

It'd be down to the A's and some NBA team to determine which one ends up getting the shaft.

[who do you think]

9 minutes ago, Ridleylash said:

Most likely whoever gets in last, so probably the NBA. The Knights are practically locked up as the de-facto No.1 team in the Vegas market's hearts, and the Raiders aren't going anywhere so soon after building a big shiny new arena to play in.

 

It'd be down to the A's and some NBA team to determine which one ends up getting the shaft.

 

If/when the NBA expands to Vegas I would bet on another rent-a-superteam springing up there within five years of their launch date, making life more difficult for the Knights as they exit their honeymoon period, but still probably leaving the A's as the odd team out. Enjoy funding that baseball stadium that can't be used for anything else, taxpayers.

[DustDevil61]

1 hour ago, who do you think said:

2.5 million regional population for soon-to-be four major league teams, in case anyone forgot.

 

I was gonna follow that up with a line about how Denver (3.5 million) struggles to simultaneously support the Avs, Nuggets, and Rockies, but I looked and they were actually all doing pretty well attendance-wise in the seasons leading up to COVID. So I guess they can make it work as long as the teams are good. I still say this is gonna end badly for somebody in Vegas in the not-so-distant future.

Agreed. As the news that the Athletics were open to exploring relocation emerged in May, and with the links to the articles above pitching Salt Lake for swirling around in my mind, I thought that sending the Athletics to Salt Lake and splitting them and the Jazz in Utah from the Knights and Raiders in Las Vegas while cross-promoting all 4 between both cities would be more feasible  than giving a 3rd—and possibly 4th—team in a market that has just 2.5 million residents (which, IIRC, is roughly the same population along the Wasatch Front, if you count Provo and Ogden—correct me if I’m wrong.) Again, I know the businessmen making the decisions probably aren’t going to go with that, but it’s a fun little thought experiment to see if two relatively close cities could pull off.

 

Yes, Las Vegas is a tourist town, and that works for the first team there (the Knights) and the Raiders (who are an NFL team, really aren’t too far from their historical fanbases anyways, and are the Raiders), but I just don’t see it translating to all 4 big leagues.

[who do you think]

5 minutes ago, DustDevil61 said:

Agreed. As the news that the Athletics were open to exploring relocation emerged in May, and with the links to the articles above pitching Salt Lake for swirling around in my mind, I thought that sending the Athletics to Salt Lake and splitting them and the Jazz in Utah from the Knights and Raiders in Las Vegas while cross-promoting all 4 between both cities would be more feasible  than giving a 3rd—and possibly 4th—team in a market that has just 2.5 million residents (which, IIRC, is roughly the same population along the Wasatch Front, if you count Provo and Ogden—correct me if I’m wrong.) Again, I know the businessmen making the decisions probably aren’t going to go with that, but it’s a fun little thought experiment to see if two relatively close cities could pull off.

 

Yes, Las Vegas is a tourist town, and that works for the first team there (the Knights) and the Raiders (who are an NFL team, really aren’t too far from their historical fanbases anyways, and are the Raiders), but I just don’t see it translating to all 4 big leagues.

 

Yeah Salt Lake has 2.5 million in its CSA. More than sufficient for most other sports, but on the low end for baseball (they'd be ahead of KC, Pittsburgh and Milwaukee I think) and without any apparent special interest in the sport in the area. They wouldn't have much of a TV market either.

 

Like I said upthread, when Montreal (a graphic failure the first time around) currently looks like the best landing spot for an MLB team in trouble, that's not good, and when baseball has two teams in gots-to-go situations due to 15-20+ year stadium hunts that have gone nowhere, that's really not good. I'm standing by my bold prediction that two MLB franchises (probably these two) are getting axed before 2030, optics and MLBPA rage duly noted.

[OnWis97]

7 hours ago, DustDevil61 said:

Agreed. As the news that the Athletics were open to exploring relocation emerged in May, and with the links to the articles above pitching Salt Lake for swirling around in my mind, I thought that sending the Athletics to Salt Lake and splitting them and the Jazz in Utah from the Knights and Raiders in Las Vegas while cross-promoting all 4 between both cities would be more feasible  than giving a 3rd—and possibly 4th—team in a market that has just 2.5 million residents (which, IIRC, is roughly the same population along the Wasatch Front, if you count Provo and Ogden—correct me if I’m wrong.) Again, I know the businessmen making the decisions probably aren’t going to go with that, but it’s a fun little thought experiment to see if two relatively close cities could pull off.

 

Yes, Las Vegas is a tourist town, and that works for the first team there (the Knights) and the Raiders (who are an NFL team, really aren’t too far from their historical fanbases anyways, and are the Raiders), but I just don’t see it translating to all 4 big leagues.

Especially baseball.  June-August, it's going to be more uncomfortable in Vegas than just about anyone's home town.  I'm not sure going to see my MLB team in the summer works out quite as well as going to see an NFL* game in the fall or an NHL game in the winter.

 

*NFL does start amidst the heat, as evidenced by my Labor Day weekend Wisconsin/UNLV trip...not the best time to get away to Vegas. But you as point out, it's the Raiders and it's the NFL.  MLB is going to have to rely on the local population, at least for most of the season.

[Brian in Boston]

I can just see the Review-Journal banner headline officially announcing the relocation: Viva LA's Vegas!

 

[bosrs1]

11 hours ago, Ridleylash said:

Most likely whoever gets in last, so probably the NBA. The Knights are practically locked up as the de-facto No.1 team in the Vegas market's hearts, and the Raiders aren't going anywhere so soon after building a big shiny new arena to play in.

 

It'd be down to the A's and some NBA team to determine which one ends up getting the shaft.

 

Knowing history... it'll be the A's. But that'll be a problem for 20 years down the line IF the region gets an NBA team. 

[bosrs1]

1 hour ago, OnWis97 said:

Especially baseball.  June-August, it's going to be more uncomfortable in Vegas than just about anyone's home town.  I'm not sure going to see my MLB team in the summer works out quite as well as going to see an NFL* game in the fall or an NHL game in the winter.

 

*NFL does start amidst the heat, as evidenced by my Labor Day weekend Wisconsin/UNLV trip...not the best time to get away to Vegas. But you as point out, it's the Raiders and it's the NFL.  MLB is going to have to rely on the local population, at least for most of the season.

 

I mean all the Vegas teams play indoors and would play indoors. So the heat isn't really a consideration. 

[OnWis97]

1 hour ago, bosrs1 said:

 

I mean all the Vegas teams play indoors and would play indoors. So the heat isn't really a consideration. 

I don't agree. You go for more than the game.  The games themselves would be comfortable, but being outside for any reason is miserable in August.  Would I go to Vegas for the Thursday Wild game and make a long weekend? Yes.* For a July Twins series? No. 

 

*Probably not, but if I was more of a "Vegas guy."