Stadium/Arena Saga Omnibus

[IceCap]

47 minutes ago, Ridleylash said:

True, but the Raiders also have the benefit of mooching off the many LA tourists who bleed black and silver as well as football's general popularity across the US to fall back on; I don't see the Athletics having nearly the same panache in Vegas that the Knights and Raiders do, with how baseball has struggled to maintain relevance in the modern era of sports due to how slow-paced and long the game is.

 

Plus, I don't know if Vegas' taxpayers are necessarily in the mood for dealing with another sports team asking for public funding for a stadium after the city just coughed up 750 million just to build Allegiant for the Raiders. At least the NBA can just occupy T-Mobile as co-tenants with the Knights.

My point is that the NFL is actually the ideal sports tenant for Vegas. They're only around for 8 or 9 games a year, and only play once a week. Perfect for weekend trips to Vegas. The city doesn't have to support them over the course of a NHL or MLB season. 

 

For as hot as the Golden Knights' start was they're going to have trouble long term. Meanwhile the Raiders are set up to succeed in Vegas as long as possible. 

 

A NBA team would be like the Knights. A hot start that long term will have difficulties. Baseball would have it the worst. 

 

But the Raiders... long term? They'll be alright. 

[McCall]

3 hours ago, IceCap said:

My point is that the NFL is actually the ideal sports tenant for Vegas. They're only around for 8 or 9 games a year, and only play once a week. Perfect for weekend trips to Vegas. The city doesn't have to support them over the course of a NHL or MLB season. 

Plus being in an entertainment-heavy economic city like Vegas, the stadium can get used quite a bit for concerts and events when the Raiders (or UNLV) aren't playing.

[Chromatic]

Let's be real, the Raiders are more of a fashion brand than a football team at this point anyway.

[GDAWG]

Las Vegas is also getting an XFL team and their WNBA team, the Aces (also owned by Mark Davis) just won the WNBA Championship, so they do have a championship winning team, albeit in the WNBA.  

[FiddySicks]

4 hours ago, IceCap said:

My point is that the NFL is actually the ideal sports tenant for Vegas. They're only around for 8 or 9 games a year, and only play once a week. Perfect for weekend trips to Vegas. The city doesn't have to support them over the course of a NHL or MLB season. 

 

For as hot as the Golden Knights' start was they're going to have trouble long term. Meanwhile the Raiders are set up to succeed in Vegas as long as possible. 

 

A NBA team would be like the Knights. A hot start that long term will have difficulties. Baseball would have it the worst. 

 

But the Raiders... long term? They'll be alright. 

I’m of the opinion that the only reason the Knights have worked out at all is because of the artificially inflated start they had, and I think that’s going to become more obvious over the next decade. I mean I kinda understand why they were motivated to even do that, as it was a brand new market for any team, and you really do have to hedge your bets on that a bit, but it’s still some real bull:censored: and just goes to show how dysfunctional the NHL is as a whole. It’s got to be of the most OITGDNHL moves I’ve ever seen, and really does nothing to disprove the overall troubles that the league has in finding truly viable markets, especially in the southwest. 

[Ridleylash]

20 minutes ago, FiddySicks said:

I’m of the opinion that the only reason the Knights have worked out at all is because of the artificially inflated start they had, and I think that’s going to become more obvious over the next decade. I mean I kinda understand why they were motivated to even do that, as it was a brand new market for any team, and you really do have to hedge your bets on that a bit, but it’s still some real bull:censored: and just goes to show how dysfunctional the NHL is as a whole.

Is it really artificially-inflated if the only reason they were even as good as they were is that a bunch of teams handed them great players on silver platters for literally nothing through terrible asset management? Florida literally just gifted them both Reilly Smith and Jonathan Marchessault, Columbus gave them Karlsson, Anaheim gave up Theodore to protect guys like Eaves and Etem...

 

Like, just remove those three deals and they don't look anywhere near as good.

[FiddySicks]

I mean, look at the way they scaled the expansion draft back for Seattle. No matter if that’s stacking the deck or just poor management on the part of the other teams is almost irrelevant. Either way it ain’t a good look. 

[Chromatic]

3 hours ago, FiddySicks said:

I mean, look at the way they scaled the expansion draft back for Seattle. No matter if that’s stacking the deck or just poor management on the part of the other teams is almost irrelevant. Either way it ain’t a good look. 

Did they really scale it back? I think teams just got wise to how Vegas fleeced them and weren’t going to let it happen a second time.

[ManillaToad]

10 hours ago, GDAWG said:

their WNBA team, the Aces (also owned by Mark Davis) just won the WNBA Championship, so they do have a championship winning team, albeit in the WNBA.  

 

Might as well tell us how their lacrosse team is doing

 

9 hours ago, FiddySicks said:

really does nothing to disprove the overall troubles that the league has in finding truly viable markets, especially in the southwest. 

 

3/4 of their southwest markets are viable

[The_Admiral]

9 hours ago, FiddySicks said:

I mean, look at the way they scaled the expansion draft back for Seattle. No matter if that’s stacking the deck or just poor management on the part of the other teams is almost irrelevant. Either way it ain’t a good look. 

I think the expansion draft rules were the same both times through and the difference really was that the other teams didn't dummy themselves into making historically stupid trades and Seattle didn't get to fall ass over applecart into a Hall of Fame goalie who was essentially on waivers.

 

The Golden Knights were able to break the game by constructing a roster of what were essentially four second lines, which, in conjunction with short shifts, allowed them to catch opponents in mismatches at an insanely high rate -- the more often your line is better or less tired than the other line, the more you score, and that's the game. It's brilliant. Why didn't anyone think of it sooner? Probably because the NHL created the most restrictive salary cap system in America and no one could do it.

[DG_YouKnowWhatThatMeans]

16 hours ago, Red Comet said:

 

The Raiders were able to pull that off because they have a widespread and dedicated fanbase. Who the hell is going to go watch an A's game when they know they're going to Vegas?

 

 

This is how it is without knowing that they're going to Vegas. 

 

I'm old, but I remember when the Oakland A's were the coolest franchise in baseball, at a time when baseball was actually cool.

 

Ricky Henderson, Mark McGwire, Jose Canseco, Dennis Eckersley, and Dave Stewart...just such a cool group of dudes.

 

Was the late 80s/early 90s the true golden age of baseball? Or do I just have elder millennial narcissism?

[BBTV]

1 hour ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

 

I'm old, but I remember when the Oakland A's were the coolest franchise in baseball, at a time when baseball was actually cool.

 

Ricky Henderson, Mark McGwire, Jose Canseco, Dennis Eckersley, and Dave Stewart...just such a cool group of dudes.

 

Was the late 80s/early 90s the true golden age of baseball? Or do I just have elder millennial narcissism?

 

They were my favorite team when I was younger, and Canseco was my favorite player.  Will never forget him being the first 40/40 player, and marked out when I opened a pack of '86 Donruss and got his rookie card (which I think had a value of >$100 at one point.)

 

Ricky picking up the base and holding it over his head, Eckersley, (former Phillie) Dave Stewart, the Bash Bros, hell - even Walt Weiss was cool.

 

obviously this was all in a pre-internet world, so we had no idea what was really going on with any of these guys, but yeah - the A's were legit the coolest team in baseball from around '87-'92.  I was crushed when I woke up one morning and saw on the news that Gibson had beaten them in '88 (couldn't stay up to watch end of game), was thrilled in '89, then in shock when the Reds worked them in '90.

 

 

[The_Admiral]

Early '90s as the end of the golden age would track with CBS's disastrous coverage and the fallout from that, followed by the strike.

[DG_YouKnowWhatThatMeans]

27 minutes ago, BBTV said:

obviously this was all in a pre-internet world, so we had no idea what was really going on with any of these guys,

 

Imagine peak Dennis Rodman on Twitter. Or people sneaking videos of MJ in the casinos.

 

Those guys didn't have some of the travel perks, but getting to have a better semblance of an actual private life was probably better on the whole.

[Ferdinand Cesarano]

2 hours ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

I'm old, but I remember when the Oakland A's were the coolest franchise in baseball, at a time when baseball was actually cool.

 

Ricky Henderson, Mark McGwire, Jose Canseco, Dennis Eckersley, and Dave Stewart...just such a cool group of dudes.

And that's not even the first time the A's were the coolest team in baseball.

 

 

Those A's changed baseball aesthetics. When Reggie Jackson grew a mustache in 1972, he was the first player since the early 20th century to have a mustache. Charlie Finley's first reaction was to fine him; but, after Jackson's teammates began to grow mustaches in solidarity, Finley turned around and embraced it. He actually gave players bonuses for growing a mustache. (The only one who didn't collect was Bert Campaneris, who could not grow a mustache.) He also held promotional days, allowing mustachioed fans in for free.

 

Three or four years later, hundreds of players were sporting magnificent mustaches, including such iconic mustachioed players as Thurman Munson, Sparky Lyle, Mike Schmidt, Davey Lopes, Mike Marshall, Keith Hernandez, Al Hrabosky, Dock Ellis, and many, many more. And it's all thanks to The Swinging A's.

 

Oh, yeah — and they won three consecutive World Series, starting with the 1972 Series against the Reds, who, despite being one of the greatest teams ever, were the very opposite of cool.  The battle of "the hairs versus the squares" was the first World Series that I ever saw, and it profoundly influenced my sense of personal aesthetics (as attested by the excellent mustache that I have proudly worn for more than forty years).

 

This, the mid-1970s, was baseball's golden age.

[DG_YouKnowWhatThatMeans]

The As with Johnny Damon, Barry Zito and the Giambis (they were all there together, right?) were pretty cool too.

 

The As fans deserve better.

[ManillaToad]

I can definitely get on board with the idea that the LCS era of 1969-1993 was MLB's golden age. I mean c'mon, it started with the Miracle Mets and ended with Joe Carter's home run. It's too poetic to ignore.

[WestCoastBias]

18 hours ago, IceCap said:

I donno, the Raiders are doing alright. 

Allegiant had a lot of Broncos fans in Week 4. Everyone talks about this happening to the LA teams but it happens to the Raiders too.
 

If the A’s continue to be cheap asses that sell off the whole team every couple years then the billion dollar Vegas stadium will eventually be empty just like the Coliseum and on weekends it’ll be filled with opposing fans. The A’s don’t have an Oakland problem, they have an owner problem.

[IceCap]

47 minutes ago, WestCoastBias said:

Allegiant had a lot of Broncos fans in Week 4. Everyone talks about this happening to the LA teams but it happens to the Raiders too.

Vegas' status as a destination town for out of towners looking to cap off a weekend Vegas trip by watching their team play is part of why Vegas as a NFL market works. Vegas is an adult theme park, and the NFL- with a limited run time each year- is a perfect seasonal adult theme park attraction.

[Ridleylash]

Exactly; with the NFL, home games are limited enough that each becomes a big event. The NHL and NBA have more home games, but that's also because they have a longer schedule; and 41 home games in an 82-game season is much more valuable than 81 home games in a 162-game season.

 

Most teams in MLB are already having trouble selling out their home stadiums, because baseball's popularity is slipping. I don't see how moving the A's to Vegas does anything for the league overall except temporarily prop up attendance numbers in one specific market, especially one that just put up a :censored:load of taxpayer money for the Raiders in the first place.