NFL Concept Jerseys - 1995

[Gothamite]

Jacksonville has the cheapest seats in the league and still can't get 50,000 people in a 68,000-seat stadium.

That's because Jacksonville is not now, nor has it ever been, an NFL market.

[Brian in Boston]

What does Los Angeles know about trolley dodging or lakes?

At the height of the streetcar era in Southern California (circa 1911), Los Angeles, Orange, Riverside and San Bernardino Counties were connected by what was then the world's largest interurban electric passenger railway system. The likes of the Pacific Electric Railway Red Car line, the Yellow Cars, the Pasadena and Pacific Railway - they all traversed Greater Los Angeles on over 1,000 miles of track.

As for Greater Los Angeles lakes, there are Baldwin Lake, Bouton Lake, Caldwell Lake, Castaic Lake, Crystal Lake, Debs Lake, Echo Lake, Echo Park Lake, Elderberry Lake, Elizabeth Lake, Hansen Lake, Harbor Lake, Hidden Lake, Holiday Lake, Hughes Lake, Jackson Lake, Ken Malloy Harbor Park Lake, Lake Balboa, Lake Enchanto, Lake Lindero, Lake Palmdale, Lees Lake, Legg Lake, Lincoln Park Lake, Lower Van Norman Lake, MacArthur Park Lake, Malibu Lake, McGee Lake, Middle Lake, Monteria Lake, Munz Lakes, Pyramid Lake, Quail Lake, Redwing Lake, Reseda Park Lake, Santa Ynez Lake, Toluca Lake, Tweedy Lake, Una Lake, Upper Van Norman Lake and Westlake Lake.

[Gothamite]

Yeah, but most of those are "lakes" in the sense that the Los Angeles River is a "river."

How ironic that Los Angeles should have thrown away its streetcar system right around the time they got the Dodgers....

[BawlmerOreos]

Ice_Cap...no one is arguing that in the sense of law, team owners do own the brand assets of their clubs exactly like they legally own all the physical elements of the team. Right down to equipment.

BUT...names/logos/history are viewed much differently by fans than physical elements. FANS feel as though they own those things...not the owners. And smart owners realize that they can "sell" their products much better when that illusion is furthered.

So all that being said...it is terrible when anyone is asked to fell as though a team is theirs, then years later have to watch something that looks exact the same, but it's NOT yours.

No one in Baltimore wanted to get the Browns the way it happened...but after being snubbed in the expansion round, if you wanted a football team, you had no other choice. I've very glad the Browns are still the Browns. The fans deserve that history. No one in Baltimore wants to see Ray Rice break Jim Brown's "franchise records." Just like Nick Markakis has NO LINK to any St. Louis Browns.

You have to look at this differently than the pure legal sense. Like it or not...emotion is the main element here. And there's NOTHING wrong with that.

See, I try to drop the subject, but people keep trying to assert that I'm some inhuman monster for dissing "the fans."

Look, fans may think they own a team identity, but that doesn't make it so. Me being a Leafs fan and a member of "Leafs Nation" doesn't give any stake in the ownership of the name or identity of the team. I can't produce my own Maple Leafs merchandise without the permission of the rightful owners, MLSE. If I did they could rightfully sue me and my defence that the name and logo of the team "belongs to the fans" would have no standing in a court of law. So yeah, if a team wants to move, let them take their name with them. It belongs to them, if they want to continue using it they're completely within their right to do that. Now if the owner, of his own free will, decides to leave the name in the old location, ok, fine. He shouldn't be required to do that though.

Furthermore, two other points that the "name belongs to the fans" crowd always seem to ignore. First of all, the cities we're discussing, Cleveland and Baltimore, made off much better then most fans who lose teams. Can you not see how inane Baltimore fans sound when they complain about the Colts leaving when NHL fans in Winnipeg, Hartford, and Quebec City are much worse off?

Secondly, what I feel is the strongest argument, is the legacy issue, and I have yet to hear any counter argument to this one. Simply put the Cleveland Deal/let the city keep the name idea ignores the reality of the situation. The NFL pretending the current Browns are the same Browns doesn't make it so. The new Browns have no real tie to the historic franchise. That history, that legacy, belongs to the Baltimore Ravens. As BBTV said, the current Browns players play on the same team as players who played on a 1999 expansion team. The current Ravens players played on the same team as the players who played that first season in Baltimore who played on the same team as player who a year earlier played in Cleveland. No amount of the NFL's "official story" will bend reality enough to connect the current Browns to the historic Browns of 1946-1995. That's the primary reason why I don't like the city keeping the name, identity, and history of a departed team. It's dishonest. It's dishonest to claim that the team that just left, with the same players and coaches, is suddenly a new expansion team in a new city, and that in five years the old city will get an expansion team that can claim the historic lineage of the classic team. That's not the way that it happens, and anyone looking at the situation with clarity can see that.

Now I'm done with this team relocation business. Panther's right, it's taken up to much of this thread. I'll just agree to disagree with anyone who thinks otherwise. If anyone really feels the need to continue discussing this, start a new thread.

Now...back on point...as ravens fan, I'm glad the Bombers never happened. I wish we were blue (to link to the Colts) but those uniforms look like they belonged in NFL Europe. NOT blue-collar Bawlmer.

I think almost every city's claiming to be blue collar now.

The second the Winnipeg Maple Leafs take the ice, you'll change your tune.

[IceCap]

You know what? I had a long rant typed out explaining why my tune wouldn't change, but I decided against posting it. Rather, I'll just say that no, I wouldn't change my opinion, your example is ludicrous because it'll never happen anyway, and finally the "well WHAT IF YOUR TEAM MOVED huhuhu?!?!?!" argument is the laziest one to make in a discussion like this. It just allows you to dodge the points I brought up.

Not that I care past this point anyway. Refuse to argue the real points of discussion. I don't care. I'm done with this argument in this thread. If you feel the need to continue it, start a new one. If you don't feel the need for a new thread, stop it.

[ddub53]

Here is the Stallions uniform.

I've always wondered why any helmets seen for the Stallions have a black facemask. Of course none of them are official as the horse head used isn't from the actual logo sheet. Nothing else on the uniform or the franchise's seven logos had black in them. Is it possible that it was actually dark purple that appeared black. I vaguely remember a St. Louis TV station holding up a helmet during the final meeting in Chicago when they announced Jacksonville, but since that was in 1993, I can't remember what color it acutally was. Any help with the sources would be appreciated.

[powersurge]

Jacksonville has the cheapest seats in the league and still can't get 50,000 people in a 68,000-seat stadium.

That's because Jacksonville is not now, nor has it ever been, an NFL market.

How the hell they beat out the other three cities: St.Louis, Baltimore, and Memphis is beyond me. I find it hilarious that all of the other three major markets got NFL teams (Nashville in place of Memphis, but close enough), and all three EXCEPT for Jacksonville have been to at least one Super Bowl with TWO teams winning. Explain that. Seriously, history has proven that the selection of Jacksonville for a team was truly foolish. I give them about 3 or 4 more years before they relocate or are contracted.

Love their helmets though!

[Gothamite]

Simple - Tagliabue wanted another team in the Southeast. He pushed Jacksonville through the expansion process, even when the prospective owners couldn't get their act together and tried to drop out (warning signs early, there).

It's one reason why he won't make the Hall of Fame.

[powersurge]

Simple - Tagliabue wanted another team in the Southeast. He pushed Jacksonville through the expansion process, even when the prospective owners couldn't get their act together and tried to drop out (warning signs early, there).

It's one reason why he won't make the Hall of Fame.

Unfortunately he might. He basically rode the wave that Pete Rozelle created before him en route to making the NFL "America's NEW past time" I'm sure MLB had more than a hand in that by totally shooting themselves in the foot in the 90's & 00's with lockouts and steriods.

As for the Jags....I can literally remember watching the announcement of their winning bid on SportsCenter and saying to myself "No :censored:ing way! Who's palm did they grease to win that vote???"

Now we know. I'm sure the NFL will fix that screw up in a matter of time.

[IceCap]

If I remember correctly for most of the '95 expansion bidding Carolina and St. Louis were thought to be locks. Jacksonville swept in once the ownership group in St. Louis fell through. Really, the smart move would have been to go with Baltimore once St. Louis fell apart, but I guess they really wanted that "southern Green Bay."

[Gothamite]

I don't think he will be elected, actually.

We don't know what the voting totals are, but the fact that the NFL owners voted 32-0 to opt out of Tagliabue's labor agreement tells us something about how he's perceived within the sport itself. FWIW.

I don't know if he's ever advanced out of the first round of voting, also not a very good sign (and more on point).

[powersurge]

I don't think he will be elected, actually.

We don't know what the voting totals are, but the fact that the NFL owners voted 32-0 to opt out of Tagliabue's labor agreement tells us something about how he's perceived within the sport itself. FWIW.

I don't know if he's ever advanced out of the first round of voting, also not a very good sign (and more on point).

IDK either, but he wouldn't get my vote. I always perceived him as someone who rode the coat tails of one of the greatest commissioners in American Sports League history.

[raz]

If I remember correctly for most of the '95 expansion bidding Carolina and St. Louis were thought to be locks. Jacksonville swept in once the ownership group in St. Louis fell through. Really, the smart move would have been to go with Baltimore once St. Louis fell apart, but I guess they really wanted that "southern Green Bay."

Actually Jacksonville wasn't wanted either.

St. Louis fell through because another group of prospective owners threatened to sue if St. Louis got the team and they weren't picked as owners. Baltimore fell through because they had two competing ownership groups, and when the Maryland governor was brought in to broker a compromise, he ended up putting together a THIRD ownership group. And Memphis never had a chance (having dropped out once early in the process).

The NFL did want one "old" city and one "new" city, and it was a foregone conclusion that Charlotte was that new city. But the NFL owners really liked Wayne Weaver of Jacksonville. They even tried to persuade him to take over the St. Louis bid ... they were going to announce a franchise first and pick owners later. But Weaver wouldn't abandon the Jacksonville group. Finally, Jacksonville promised every visiting team $1 million in gate receipts for every game. That was much more than anybody else was offering. In the end, that money talked.

[BBTV]

So something like...

ON ERROR GoTo ERR_HANDLER

IF (we get our way and nobody sues = TRUE) THEN
     newTeam = "St. Louis"
ELSE IF (Baltimore can get their ownership situation figured out = TRUE) THEN
     newTeam = "Baltimore"
ELSE IF (all that fails and we need to fall back on option 3 and we can convince ourselves that it's not a bad idea = TRUE) THEN
     newTeam = "Memphis"
ELSE
     just pick any other city... seriously, any one except Jacksonville
END IF


ERR_HANDLER:
    IF everything else failed, there's errors all over the place, and we can't find ANY other city, THEN
         newTeam = "Jackonville"
         PLAY SOUND = PriceIsRight_FailHorn.wav
    END IF

END SUB

[jtthasportfreak]

Yeah, but most of those are "lakes" in the sense that the Los Angeles River is a "river."

How ironic that Los Angeles should have thrown away its streetcar system right around the time they got the Dodgers....

Then again the San Antonio River runs RIGHT through the heart of downtown Los Angeles...

[BaltimoreFan]

Jacksonville has the cheapest seats in the league and still can't get 50,000 people in a 68,000-seat stadium.

That's because Jacksonville is not now, nor has it ever been, an NFL market.

How the hell they beat out the other three cities: St.Louis, Baltimore, and Memphis is beyond me. I find it hilarious that all of the other three major markets got NFL teams (Nashville in place of Memphis, but close enough), and all three EXCEPT for Jacksonville have been to at least one Super Bowl with TWO teams winning. Explain that. Seriously, history has proven that the selection of Jacksonville for a team was truly foolish. I give them about 3 or 4 more years before they relocate or are contracted.

Love their helmets though!

I actually read that Art Modell played a big role in the selection of Carolina and Jacksonville. Modell liked Baltimore and St. Louis much better, but he also wanted to move the Browns. So he essentially argued hard and convinced most of the other owners that Carolina and Jacksonville were the best options. Then he has the better markets available when he was ready to move the Browns.

[rams80]

I know we're having fun cracking on Tags and all, but I'm not convinced that a St. Louis expansion team, encountering on field expansion team "success", would have been all that successful off the field.

[tBBP]

So something like...

ON ERROR GoTo ERR_HANDLER

IF (we get our way and nobody sues = TRUE) THEN
     newTeam = "St. Louis"
ELSE IF (Baltimore can get their ownership situation figured out = TRUE) THEN
     newTeam = "Baltimore"
ELSE IF (all that fails and we need to fall back on option 3 and we can convince ourselves that it's not a bad idea = TRUE) THEN
     newTeam = "Memphis"
ELSE
     just pick any other city... seriously, any one except Jacksonville
END IF


ERR_HANDLER:
    IF everything else failed, there's errors all over the place, and we can't find ANY other city, THEN
         newTeam = "Jackonville"
         PLAY SOUND = PriceIsRight_FailHorn.wav
    END IF

END SUB

Genius. POTD nominee?

[BlueSky]

You know what? I had a long rant typed out explaining why my tune wouldn't change, but I decided against posting it. Rather, I'll just say that no, I wouldn't change my opinion, your example is ludicrous because it'll never happen anyway, and finally the "well WHAT IF YOUR TEAM MOVED huhuhu?!?!?!" argument is the laziest one to make in a discussion like this. It just allows you to dodge the points I brought up.

Not that I care past this point anyway. Refuse to argue the real points of discussion. I don't care. I'm done with this argument in this thread. If you feel the need to continue it, start a new one. If you don't feel the need for a new thread, stop it.

That's not the problem. Your points are correct and tough to argue. But as I pointed out earlier, fans don't think about their teams rationally. I can concede the legalities; doesn't mean I have to like it.

Remember The Fugitive, when Tommy Lee Jones has Harrison Ford cornered in the dam? What do the characters say, and why? Ford's says, "I didn't kill my wife" because it's the most important thing in the world to him, and he believes it should be important to the marshal too. But Jones' response is, "I don't care." His job isn't to sort the grays - the ins and outs of the case - to him it's black and white: capture the guy on the run. Well, fans are Harrison Ford and you're Tommy Lee Jones. So to speak.

[IceCap]

Maybe I'm just to pragmatic. I donno. Agree to disagree then?