Football and CTE

[Gold Pinstripes]

2 hours ago, Gothamite said:

 

QFFT.  

 

Im a Packers shareholder. I published a Packers zine in the 1990s. I've run a Packers-themed website and blog for going on twenty years. I am incredibly invested in this sport. 

 

My outrage and insistence that

football must change doesn't come from a place of hating the sport. Quite the opposite - if I didn't care I'd have just walked away.  

Football can't really change too much, or else the essence of the game is lost. The NCAA targeting rule is misguided as well, there's too much confusion. And for anyone suggesting the life lessens of football can be found in other sports, who cares? Why should someone with a natural talent to excel in football play another sport unless they want to? I can personally guarantee the popularity of the sport will decline if the physicality is reduced. Nobody wants to see 75% football, and if the NFL goes in that direction, a rival league will emerge very quickly.

[Gothamite]

That's certainly what the NFL thinks, hence their panic.  But if they don't evolve the game, it will die.   Tough choice, except it really isn't a choice. 

[dfwabel]

4 hours ago, Gold Pinstripes said:

Football can't really change too much, or else the essence of the game is lost. The NCAA targeting rule is misguided as well, there's too much confusion. And for anyone suggesting the life lessens of football can be found in other sports, who cares? Why should someone with a natural talent to excel in football play another sport unless they want to? I can personally guarantee the popularity of the sport will decline if the physicality is reduced. Nobody wants to see 75% football, and if the NFL goes in that direction, a rival league will emerge very quickly.

 

Please, let us not digress to the point in which there is a thought a rival to the NFL.  The current list of professional leagues currently in the pipeline which claim they'll start between 2015 and today can be counted on two hands: A11FL*, "new" USFL*, NAFL*, MLFB, FXFL, SLAF.  Each never get off the ground as the capital isn't there and neither the monies to cover risk due to concussions/CTE litigation in addition to no demand to see/broadcast those much lesser athletes than those in the NFL play $hitty football and if they do watch, they aren't paying the current NFL prices. 

 

As I replied to you two weeks ago, we basically have at least one HS kid die per week due to subdural hematoma aka bleeding in the brain.  I should probably re-title the thread to mention brain injuries as a whole, even though CTE was the focus of the original story I presented. 

 

*-Been discussed on this board in either "Sports Logos", "Sports In General" or both.

[Gold Pinstripes]

On 9/29/2017 at 2:49 PM, dfwabel said:

 

Please, let us not digress to the point in which there is a thought a rival to the NFL.  The current list of professional leagues currently in the pipeline which claim they'll start between 2015 and today can be counted on two hands: A11FL*, "new" USFL*, NAFL*, MLFB, FXFL, SLAF.  Each never get off the ground as the capital isn't there and neither the monies to cover risk due to concussions/CTE litigation in addition to no demand to see/broadcast those much lesser athletes than those in the NFL play $hitty football and if they do watch, they aren't paying the current NFL prices. 

 

As I replied to you two weeks ago, we basically have at least one HS kid die per week due to subdural hematoma aka bleeding in the brain.  I should probably re-title the thread to mention brain injuries as a whole, even though CTE was the focus of the original story I presented. 

 

*-Been discussed on this board in either "Sports Logos", "Sports In General" or both.

You'll have to document that "one HS kid per week" business when talking about football. Soccer has plenty of concussions, but the media seems reluctant to write stories about that. I have no doubt you could find old soccer players in Europe with memory issues. NFL football isn't NFL football without the big time hitting, and people will stay away in droves if the violence becomes like the Pro Bowl. We can no more remove concussions from football any more than making the Indy 500 an 60mph race. Technology will help the sport thrive and prosper, I have no doubt about it.  

 

 

[rams80]

3 hours ago, Gold Pinstripes said:

You'll have to document that "one HS kid per week" business when talking about football. Soccer has plenty of concussions, but the media seems reluctant to write stories about that. I have no doubt you could find old soccer players in Europe with memory issues. NFL football isn't NFL football without the big time hitting, and people will stay away in droves if the violence becomes like the Pro Bowl. We can no more remove concussions from football any more than making the Indy 500 an 60mph race. Technology will help the sport thrive and prosper, I have no doubt about it.  

 

 

 

The changes in equipment since the 1950s and 1960s are part of the problem, not a path to a solution.  The players think the added protection can be weaponized, and it is actually hurting them.

[dfwabel]

On 10/1/2017 at 12:33 PM, Gold Pinstripes said:

You'll have to document that "one HS kid per week" business when talking about football. Soccer has plenty of concussions, but the media seems reluctant to write stories about that. I have no doubt you could find old soccer players in Europe with memory issues. NFL football isn't NFL football without the big time hitting, and people will stay away in droves if the violence becomes like the Pro Bowl. We can no more remove concussions from football any more than making the Indy 500 an 60mph race. Technology will help the sport thrive and prosper, I have no doubt about it.  

 

 

Deaths and catastrophic injuries, both directly and indirectly caused by football (and other prep sports) have been documented by the NCCSIR ( National Center for Catastrophic Sport Injury Research).   The Center uses media reports as well as self-reporting , so your "media seems reluctant" comment

 

Hera are their definitions:

Quote

Catastrophic injuries are defined as:  fatalities, permanent disability injuries, serious injuries (fractured neck or serious head injury) even though the athlete has a full recovery, temporary or transient paralysis (athlete has no movement for a short time, but has a complete recovery), heat stroke due to exercise, or sudden cardiac arrest or sudden cardiac or severe cardiac disruption.

Catastrophic injuries are classified as traumatic (direct) or exertional/systemic (indirect). Traumatic or direct injuries are those which resulted directly from participation in the fundamental skills of the sport. Exertional/systemic or indirect injuries are caused by systemic failure (usually cardiac or respiratory) as a result of exertion while participating in an activity or by a complication which was secondary to a non-fatal injury.

 

[dfwabel]

Blah, blah, blah, a Hall of Famer talks about nothing, right?

 

Quote

WASHINGTON — Parents should be informed before they sign up their kids to play football that the sport can cause long-term neurological damage, even to players who don’t have obvious concussion symptoms, NFL Hall of Famer Harry Carson told a congressional panel on Friday.

Carson, other former players, and brain-injury researchers spoke at a forum organized by House Democrats who are exploring what, if anything, Congress can do to make the nation’s most popular spectator sport safer.

The former linebacker, who made nine Pro Bowls and won a Super Bowl in his 13 years with the New York Giants, now devotes much of his time to raising awareness of head trauma and said he will not allow his 8-year-old grandson to play football.

 

 

http://www.pressherald.com/2017/10/13/hall-of-famer-warns-parents-of-footballs-risk/

[smzimbabwe]

My brother played high school football, and also was in track&field. Guess which one he had the catastrophic injury in that cost him a scholarship? Hint- it wasn't football.

[Cosmic]

1 hour ago, smzimbabwe said:

My brother played high school football, and also was in track&field. Guess which one he had the catastrophic injury in that cost him a scholarship? Hint- it wasn't football.

Yeah, but if he can't remember his kids' names in ten years, it probably wasn't track & field.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

1 hour ago, smzimbabwe said:

My brother played high school football, and also was in track&field. Guess which one he had the catastrophic injury in that cost him a scholarship? Hint- it wasn't football.

 

I know a guy who hit a deer in his car, but he broke his arm playing soccer. Really makes you think.

[dfwabel]

On the soccer front...

 

http://www.goal.com/en/news/worlds-leading-concussion-expert-warns-football-must-change/17boliqwam6ls1rou69ikj5iev

[Gothamite]

He’s not wrong. 

 

In this country, the USSF has already started overhauling the sport at the youth level.  Let’s hope the FA is more like them and less like the NFL. 

[Sport]

On 10/14/2017 at 10:57 PM, smzimbabwe said:

My brother played high school football, and also was in track&field. Guess which one he had the catastrophic injury in that cost him a scholarship? Hint- it wasn't football.

 

I played high school football and high school hockey and I got a concussion and broken collarbone playing hockey, but never got injured while playing football, therefore football is safer!

[sc49erfan15]

On 10/14/2017 at 10:57 PM, smzimbabwe said:

My brother played high school football, and also was in track&field. Guess which one he had the catastrophic injury in that cost him a scholarship? Hint- it wasn't football.

 

[OnWis97]

On 10/14/2017 at 9:57 PM, smzimbabwe said:

My brother played high school football, and also was in track&field. Guess which one he had the catastrophic injury in that cost him a scholarship? Hint- it wasn't football.

OK, people are all over the snark on this one (since the door is so wide open).  First, it's anecdotal evidence. 

 

But the point I think that this misses is that we are not trying to keep people from getting "hurt."  You can tear an achilles jogging or playing basketball.  You can sprain an ankle by landing on the base funny running out an infield grounder.  We all know this and we all know that you can't just put yourself in bubble wrap.  Your brother I assume had a musculoskeletal injury.  It's an unfortunate possibility in essentially any sport.

 

The CTE issue is different than simple "injuries" we are all used to.  It provides long-term loss of quality-of-life and potentially even the ability to function.  Many think it hastens dementia. So the differences are 1) the long-term quality-of-life impacts and 2) the unknown factor.  We're just scratching the surface in terms of our understanding of what's going on here.

 

For the most part, we've always been aware of the potential "traditional" injuries and likelihood of long-term impact.  After all, the NFL can't hide things like ACL tears or broken legs.  While athletes try to tough-out sprains and other pains, some injuries just don't allow that.  Sometimes you just can't play.  And when athletes do tough it out, I think they have a decent sense of the long-term risk (sometimes great, sometimes negligible).  It's different with the head...nobody else can see it.  Only you know what's going on in your own head.  It's also different because the effects are not likely to show themselves for a long time.  If football's going to give your brother CTE, nobody's going to probably even recognize that until well into adulthood.  CTE was never going to cost him a scholarship.  Who knows, maybe that track injury was the best thing that ever happened to him, maybe four more years of football would have ruined his 50s and 60s.  But whatever did happen is apples and oranges with what we're talking about here.

[MJWalker45]

On 9/29/2017 at 9:53 AM, Gold Pinstripes said:

Football can't really change too much, or else the essence of the game is lost. The NCAA targeting rule is misguided as well, there's too much confusion. And for anyone suggesting the life lessens of football can be found in other sports, who cares? Why should someone with a natural talent to excel in football play another sport unless they want to? I can personally guarantee the popularity of the sport will decline if the physicality is reduced. Nobody wants to see 75% football, and if the NFL goes in that direction, a rival league will emerge very quickly.

Look at soccer as an example. It used to be you could only dress 11 players. If one got hurt you played a man down. After a while they allowed subs because making a guy with a broken leg run around on it for upwards of 90 minutes made no sense and neither did punishing his team. Substitutions allowed offenses to change and be built around each team's strength. Disallowing the goalie to pick up a back pass with his hand made goalies learn to use their feet. Change has to happen at all levels of football to make it safer. I'm not familiar with USA Football's Heads up initiative but reinforcing proper tackling is a key component in making the sport safer. The NFL has toned down their use of videos like the NFL's Greatest Hits on NFL Network because they see that those trying to emulate some of those hits aren't at the level necessary to do it safely. One thing that the NFL should probably do but most likely wouldn't is allow more contact in practice. My reasoning for this being that if you consistently practice properly wrapping up and taking the player down in practice it will be instinct on gameday. Maybe using a motorized tackling dummy that can take a hit will help here. 

[Gold Pinstripes]

15 minutes ago, OnWis97 said:

OK, people are all over the snark on this one (since the door is so wide open).  First, it's anecdotal evidence. 

 

But the point I think that this misses is that we are not trying to keep people from getting "hurt."  You can tear an achilles jogging or playing basketball.  You can sprain an ankle by landing on the base funny running out an infield grounder.  We all know this and we all know that you can't just put yourself in bubble wrap.  Your brother I assume had a musculoskeletal injury.  It's an unfortunate possibility in essentially any sport.

 

The CTE issue is different than simple "injuries" we are all used to.  It provides long-term loss of quality-of-life and potentially even the ability to function.  Many think it hastens dementia. So the differences are 1) the long-term quality-of-life impacts and 2) the unknown factor.  We're just scratching the surface in terms of our understanding of what's going on here.

 

For the most part, we've always been aware of the potential "traditional" injuries and likelihood of long-term impact.  After all, the NFL can't hide things like ACL tears or broken legs.  While athletes try to tough-out sprains and other pains, some injuries just don't allow that.  Sometimes you just can't play.  And when athletes do tough it out, I think they have a decent sense of the long-term risk (sometimes great, sometimes negligible).  It's different with the head...nobody else can see it.  Only you know what's going on in your own head.  It's also different because the effects are not likely to show themselves for a long time.  If football's going to give your brother CTE, nobody's going to probably even recognize that until well into adulthood.  CTE was never going to cost him a scholarship.  Who knows, maybe that track injury was the best thing that ever happened to him, maybe four more years of football would have ruined his 50s and 60s.  But whatever did happen is apples and oranges with what we're talking about here.

 

And one of the many things we don't know is what level of CTE causes real damage, or why players with numerous concussions are performing well in their later years. We also can't say football automatically damages former players in their 50s and 60s. Since we can't do much more on changing the rules, the only solution is to rely on technology, medicine, and better game management. The sport has too many positives to just say, "play another sport."  Putting aside the NFL, college football has helped so many former high school players succeed in life, we can't make generalizations about CTE.

 

We have to acknowledge there is no "safe" form of football, and respect the voluntary decision of young people who want to play. Technology will someday be able to tell college players if they are going in the wrong direction in terms of future brain health. And players who wish to quit the sport will be replaced by others. The media is rushing to judgement on this issue, something they've done before in other issues.  

[OnWis97]

14 minutes ago, MJWalker45 said:

Look at soccer as an example. It used to be you could only dress 11 players. If one got hurt you played a man down. After a while they allowed subs because making a guy with a broken leg run around on it for upwards of 90 minutes made no sense and neither did punishing his team. Substitutions allowed offenses to change and be built around each team's strength. Disallowing the goalie to pick up a back pass with his hand made goalies learn to use their feet. Change has to happen at all levels of football to make it safer. I'm not familiar with USA Football's Heads up initiative but reinforcing proper tackling is a key component in making the sport safer. The NFL has toned down their use of videos like the NFL's Greatest Hits on NFL Network because they see that those trying to emulate some of those hits aren't at the level necessary to do it safely. One thing that the NFL should probably do but most likely wouldn't is allow more contact in practice. My reasoning for this being that if you consistently practice properly wrapping up and taking the player down in practice it will be instinct on gameday. Maybe using a motorized tackling dummy that can take a hit will help here. 

I think this is related to something that we still don't know enough about.  Is the problem with CTE derivative of what happens in the game or is it the culmination of all the time one's head spends rattling around that helmet all week?

 

I tend to think it's more the latter...more the accumulation of sub-concussive hits and that the safest thing might be to totally stop contact in practice so the only contact players are ever subject to is in games...that would probably hinder how "textbook" the hits are (and cause other issues with quality of play).  And the in-game hits, on average, would be a bit more dangerous.  However, I think the "good hits" are bigger contributors to the problem than we want to believe.  And the "quality" of hits may not be as impactful as the "quanitity."  Of course this is just my gut and we can't rely on that...we have a long way to go to truly understand.  

[rams80]

17 minutes ago, Gold Pinstripes said:

 

And one of the many things we don't know is what level of CTE causes real damage, or why players with numerous concussions are performing well in their later years. We also can't say football automatically damages former players in their 50s and 60s. Since we can't do much more on changing the rules, the only solution is to rely on technology, medicine, and better game management. The sport has too many positives to just say, "play another sport."  Putting aside the NFL, college football has helped so many former high school players succeed in life, we can't make generalizations about CTE.

 

We also still stigmatize the hell out of mental illness in all of its various forms, which, you know, is one of the symptoms of brain damage from CTE, etc.  Maybe some people are better at hiding problems than others because of that stigma.

 

Also, you can build character in other sports too, and some of them might not use you up and toss you aside like modern division I college football.

 

17 minutes ago, Gold Pinstripes said:

 

We have to acknowledge there is no "safe" form of football, and respect the voluntary decision of young people who want to play. Technology will someday be able to tell college players if they are going in the wrong direction in terms of future brain health. And players who wish to quit the sport will be replaced by others. The media is rushing to judgement on this issue, something they've done before in other issues.  

 

1.  Voluntary is fine, but it needs to be informed.

2.  LOL you think players whose scholarships are contingent on them, you know, playing football will stop playing football if told their brain is being jeopardized.  Yeah, that's not happening.

3.  I'm less convinced there will be replacement players than you are as time goes on.  Maybe in places that take a very cavalier attitude in personal safety or believe that those coal mines are totally going to get thousands of good paying union jobs again, but the trend line in youth participation in football in the last decade would be concerning if you want football to continue as is.

4.  I dunno, players who were stars in the league when I started watching 20 years ago have offed themselves at this point and the brain examinations were very disturbing.  I don't think there's been a rush to judgment here.

[JayMac]

20 hours ago, Gothamite said:

He’s not wrong. 

 

In this country, the USSF has already started overhauling the sport at the youth level.  Let’s hope the FA is more like them and less like the NFL. 

Just out of curiosity, what have they changed?