Indians' Identity

[hjwii]

I will preface this by saying I am a huge Cleveland Indians fan and love Chief Wahoo. And, I am biased towards their jerseys over the past 20 (give or take) years, because I really like them. That said...

Many people on the board have commented/complained/argued over the Cleveland Indians' uniforms because the use a script wordmark at home, yet a block wordmark on the road and on the "retro" cream jersey. They say it muddles their identity. That it is not cohesive. Either go all script or go all block.

But why does no one say the same about the Mets, or the Giants, or the Twins, or the Padres (oh, wait, no one likes the Padres unis...)?

Oh, and while we're on it, why do the Indians need to change their colors? Have the Twins change theirs if we're worried about too much red/white/blue... but that was discussed in another thread...

Am I blinded by my devotion to the Tribe?

[kevinmets]

Part of the distaste for the Indians identity is that they make so many needless tweaks every year or two. Piping color/placement, outline changes, addition & removal of silver, etc.

Part of it is there's no history there of using mismatched home & road scripts. The Mets have been doing it since their inception, which is why people seem to like it (I personally would like to see a cursive "New York" but I think I'm in the minority).

And of course part of it is the growing PC movement. Like it or not, naming your team after an ethnic group, and having a mascot that may or may not be viewed as a stereotype, is not okay in the 2010s.

The red-and-blue thing is a gripe of this board (myself included), but I think the majority of casual fans don't mind. I always make the Twins purple and yellow in my concepts, but they're never going to actually do that. Red-and-blue looks nice. It's traditional and never going to look outdated.

Also, this should probably be merged with the other Indians thread.

[texfischer]

I like Chief Wahoo, and I don't see how people see it as "offensive". You'd think that native Americans would be honored to have so many pro teams named after them. But I do think that an update to him would be nice. I really like the Indians uniforms, especially the alts, maybe they do tweak a little often. I don't think that you're blinded by your devotion, I like them and I'm a Pirates fan. I dont get the hate for their branding.

[IceCap]

I like Chief Wahoo, and I don't see how people see it as "offensive". You'd think that native Americans would be honored to have so many pro teams named after them.

The name "Indians" isn't the problem. "Indian" isn't a derogatory term. It's incorrect, but not derogatory. When Columbus called the native peoples of the Americas "indians" he wasn't trying to be offensive. He thought he was in India. So the name's not an issue.

The logo, on the other hand, is a problem, and it is offensive. No one would mind the Indians' identity if they used a respectful depiction of a Native American, or even if they just added some feathers to a block C. The Chiefs and Blackhawks, after all, have shown that if you treat native symbolism with respect then there's no issue with using it as the basis of your team's identity.

Chief Wahoo, however, is not a respectable depiction of a Native American. It's an exaggerated, racist cartoon caricature in the style of Jim Crow or the Eternal Jew. It has no place in the 21st century.

[WSU151]

I like Chief Wahoo, and I don't see how people see it as "offensive".

You don't think a red-skinned face with a big-ass goofy smile is offensive?

I've always been a supporter of Wahoo over anything that's just completely boring. Wahoo isn't great by any means, but he's better than a cursive I or a block C, IMO. If they could make a decent logo that incorporates a Native American in a respectful fashion, I'd be all for it.

[vikmurphy]

The Indians are nearly as racist as the Redskins. I don't see how a team representing our nations capitol could have such a name

[CrazyAnna]

Well this thread took it's typical dump. Thank you to all of you that just had to start up the stupid Cheif Wahoo debate once again. Please give it a rest!

As for the real topic, their identitiy = uniforms, is there any real reason why the Indians opted to go with a script home and blue jerseys and then do the complete opposite and have block script for their road grey and cream jerseys? I'm just curious if anyone in the know has ever heard their reasoning for it.

[Magnum]

I didn't think the script on the home uni's and block on the road's was that big of a deal. That's how they had it during their last "glory days".

[piratesfan16]

Well this thread took it's typical dump. Thank you to all of you that just had to start up the stupid Cheif Wahoo debate once again. Please give it a rest!

As for the real topic, their identitiy = uniforms, is there any real reason why the Indians opted to go with a script home and blue jerseys and then do the complete opposite and have block script for their road grey and cream jerseys? I'm just curious if anyone in the know has ever heard their reasoning for it.

I feel ya man. Anyways, I complain about the Mets, Twins, and Giants having muddled identities too. It's too too big of a problem for the Twins, but the Mets could really benefit by using the 80's road script on their unis.

[CC97]

Well this thread took it's typical dump. Thank you to all of you that just had to start up the stupid Cheif Wahoo debate once again. Please give it a rest!

Living up to your username

[CrazyAnna]

Well this thread took it's typical dump. Thank you to all of you that just had to start up the stupid Cheif Wahoo debate once again. Please give it a rest!

As for the real topic, their identitiy = uniforms, is there any real reason why the Indians opted to go with a script home and blue jerseys and then do the complete opposite and have block script for their road grey and cream jerseys? I'm just curious if anyone in the know has ever heard their reasoning for it.

I feel ya man. Anyways, I complain about the Mets, Twins, and Giants having muddled identities too. It's too too big of a problem for the Twins, but the Mets could really benefit by using the 80's road script on their unis.

Just seems strange to go with multiple scripts. I suppose it isn't a big deal overall, just strange. BTW, it's ma'am, not man.

[ESTONES6]

Personally, I love when a team has a script wordmark and a block wordmark. I'm a traditionalist a "block style" font was a staple of early baseball uniforms (by block style, I mean separate letters, not connected in a cursive sort of pattern).

I think in late 40's or early 50's teams started putting a script style wordmark on jerseys, during the Golden Age. I almost think its a necessity for a team to have a script and block workmark because of how limited baseball uniforms are, stylistically. Meaning, you have pipping around the neck, you have pipping around the end of the sleeve or you have pipping down the collar and offset from the sleeve. You either have 1 stripe, 2 stripes or 3 stripes. Its not like basketball or football where you have side panels, and patterns in the numbers, sublimated design, etc. Baseball has the most traditional/classic style uniforms and I think having both script and block style wordmarks goes a long way for a teams identity and creating some uniqueness to their look.

[Mac the Knife]

Personally I'd like to see them to a total overhaul - different color scheme (and now that I think about it, "Indians" would work really well using Cleveland Browns colors... would definitely give it a more authentic Native American feel). Ditch Wahoo. Ditch the uniform script and the piping, both never to return.

[tBBP]

Watch it, Mac...the last time someone mentioned a color change up in here, it touched off nerves all along Lake Erie.

[Bmac]

I think the most logical move at this point is to introduce a navy cap with a red bill and the block C logo as the home cap. Perhaps in a year or two. Chief Wahoo most likely remains as a sleeve patch for years.

[Fox]

If the only difference between the two were the script style (script vs. block) I would not have a problem. But in this case, they use different cap logos and a different shade of navy with the two styles. Thus, depending on the day of the week, they look like a different team. If they standardized the wahoo or block C, and used the script at home and block on the road, I don't think many people would have a problem with that. They just have a muddled identity. Another thing that seems to bother me but nobody else is that they unveiled what is (essentially) a new navy blue road alt (only for the road) and put Indians across the front. If they're planning on also wearing it at home, like they did this year, I understand that, but honestly if it's only a road alt, why use the team name?

As for the Mets, I would prefer to see them use the 80's road script on the road BUT- I think people are ok with it because it is part of their history and a script with two words like New York doesn't look great as a script, in the eyes on many people. (Which I don't always agree with)

You brought up a good point with the Twins. I personally with they dropped the regular home script and use the script that's on the current throwback alt as the home script.

You were pretty much right on when you said that nobody likes the padres uniforms.

As for the Giants, they don't have a script as either of their wordmarks, they are both block. However, if you are trying to point out that the two block fonts aren't the same, at least it is for a reason. A "San Francisco" block font in the same font used on the home wordmark would not fit on a jersey. Basically, when it comes to sports aesthetics, it is ok for things to be non-standardized if it is for a reason. (Giants fonts, yankees NY.) But people don't see the tribe as a case like this.

[hailstateunis]

I just don't like the fact that the Indians are the second "Native American" MLB team.

[Tomahawk10]

There's just way too big a difference between the two. Like Fox said, it the only difference was script at home, block on the road, it'd be fine but the unis just look so different that aside from the Wahoo patch on the sleeve, there's no way to know they're for the same team. It's not their identity, it's their identitIES.

[andrewharrington]

I just don't like the fact that the Indians are the second "Native American" MLB team.

Who's the first?

[Glover]

I just don't like the fact that the Indians are the second "Native American" MLB team.

Who's the first?

The Braves.