NFL Merry-Go-Round: Relocation Roundelay

[rams80]

Also, I think you're making way too much out of the weather. Is St. Louis the only market that gets hot or the only market that gets cold? No, you just think we have crappy fans who won't show up due to the weather. Whatever. Make it an experience worth going to, and I assure you they will.

St. Louis may be the only market that gets hot in the way that it does and cold in the way that it does, yes. It's the worst of both worlds because of where it is climatically.

People's major complaints with the Dome:

1. Dark

2. Bad sight lines

3. Bad sound system/acoustics

4. Tight walking spaces

5. No ideal place for tailgating

6. A lack of high-end revenue streams (that'd be an owner complaint)

7. A crappy football team

#1 and #5 are clearly addressed, #7 is out of their hands, and I think it's reasonably fair to assume a new building will address the others. It's certainly unfair to assume they wouldn't address these basic things.

I'm really not entirely sure 6 is addressed solely by "a new building." And if they're barebonesing the stadium I would make zero assumptions that other amenities would be present.

[Gothamite]

This stadium looks perfectly fine in the renderings.

I see what you're saying about the buildings - is that something they'd need state approval for? And how exactly did St. Louis let all this prime waterfront land, with interesting old buildings, decay into a wasteland? That's absurd. Mileaukee started revitalizing its riverfront areas two decades ago.

It would be very cool to integrate the stadium facade into that style. Well, this is a very preliminary plan, so maybe it'll end up that way.

[CubsFanBudMan]

Is it bad my first thought when I saw the stadium was "Soldier Field without being restrained by historic columns"?

Didn't look at pictures to back that theory up. Just my first impression.

The 64,000 seating capacity might have led me there as well. Much has been made of Chicago's shortsightedness. Looks like Indianapolis gets to keep the Midwest sports crown.

Don't get me wrong, it looks cool in a great setting. (And Kroenke doesn't even have a rendering for Inglewood yet, so what's really to compare?) But it feels like they undershot it a bit. Or they right-sized it at a time they should be embellishing a bit.

EDIT: Just saw Gothamite snuck in. As baseball or Indy as it might be, using that historic building they are keeping as the stadium inspiration as he suggests might have impressed me more.

[Gothamite]

Kroenke has a rendering - we saw one when the plan was reported.

[CubsFanBudMan]

Kroenke has a rendering - we saw one when the plan was reported.

I only saw a wide angle of the whole complex... so basically a stadium roof, or a Super Bowl logo silhouette at best. Were there more?

EDIT: This one.

[STL FANATIC]

I see what you're saying about the buildings - is that something they'd need state approval for? And how exactly did St. Louis let all this prime waterfront land, with interesting old buildings, decay into a wasteland? That's absurd. Mileaukee started revitalizing its riverfront areas two decades ago.

To put it VERY simply, bad leadership that supports highways, sprawl, and silver bullet re-development (which has to be a fear here) vs. smart urban strategies. Slowly changing. Slowly.

But that area specifically... just look to the west of the parcel and see the massive raised lanes of Interstate 70. (Actually, I think they re-classified it as 44 now since the new bridge just re-routed 70. But it's massive interstate regardless.) If the political leaders were forward-thinking, they'd be working on tearing down that interstate and turning it into a boulevard. EDIT: Actually, the elevated lanes are near the Dome. Once you get to this far north, it looks like they're depressed again. Doesn't really change the main point.

Instead the leaders won't comment on a citizen-led drive to do so and move forward with building a tiny greenspace lid over the part of the interstate just south that is depressed (rather than raised but still cuts off the riverfront every bit as much).

Heck, the magnificent Arch itself was a silver bullet plan that tore down a massive district of beautiful industrial buildings. I wouldn't give back the arch, but one could surely debated whether it was the right decision. St. Louis has an interesting and somewhat depressing history of making suburban minded decisions that tore apart the urban core. At the same time, St. Louis is also a leader these days in restoring historic buildings. So it's something of a mixed bag.

Guess I didn't really keep it that simple. But trust me, I could "talk your ear off" about all this if either of us wanted that.

[STL FANATIC]

It would be very cool to integrate the stadium facade into that style. Well, this is a very preliminary plan, so maybe it'll end up that way.

This is a really good point if they can get the plan to move forward. Likely the architecture was the least of their concerns. And they probably haven't had a chance to get a ton of feedback and revise. Also consider that right now they're trying to get the NFL fully on board, and part of that means parking for tailgating. Maybe if the plan moves along, you see them sneak some buildings back into the plan and lose a few parking spots.

I figure there's room for some change for sure if this gets to that stage.

[TheOldRoman]

I'm really not entirely sure 6 is addressed solely by "a new building." And if they're barebonesing the stadium I would make zero assumptions that other amenities would be present.

Particularly if they are using this proposal as a means for luring a new team, they'll need to make the amenities top notch. If their proposal includes half-assing it, the NFL isn't going to give them the time of day and won't do anything to help them get another team.

[STL FANATIC]

6. A lack of high-end revenue streams (that'd be an owner complaint)

I'm really not entirely sure 6 is addressed solely by "a new building." And if they're barebonesing the stadium I would make zero assumptions that other amenities would be present.

I guess you can't assume that, but I think it's fair to think it would be. I think it's even fairer to think it would be because the numbers say it will be.

According to StadiumsOfProFootball.com, the Edward Jones Dome has 6,300 club seats and 125 luxury suites. The new proposal calls for 7,500 club seats, 480 loge box seats (I don't know what if any comparable section there is in the EJD), and 2,000 suites.

[The_Admiral]

St. Louis has always had a strong soccer culture because of all the old Germans and Italians who settled in the city, right? Maybe a 25,000-seat soccer stadium on the riverfront would be a really good backup plan. Poach the LA Galaxy, world keeps turnin'.

And there should be a bowl game in St. Louis. I mean, Shreveport has a bowl. What the hell. Who goes to Shreveport?

[LMU]

St. Louis has always had a strong soccer culture because of all the old Germans and Italians who settled in the city, right? Maybe a 25,000-seat soccer stadium on the riverfront would be a really good backup plan. Poach the LA Galaxy, world keeps turnin'.

And there should be a bowl game in St. Louis. I mean, Shreveport has a bowl. What the hell. Who goes to Shreveport?

You sure it's not due to all the Bosnians?

[colortv]

At the St. Louis stadium presentation the guy mentioned NFL bylaws as far as what bars a team from moving when it comes to good faith efforts by the city to keep the team.

Can anyone elaborate? What kind of barrier does Kroenke face in unilaterally moving the team?

[STL FANATIC]

St. Louis has always had a strong soccer culture because of all the old Germans and Italians who settled in the city, right? Maybe a 25,000-seat soccer stadium on the riverfront would be a really good backup plan. Poach the LA Galaxy, world keeps turnin'.

And there should be a bowl game in St. Louis. I mean, Shreveport has a bowl. What the hell. Who goes to Shreveport?

You sure it's not due to all the Bosnians?

In all seriousness, the Bosnians might be the ones keeping it going. But yeah, St. Louis used to be the US Soccer capital, with many of the players coming from the Hill neighborhood, St. Louis' italian neighborhood. You're likely right about the German influence as well.

Today soccer is in a weird spot in St. Louis. It's popular, but the various pro teams that have given it a go haven't worked out great, and there hasn't been a deep pocketed owner to put them on the big stage. There's a USL Pro team getting ready to start, and I hope it will finally be the one that catches on. I've always been confident that MLS soccer would catch on—you can't always gauge top league support based on minor league support, but it's not irrelevant either.

Should they build/commit to build this stadium, or as admiral suggests a smaller soccer only stadium (which seems unlikely, but I'd support that idea), it might help things. It doesn't make an owner appear out of thin air, but it would probably put anyone considering it over the edge if they knew they weren't going to have to go through the fight and planning for a stadium.

Soccer is, to me, actually a huge component of this. I know there's no guarantee the MLS comes, but man I hope so. You put a soccer team there, and suddenly it's not just an 8 days a year venue.

[STL FANATIC]

At the St. Louis stadium presentation the guy mentioned NFL bylaws as far as what bars a team from moving when it comes to good faith efforts by the city to keep the team.

Can anyone elaborate? What kind of barrier does Kroenke face in unilaterally moving the team?

Here's the pertinent parts from the Minnesota Star-Tribune back when the Vikings were flirting with LA. I've quoted the most relevant in this situation.

Article 4.3 also confirms that no club has an "entitlement" to relocate simply because it perceives an opportunity for enhanced club revenues in another location. Indeed, League traditions disfavor relocations if a club has been well-supported and financially successful and is expected to remain so. Relocation pursuant to Article 4.3 may be available, however, if a club's viability in its home territory is threatened by circumstances that cannot be remedied by diligent efforts of the club working, as appropriate, in conjunction with the League Office, or if compelling League interests warrant a franchise relocation.

A. Negotiations Prior to League Consideration

1. Because League policy favors stable team-community relations, clubs are obligated to work diligently and in good faith to obtain and to maintain suitable stadium facilities in their home territories, and to operate in a manner that maximizes fan support in their current home community. A club may not, however, grant exclusive negotiating rights to a community or potential stadium landlord other than one in its current home territory.

http://www.startribune.com/politics/statelocal/148181325.html

The suggestion that Kroenke wouldn't be following the bylaws is basically that he has not engaged in good faith negotiations to come to a stadium deal in St. Louis, and that he's attempting the move to LA despite that for the sake of his own financial gain.

Some have argued that engaging in the lease dictated arbitration process was enough, and/or that St. Louis' unsatisfactory proposal as part of that same process nullifies the good faith requirement. I find that unlikely, though that doesn't mean I'm confident the NFL will enforce their rules.

[FiddySicks]

My dad graduated from St. Louis University way back in the 1950s, and they actually ditched their football team in favor of a soccer team. Soccer, at one point (as has been stated), was HUGE in St. Louis.

Hey ST LOUIS FANS all those of you that did not want Rush Limbaugh buying part of the Rams, you know he would have likely kept them in St. Louis too, being from Cape Geradeau.

Yeah, I also hear that Donald Sterling is looking to help them get a new stadium in Ferguson, too.

[The_Admiral]

Piggybacking on being more than an eight-times-a-year venue, SSSs make good summer concert venues as well. Toyota Park runs several shows in the summer. I don't know what St. Louis is like as far as outdoor concert venues go but it certainly couldn't hurt to have a brand-new festival/stadium hybrid. Overall, there's probably more that you can do with a 25,000-seat place than a 65,000-seat place. It also won't cost damn near a billion dollars. Life after the Rams might be a big improvement if they get their ducks in a row.

[ninersdd]

Yeah, I also hear that Donald Sterling is looking to help them get a new stadium in Ferguson, too.

First pickup of free agency, Riley Cooper!

[Gothamite]

Those same NFL regulations allow the league to consider the relative size and value of the new and current market to the league's television contract. Anyone looking to "the rules" to prevent this move is grasping at straws.

This presentation was very nice but the details are worrying. 75% of the land they're proposing to use is owned by private entities, which they'll have to start negotiating with. Entities who know know exactly how many millions of dollars they're throwing around, and have been incentivized to hold out.

It's also being reported that the public financing portion won't even start for two years. They're expecting the Rams to just and wait for two years to see if they can even come up with it.

I said months ago that St. Louis needed to think outside the box, something like giving Kroenke land to develop, and come up with a home run. This is a solid single up the middle; good but I don't see how it's good enough.

[BBTV]

That's a good point. It's not like they're saying "this is what we're doing for the Rams". They're saying "this is what we kinda hope that we think we might be able to get done if we work out the details and get a million approvals and can get funding in two years - just hang on for a few more years (while someone else takes LA) and we'll let you know if we can do it."

[Cosmic]

This reminds me of some infamous proposals for downtown Buffalo over the years... giant domed entertainment center, sports complexes, giant aquarium, St. Louis-like arch, etc. "Well, no, we don't own the land and we're not sure how we're gonna pay for it and we don't really know if the market is there, but it's cool, huh?"