NFL Merry-Go-Round: Relocation Roundelay

[goalieboy82]

3 hours ago, the admiral said:

 

One big problem is that it has insufficient parking but also isn't particularly accessible by rail, either. The closest L station is Roosevelt, and that's still two-thirds of a mile or so away, which is no fun in BEAR WEATHER. It's about two miles from Union and Ogilvie. The electric lines to Millennium Park stop at 18th and the Museum Campus on either end of the field, but unless you're coming from Flossmoor, Hyde Park or Northwest Indiana, that doesn't do you a whole hell of a lot of good (no one is taking the train to Soldier Field from 107th/Cottage or whatever, lol). But again, there being a station at Arlington Park also isn't a miracle solution, because that only helps people on the Northwest Line, and it's the lines to the North Shore and Naperville that would carry the most Bears fans. Everyone will just be driving to the game, and 53, a state route that pretends it's an interstate past where the Eisenhower ends, doesn't have the capacity for that traffic.

 

One of the biggest problems with Soldier Field is an intentional one: its capacity is very low. I think it's the smallest stadium in the league now with the Oakland Coliseum gone and the Chargers no longer borrowing an MLS stadium. But they want it this way--what it lacks in gen-pop seats, it more than makes up for in luxury suites and very expensive seats close to the field. I know I always tease ol' what's-his-name about the Miami Dolphins positioning themselves as a "luxury brand," but I think the Bears, based in Lake Forest, the capital of old Chicago money, really do see themselves as a product for the wealthy. Any suburban stadium will have even less of a democratic spirit than the current Soldier Field does, and that's saying something. The seats for normal fans will be even more compromised by the need to have more and better luxury amenities. 

 

Renovating Soldier Field turned out to be a huge and costly mistake. It wasn't worth romanticizing in the first place. At the turn of the millennium, there was ample undeveloped land south and west of the Loop that could have fit a new stadium. It's all condos now, of course. Soldier Field could have been downsized to a municipal facility and left alone architecturally.

only thing i can think of about Chicago:

 

[goalieboy82]

On 9/24/2021 at 10:30 PM, dont care said:

Jacksonville has nothing but the football team and a navy base, and a good port for shipping, Nashville actually has attractions outside of the football team.

i think the NFL was thinking with all the Navy people going in and out of Jacksonville that they would become fans of the Jags or already be fans so they would always have fans there (even in the most lean years)

[OnWis97]

I hadn't been aware, until tuning into Wisconsin's embarrassing performance against Notre Dame, that Solider Field had existed for several decades hosting random games and a full Notre Dame season in like 1929 while the Bears played at Wrigley.  So it doesn't seem like it's all that important a part of team lore. It seems like the smart move would have been to move away from it rather than put all that money into the renovations (which don't seem that long ago, but I suppose it's about 20 years).

 

Generally speaking, I like urban/downtown venues, though with the NFL's ten home dates, I sometimes am ok with finding a giant plot of land on the highway. I guess I can't speak to what this will do to the psyche of the city, but I don't know that a nice location for an NFL stadium is that meaningful.

[The_Admiral]

The Chicago Cardinals split time between Really Old Soldier Field (the neverending horseshoe version before they sloppily closed it off) and Comiskey, I think. There are still extremely South Side people who root for the Packers to remain in opposition to the North Side Bears -- or at least children of those people.

 

I don't insist upon downtown football stadiums and in fact it's usually a bad idea. I just don't want the Bears near me, personally.

[spartacat_12]

I guess it isn't as important for football to have stadiums in the city compared to other sports, but it's pretty crazy that if this happens Chicago would be the only North American city with 3 or more Big 4 teams that doesn't have a single one playing in the downtown core.

[BBTV]

3 minutes ago, spartacat_12 said:

I guess it isn't as important for football to have stadiums in the city compared to other sports, 

 

I get the sentiment, but as someone who lives in a city and doesn't drive, it'd suck to either not be able to go to games or have to find some other way to get there.   Not an insurmountable hurdle, but the benefits public transportation to events with 10s of thousands of people can't be overlooked, especially as more and more people in cities are giving up cars.

[spartacat_12]

14 minutes ago, BBTV said:

I get the sentiment, but as someone who lives in a city and doesn't drive, it'd suck to either not be able to go to games or have to find some other way to get there.   Not an insurmountable hurdle, but the benefits public transportation to events with 10s of thousands of people can't be overlooked, especially as more and more people in cities are giving up cars.

 

Oh I 100% agree with you. I currently live in Toronto without a car, and it's so convenient getting to any sporting event. Meanwhile, my hometown hockey team is struggling to figure out a way to get an arena built downtown.

 

But at least with football you just have to worry about transporting fans 8 or 9 times a season, with almost all of these games being on the weekend. I know for Bills games there are usually a lot of shuttle options from nearby areas.

 

It seems like Washington is the only market where people are petitioning to have them move from the suburbs, but maybe there are other fanbases that aren't as loud.

[The_Admiral]

4 hours ago, spartacat_12 said:

I guess it isn't as important for football to have stadiums in the city compared to other sports, but it's pretty crazy that if this happens Chicago would be the only North American city with 3 or more Big 4 teams that doesn't have a single one playing in the downtown core.

I mean, if one were to be extremely pedantic about where the southern limits of "downtown Chicago" lie, Soldier Field is south of Roosevelt. I do not acknowledge the legitimacy of a "South Loop" that extends to like 26th or whatever.

 

3 hours ago, spartacat_12 said:

It seems like Washington is the only market where people are petitioning to have them move from the suburbs, but maybe there are other fanbases that aren't as loud.

That's a really weird case to me, too, because if you would think there'd be a fanbase vociferously arguing to play in the suburbs and escape The Blacks, it'd be the Skins fans in Northern Virginia, the suburbiest of suburbias.

[ltjets21]

On 6/18/2021 at 9:31 PM, RyanMcD29 said:

Looks like the Bills will stick to Orchard Park rather than downtown Buffalo. Might open up a season or two scenario where they have to play in Toronto/Syracuse/Penn State/etc. for their home games, though https://www.wivb.com/sports/buffalo-bills/bills-planning-new-outdoor-stadium-in-orchard-park/

Why do the Bills need a new stadium but the Chiefs can renovate Arrowhead? I feel like similar renovations could be made to Ralph Wilson Stadium.

[dont care]

6 minutes ago, ltjets21 said:

Why do the Bills need a new stadium but the Chiefs can renovate Arrowhead? I feel like similar renovations could be made to Ralph Wilson Stadium.

Because Ralph wilson is a glorified high school stadium. No amount of renovations could make that stadium even on par with arrowhead before it’s renovations 

[Brian in Boston]

11 hours ago, spartacat_12 said:

I guess it isn't as important for football to have stadiums in the city compared to other sports, but it's pretty crazy that if this happens Chicago would be the only North American city with 3 or more Big 4 teams that doesn't have a single one playing in the downtown core.

If the United Center is located outside of Chicago's "downtown core", I'd argue that the same can be said for Soldier Field. I'd estimate that the stadium is just under 2 miles from the center of the Loop, which is the heart of Chicago's downtown core. Meanwhile, the United Center seems as though it's just over 2 miles from the center of the Loop. The true "Big Four" sports facility outliers in Chicago are the ballparks, which I'd put at 4 to 5 miles from the heart of the Loop.

Of course, it all depends on how the denizens of various cities define what constitutes their respective "downtowns". Fenway Park is about the same distance from Boston's Financial District or Downtown Crossing as Soldier Field or the United Center are from the center of Chicago's Loop. Yet, no Bostonian that I know would ever describe Fenway as being located in "Downtown Boston". It's an urban ballpark in a Boston neighborhood, but said neighborhood isn't considered "downtown". Hell, Bostonians are so parochial that most wouldn't consider the location of TD Garden to be "downtown"... and it isn't located more than a mile walk from Downtown Crossing.  

I'd have to think that the venues of Detroit's "Big Four" franchises, as a group, are closest to the downtown core when compared to other American markets. Little Caesars Arena can't be much more than a mile from the central business district, while Comerica Park and Ford Field are probably less than that distance.

[leopard88]

8 hours ago, Brian in Boston said:

If the United Center is located outside of Chicago's "downtown core", I'd argue that the same can be said for Soldier Field. I'd estimate that the stadium is just under 2 miles from the center of the Loop, which is the heart of Chicago's downtown core. Meanwhile, the United Center seems as though it's just over 2 miles from the center of the Loop. The true "Big Four" sports facility outliers in Chicago are the ballparks, which I'd put at 4 to 5 miles from the heart of the Loop.

Of course, it all depends on how the denizens of various cities define what constitutes their respective "downtowns". Fenway Park is about the same distance from Boston's Financial District or Downtown Crossing as Soldier Field or the United Center are from the center of Chicago's Loop. Yet, no Bostonian that I know would ever describe Fenway as being located in "Downtown Boston". It's an urban ballpark in a Boston neighborhood, but said neighborhood isn't considered "downtown". Hell, Bostonians are so parochial that most wouldn't consider the location of TD Garden to be "downtown"... and it isn't located more than a mile walk from Downtown Crossing.  

I'd have to think that the venues of Detroit's "Big Four" franchises, as a group, are closest to the downtown core when compared to other American markets. Little Caesars Arena can't be much more than a mile from the central business district, while Comerica Park and Ford Field are probably less than that distance.

 

Baltimore doesn't have NHL or NBA teams.  Otherwise, it would be pretty similar to Detroit.   Royal Farms Arena is in the middle of the downtown street grid (next to the University Center/Baltimore Street light rail stop near the center of the map) and Camden Yards and M&T Bank Stadium are pretty close.

[B-Rich]

15 hours ago, Brian in Boston said:

I'd have to think that the venues of Detroit's "Big Four" franchises, as a group, are closest to the downtown core when compared to other American markets. 

 

6 hours ago, leopard88 said:

Baltimore doesn't have NHL or NBA teams.  Otherwise, it would be pretty similar to Detroit.   

 

The New Orleans Saints (and Pelicans)  I think would "be in that number" (pun intended):

[sky1324]

Throw Charlotte in there as well - not only is Bank of American Stadium and Spectrum Center Uptown, but so is Truist Field.

 

[The_Admiral]

20 hours ago, Brian in Boston said:

If the United Center is located outside of Chicago's "downtown core", I'd argue that the same can be said for Soldier Field. I'd estimate that the stadium is just under 2 miles from the center of the Loop, which is the heart of Chicago's downtown core. Meanwhile, the United Center seems as though it's just over 2 miles from the center of the Loop. The true "Big Four" sports facility outliers in Chicago are the ballparks, which I'd put at 4 to 5 miles from the heart of the Loop.

 

It's not in the Loop, but I'd struggle not to call Soldier Field "downtown." The lakefront attractions from Navy Pier to Northerly Island can all broadly be considered "downtown Chicago" for lack of a better term.

 

Even though Soldier Field would technically be like 1600S to the UC's 1900W, it doesn't feel as if they're equally far from the Loop when you're there. The corner of State/Madison, despite being the origin of the city grid, doesn't feel particularly important. If I didn't know and had to guess, I'd put it at Clark/Randolph between City Hall and the Daley Center.

[Brian in Boston]

7 hours ago, B-Rich said:

The New Orleans Saints (and Pelicans)  I think would "be in that number" (pun intended):

Well, there's certainly no arguing that the pair of "Big Four" franchises New Orleans plays host to are located in the city's downtown core.

It dawns on me that if the Target Center played host to the Twin Cities' NHL franchise, all of said market's "Big Four" teams would be in the heart of downtown Minneapolis. Target Field and U.S. Bank Stadium are a mile from one another, with Target Center being slightly closer to the Vikings' home... maybe 9/10 of a mile from the football stadium. Government Center Park and the Star Tribune Media Company headquarters building pretty much split the difference.  

 

 

[Brian in Boston]

26 minutes ago, the admiral said:

It's not in the Loop, but I'd struggle not to call Soldier Field "downtown." The lakefront attractions from Navy Pier to Northerly Island can all broadly be considered "downtown Chicago" for lack of a better term.

I can't say that I'd argue with you. After all, as I pointed out, it all depends on how the denizens of various cities define what constitutes their respective "downtowns". Having spent two multi-year stints living in Chicago - once for two years, another for three - I'd be much more inclined to consider Soldier Field's lakefront location in the Near South Side a part of "downtown" than I would the United Center's environs on the West Side. It was only after training for the Chicago Marathon and becoming more familiar with the relative  proximity of each to the Loop that I came to realize that it wasn't as though one was situated cheek-by-jowl with downtown, while the other was located out in DuPage County.     

[The_Admiral]

Yeah, I can't think of anyone who would consider the Bears to play on the "near south side." It's firmly downtown. McCormick Place is pushing it.

 

I still have it in my head that the McCaskeys will screw this Arlington Heights deal up. Why not? They screw everything else up.

[MilSox]

On 9/29/2021 at 5:28 PM, the admiral said:

The Chicago Cardinals split time between Really Old Soldier Field (the neverending horseshoe version before they sloppily closed it off) and Comiskey, I think. There are still extremely South Side people who root for the Packers to remain in opposition to the North Side Bears -- or at least children of those people.

 

I don't insist upon downtown football stadiums and in fact it's usually a bad idea. I just don't want the Bears near me, personally.

 

That explains that weird strand of Sox-Pack fans that I never knew existed until I moved to the city. Speaking of which, it completely confounds me that the NFL put the Gridbirds in the NFC East after the merger, and right after they became another St. Louis Cardinals. 

 

You'd think I'd have more contempt for Bears fans now that I live in Chicago, but I actually feel bad for them. They deserve so much better than the shortsighted moves the McCaskeys have been making since the day before forever.

[The_Admiral]

6 minutes ago, NicDB said:

it completely confounds me that the NFL put the Gridbirds in the NFC East after the merger, and right after they became another St. Louis Cardinals.

 

The merger realignment lore has been discussed to death but I'm pretty sure it came down to the east-coast power brokers making sure they had a designated buttmonkey.