NFL Merry-Go-Round: Relocation Roundelay

[Cosmic]

5 hours ago, gosioux76 said:

 

That's kind of my point. A lot of these older American cities have a lot more going for them than just sports franchises but it becomes really hard for that narrative to overtake the ones that suggest they're withering away.

 

Despite all those qualities you just described,  the Buffalo MSA lost 3,170 people between July 2020 and July 2021, according to new Census data released last week. It's possible that that number represents a significant decline from prior losses. But either way, a loss is a loss, and I have yet to see a city say: "Yeah, we're good with being smaller.  It suits us." 

 

 

I'm not really sure what you're going for. If a major league team leaves a Rust Belt city, it's going to be "another business leaves town", not "I guess the real football team was the Frank Lloyd Wright buildings we didn't demolish along the way".

 

Shrinking a city is hard because you still have that physical footprint to fill up. Changing that footprint requires a lot of cash and heavy-handed government power. On the one hand, Buffalo was the second-largest city in the country at one point, and absolutely nobody thinks that's coming back. On the other hand, yeah, I do think they would like to get back to that 5-600K that they had at one point, so 50/50 on whether Buffalo accepts itself as a smaller city.

[gosioux76]

15 hours ago, Cosmic said:

I'm not really sure what you're going for. If a major league team leaves a Rust Belt city, it's going to be "another business leaves town", not "I guess the real football team was the Frank Lloyd Wright buildings we didn't demolish along the way".

 

Shrinking a city is hard because you still have that physical footprint to fill up. Changing that footprint requires a lot of cash and heavy-handed government power. On the one hand, Buffalo was the second-largest city in the country at one point, and absolutely nobody thinks that's coming back. On the other hand, yeah, I do think they would like to get back to that 5-600K that they had at one point, so 50/50 on whether Buffalo accepts itself as a smaller city.

 

Somewhere in there we got our wires crossed. I wouldn't suggest that shrinking equal a physical downsizing. Maybe over time. I'm just saying that cities that were once much larger, in general, are unwilling to accept that this is just how they are now, and should go about reinventing themselves rather than clinging to old glories. 

 

You live in Buffalo, so I'd defer to you on this, but I'd be really surprised if losing a major league team would be treated like just another business leaving town. I have to imagine that Buffalo's broader regional identity is inextricably linked to the Bills. But that's just the perspective of an outsider. 

 

I guess I'm just building upon the point I've made earlier, that cities still overvalue their pro sports franchises because of the stature they bring, and they're unwilling to accept that the other things that make a city great are good enough. So we have this tendency to throw resources their way as an act of preservation because cities are unwilling to take on the task of reinventing themselves without those pro teams. 

 

Lots of generalizations in there, I realize, but I see a lot of this happening here in St. Louis. It was once the nation's second- or third-biggest city but last year fell out of the top 20 for the first time. People here talk about the remarkable arts institutions and the architecture, the world-class health care and higher education institutions, the sports franchises, and then a lot about the past. People still bring up the 1904 World's Fair as if it happened yesterday.  But like other aging, Midwest and Rust Belt cities, it's losing population and stature. The loss of the Rams, with help from Stan Kroenke's scorched-Earth exit, was just one of many hits along the way. Today, the discussion continues to be around how to turn things around, how to get us back to where we were. But there's little discussion of reinvention, or of being something different.  For cities that were once grand, settling into the middle seems paralyzingly difficult.

 

EDIT: apologies for droning on about this. I just find it to be an interesting discussion.

[BBTV]

22 hours ago, dont care said:

Jacksonville is probably worse because of the jaguars rather than seeing any benefit, the super bowl just made the city even more of a cesspool.

 

The Super Bowl gave so many people a negative opinion of Jacksonville, when before, they had either no opinion, were at least curious, or had a positive opinion.  Unless there was a legit economic gain from hosting the actual event, I'd say it was overall a negative for them.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Cosmic said:

On the one hand, Buffalo was the second-largest city in the country at one point, and absolutely nobody thinks that's coming back. 

 

Is that true?  How is that possible considering for most of the 18th and 19th century, New York, Philadelphia, and eventually Chicago dominated the population?

[Cosmic]

5 hours ago, BBTV said:

Is that true?  How is that possible considering for most of the 18th and 19th century, New York, Philadelphia, and eventually Chicago dominated the population?

Well : censored:. When I read your post, I thought, "Well, he's probably right about Philly; maybe it was 3rd before Chicago took off." Then I made the mistake of looking it up, and the highest I can find Buffalo got was 8th. Maybe I'm remembering some bogus "fastest growing" statistic or something. But I don't think anyone thinks Buffalo is making it back to eighth, either.

 

5 hours ago, BBTV said:

The Super Bowl gave so many people a negative opinion of Jacksonville, when before, they had either no opinion, were at least curious, or had a positive opinion.  Unless there was a legit economic gain from hosting the actual event, I'd say it was overall a negative for them.  

My take on a Super Bowl in Buffalo has always been that some F-list celebrity would say they were bored, and our collective psyche would not forget it for 50 years.

[who do you think]

On 3/28/2022 at 6:19 PM, gosioux76 said:

This is a great point. But how do you pick from all of those cities with cheaper real estate? What goes into that equation? Certainly, it might be family connections, like your wife is from there or you visited there for a wedding once. But it's not at random, and cities are now competing against each other for the chance of selling themselves to new residents based upon their low cost of living. 

 

One thing that probably makes a difference? Pro sports. 

 

Again, not a justification for over-investing public money. But it's really difficult to discount the value we assign to pro sports when it comes to making a region stand apart from the rest.

 

Maybe my head is too far up my own ass, but... no! Absolutely not! I didn't move to where I am currently because of the Rays, Lightning, and/or Buccaneers and I don't know of anyone who has (and nobody here is originally from here). It would be asinine to let a f***ing sports team be the deciding factor on where you relocate your entire life to, and I say that as a guy who a) follows sports closely enough to have almost 300 posts on some Canadian message board focused on discussing sports team logos of all things, and b) had shaky reasons for moving in the first place and probably shouldn't have even done it in retrospect. My life is not better for having SPORTS!! in the area. If anything it's worse because Sundays during football season = unnecessary traffic and drunk drivers during the evening/nighttime.

 

In my head I've tossed around the idea of jumping to Chicago (apparently cost of living right now is decent compared to the rest of the country, but also a lot of frivolous taxes and if somebody coughs they'll shut down the city for two weeks?) or Columbus (also decent CoL relatively speaking and better job market than other bigger Ohio cities according to the internet, Ohio in general seems unlikely to ever become a "cool" place that becomes completely overrun by CA/NY/MA refugees)... I can promise you that sports teams or lack thereof aren't even a remote consideration here.

 

The only time I've ever seen anyone flog the local sports teams as a legitimate selling point for the city/area in question is realtors pandering to legitimately stupid people with any selling point they can possibly come up with and/or :censored:posting online trying to keep the area's image positive and the market pumped up (yes, this happens). On a related note, I despise realtors.

 

On 3/28/2022 at 6:19 PM, gosioux76 said:

I think @Magic Dynasty's post is a fabulous example of that. As a kid growing up, sports was a geography lesson. I knew places because I knew teams. Out of that list, I'd have presumed Providence and Virginia Beach were the smaller places based on that alone. That sort of impression sticks. 

 

SPORTS!! being your road map to understanding the layout of the country when you're a kid is one thing. SPORTS!! influencing major life decisions after you've reached adulthood is quite another.

[Red Comet]

Yeah, anyone moving to an area because of sports as a major reason is kind of dumb. It would be one thing it’s the place has good Internet, good schools and somewhere down the list you had “My favorite team in (x sports) plays here”. 
 

Crazy thing is, though? There are a lot of dumb people/politicians that think people would move because of sports as a major reason but in my personal case, we’ve had the Chiefs and Royals for over half a century, but people didn’t start really moving here until the mid-2010s when Google decided that we should be where they test out their Fiber service. But, let’s be real, the whole reason for paying for these stadiums is that it’s the modern equivalent of constructing great monuments to commemorate their rule more than anything that would actually benefit the city. 

Good luck to Buffalo and their people from here on out, they’ll need it. 

[Sport]

I don't think many people are moving somewhere specifically because the city has professional sports, but having major professional sports is an indicator that the city is large enough to lay claim to other desirable factors such as employment opportunities, an educated populace, diversity, good restaurants/nightlife, museums, large universities, good school systems, concert venues, and communities with which to get involved. There's cities, of course, that don't have major professional sports that have all those other things, there's cities that have major professional sports that have their own warts certainly, but if two cities are "equal" in every other way and one has pro teams while the other doesn't then it's not "dumb" that it might be the clincher for someone, especially now when thanks to increased remote work where you live has never been less important. Cleveland has one of the best symphony orchestras in the country - would anyone move there because of that alone? Of course not, but being able to boast that demonstrates there's other culture in the city. 

 

SPORTS!! (this is annoying, by the way) is just one part of the stew and I get why people in power fight to keep teams from leaving, especially if you're a smaller market. If the Bills ever left Buffalo then Buffalo is never getting back into the NFL. They're the Dayton Triangles at that point. Speaking of Dayton, that's a good example of what I'm talking about. I could live in Dayton if I wanted. I could buy a much bigger house, my commute to work would actually be slightly shorter, my parents would be an hour away in Columbus as opposed to two, but it's Dayton and Dayton doesn't have what I want in a city that Cincinnati largely does. Sports is one of a handful of factors. It's a luxury and not THE reason I moved here, but I like being able to go to a Major League Baseball game on a whim and be in a seat at the stadium in under 20 minutes. Why wouldn't I make that one of the factors if I were to consider a move to another city? 

 

[gosioux76]

I'll be honest, when I suggested that sports might play a factor in how people choose where they live, I figured it was just assumed that it wouldn't be the ONLY reason — let alone a singular deciding factor.  I never imagined anybody would interpret it that way.

 

@Sport's interpretation, though, is spot on, and that Dayton example is perfect.  If you're moving somewhere because it has lower cost-of-living and you have choices to make, an important part of that equation is looking at a city's amenities, which enhance quality of life. Professional sports are one piece of that. So if sports matter to you, and you happen to be choosing between a city that has them and one that doesn't, that's one potential advantage for the pro sports city.

 

I grew up in a rural area, and when I started my career 20+ years ago I wanted to do so in a big city. Whether that city had pro sports teams was absolutely a huge part of the calculus I used in making those decisions. But, by far, it wasn't the only thing. 

[sky1324]

Yeah I don't think anyone is choosing to live in a city specifically for the sports but sports are 100% a part of that equation. My dad, for example, wants to move to a city close to an MLB team because he's such a huge baseball fan. However, if it meant that much to him, he never would've moved to the Charlotte area in the first place. Wherever I end up I want to be near sports because I enjoy them so much. As many others have said, sports are indicative of a city's relative stature and thus its amenities beyond simply sportsball.

 

12 hours ago, Cosmic said:

Well : censored:. When I read your post, I thought, "Well, he's probably right about Philly; maybe it was 3rd before Chicago took off." Then I made the mistake of looking it up, and the highest I can find Buffalo got was 8th. Maybe I'm remembering some bogus "fastest growing" statistic or something. But I don't think anyone thinks Buffalo is making it back to eighth, either.

You may be thinking of Baltimore? It peaked at 2 from 1820-1850.

[infrared41]

On 3/30/2022 at 8:51 AM, Cosmic said:

Buffalo and Erie County are growing again. It's affordable, there's skiing in the winter and in the summer,

 

Edited for accuracy.

[tBBP]

I used to fancy what it'd be like to live up in the Buffalo area--but after living up here in the northern plains the past two years and change and dealing with all this winterhawk...winter hawk...I don't even know if I could do it. I mean yes it snows way more there than here, but the air temperatures may get colder longer here, because theres really no big vody water around here to help regulate. What else ain't around her to help regulate the weather? Big hills and/or mountains, and because of that, the WIND is the major issue out here, at least East River anyway, and when that wind get to cutting through your already frozen behind here, you can forget about it. 

 

On the plus side, though, that same wind helps during the 32 days of summer we get out here...evening and nighttime lows are still nice, cool and crisp, with barely any humidity to speak of. But then, it ain't like Sioux Falls is even gonna get a sniff of big-time pro sports around here (Unless you count the G-League team), so why am I even talking about this place up in here?? 

[MJWalker45]

21 hours ago, gosioux76 said:

 

Somewhere in there we got our wires crossed. I wouldn't suggest that shrinking equal a physical downsizing. Maybe over time. I'm just saying that cities that were once much larger, in general, are unwilling to accept that this is just how they are now, and should go about reinventing themselves rather than clinging to old glories. 

 

You live in Buffalo, so I'd defer to you on this, but I'd be really surprised if losing a major league team would be treated like just another business leaving town. I have to imagine that Buffalo's broader regional identity is inextricably linked to the Bills. But that's just the perspective of an outsider. 

I can speak a little bit on this. When the Spurs sold off the Stars and the Rampage to buyers in Las Vegas, everyone here started losing their minds that the Spurs were just prepping Vegas for when they moved there too.  Losing a pro team when you're the 7th biggest metro area in the country would be treated like a major loss. Even if the NFL decided to give a team to San Antonio, finding a big enough space for it that didn't require tearing down a good part of downtown or a nearby suburb would take a while. I know I've prattled on about this before, but San Antonio could have had a bigger reputation as a major league city. Failing to bring the first iteration of the San Jose Earthquakes, because the incoming mayor decided he wanted to kidnap the Saints, and failing to get a AAA park built for the Missions about 6 years ago has probably locked out those big league desires that the city had before 2013. But if the Spurs leave, we're left with the Missions Trail, Rodeo and Fiesta. All great things, but it'd be difficult to have people say Austin is more of a big league city than us. 

[Cosmic]

1 hour ago, infrared41 said:

 

Edited for accuracy.

10 days of summer is still summer!

 

And beautiful sunsets over the water, now that you mention it.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

Buffalo food is terrific. Especially if you don't care what your waistline looks like.

[Red Comet]

11 minutes ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

Buffalo food is terrific. Especially if you don't care what your waistline looks like.

Where should I go get wings then if I’m in Buffalo for whatever reason? Asking for a friend. 

[Cosmic]

23 minutes ago, Red Comet said:

Where should I go get wings then if I’m in Buffalo for whatever reason? Asking for a friend. 

The real answer is 99% of the random corner pizza places serve good, consistent wings. Pizza has a lot more variability. It's like trying to make a living selling crappy tacos in LA... you just wouldn't make it.

[Cosmic]

3 hours ago, QCS said:

You may be thinking of Baltimore? It peaked at 2 from 1820-1850

It was definitely something about Buffalo, but maybe just another local tall tale. There's a town whose "Welcome to..." sign claims to be the largest freshwater island in the world, and I only found out like two years ago that it's not remotely true in any way whatsoever.

[infrared41]

1 hour ago, Cosmic said:

10 days of summer is still summer!

 

10 days is a luxury. We were lucky to get 6 days of summer in Syracuse.

[B-Rich]

"Without the Vikings and Twins, we'd just be a cold Omaha."
                --- Hubert H. Humphrey, in describing  Minneapolis/St. Paul

 

The former Vice President and US Senator (and later, namesake of a publicly-owned stadium) was spot-on, and I believe succinctly sums up the situation as to why cities try to get in on "being in the big leagues", and why they try to stay as a "big league city".  

[infrared41]

2 hours ago, B-Rich said:

"Without the Vikings and Twins, we'd just be a cold Omaha."
                --- Hubert H. Humphrey, in describing  Minneapolis/St. Paul

 

The former Vice President and US Senator (and later, namesake of a publicly-owned stadium) was spot-on, and I believe succinctly sums up the situation as to why cities try to get in on "being in the big leagues", and why they try to stay as a "big league city".  

 

It's not like Omaha is some tropical paradise.